If I spend a concentrate fire token only, do I get to resolve the dial effect of Krennic (assuming I am in medium-long range), add 1 die as a result of Piett, and add 1 additional die from Ravager.

17 minutes ago, Wulff_Yularen said:

If I spend a concentrate fire token only, do I get to resolve the dial effect of Krennic (assuming I am in medium-long range), add 1 die as a result of Piett, and add 1 additional die from Ravager.

If you use Piett then you only get to resolve Krennic's effect for dial (not for token), and can't use Ravager. That's because both Krennic and Ravager triggers with the concentrate fire command and by using Piett that token is treated as a dial, so for both effects you didn't spend any token.

6 minutes ago, Lemmiwinks86 said:

If you use Piett then you only get to resolve Krennic's effect for dial (not for token), and can't use Ravager. That's because both Krennic and Ravager triggers with the concentrate fire command and by using Piett that token is treated as a dial, so for both effects you didn't spend any token.

I am confused as to why Ravager does not trigger. I am technically still spending the token, no? Piett is not saying I have not spent the token, just that the token spent is resolved "as if" I had spent a dial, right?

My reading would be that all that was spent was a token, so Piett triggers to increase the effect but does not cause a dial to have been spent on the command. So because a token was spent Ravager can be triggered as well as Krennic's "if a token was spent" ability but not his "if a dial was spent" ability as no dial was spent.

1 hour ago, Wulff_Yularen said:

I am confused as to why Ravager does not trigger. I am technically still spending the token, no? Piett is not saying I have not spent the token, just that the token spent is resolved "as if" I had spent a dial, right?

Yes, but Ravager says that "your CF tokens can either reroll 1 attack die or add 1 die to the attack pool...", meaning that this sentence is replacing the effect of the CF token. Using Piett you're not using the effect of the token because you are treating it as a dial.

1 hour ago, Chamberlin said:

My reading would be that all that was spent was a token, so Piett triggers to increase the effect but does not cause a dial to have been spent on the command. So because a token was spent Ravager can be triggered as well as Krennic's "if a token was spent" ability but not his "if a dial was spent" ability as no dial was spent.

You are indeed spending a token, but Piett makes you treat it as spending a dial for the purpose of resolving that command, and what triggers the effect of both Krennic and Ravager is precisely the resolution of that command (that's because the texts on both cards are preceeded by the CF symbol). So even if you have physically spent only a token, for the game purposes you've spent a dial.

22 minutes ago, Lemmiwinks86 said:

You are indeed spending a token, but Piett makes you treat it as spending a dial for the purpose of resolving that command, and what triggers the effect of both Krennic and Ravager is precisely the resolution of that command (that's because the texts on both cards are preceeded by the CF symbol). So even if you have physically spent only a token, for the game purposes you've spent a dial.

It seems an odd result that I would not be able to trigger Ravager upon spending a token "as if" it were a dial because tokens are the lesser version of their dial counterparts.

27 minutes ago, Lemmiwinks86 said:

You are indeed spending a token, but Piett makes you treat it as spending a dial for the purpose of resolving that command, and what triggers the effect of both Krennic and Ravager is precisely the resolution of that command (that's because the texts on both cards are preceeded by the CF symbol). So even if you have physically spent only a token, for the game purposes you've spent a dial.

I don't agree. 'As if you spent a dial' to me means you can add a dice. However you STILL spent just the token, not a dial, so Ravager, etc. should work.

summoning @Drasnighta . Opinions?

Short answer, if more detail is needed or Dras sees more to add.

Ravager or Krennic token ability is not being triggered. Because Piett can only resolve IF a token is spent, and its being turned into a dial.

This is NOT resolving the concentrate fire command. Which is what's needed.

You changed a token into a dial, and thus when you spend the dial on an attack, THAT is when you are resolving the command, for dial only. Not before.

Edited to remove. Forgot, you need to only spend token to get Pietts effect.

No token into dial+token.

2 hours ago, Karneck said:

Short answer, if more detail is needed or Dras sees more to add.

Ravager or Krennic token ability is not being triggered.

Does Krennic dial ability trigger? From my reading of Krennic card one is his abilities has to trigger, but there can be arguments on which one.

Let's say you only have Piett and Krennic on your ship. If you only spend a CF token and consume the CF dial effect to trigger Krennic, does Wulff allow you to regain the token since you "spent" it? I would think you regain the token.

Wulff and Ravager have the same requirement, which is that a CF token be "spent". For example, if you only had Ravager, you can elect to "spend" a token to resolve Ravager's effect.

Per the rules reference, you spend a token to resolve it and therefore these two actions are different. Which is why I think you can resolve both Ravager and Krennic in my example above. Not 100 percent sure though.

2 hours ago, PT106 said:

Does Krennic dial ability trigger? From my reading of Krennic card one is his abilities has to trigger, but there can be arguments on which one.

So it is a dial, so yes, on the attack you choose to use the dial, Krennics dial ability could be used, but not the token effect.

Let’s get one thing out of the way:

Krennic does not give you the token ability. Piett allows you to behave as though you are resolving a command dial “ instead ” of a token. Meaning he specifically excludes any of the benefits or effects of using a token, because you do not treat this command as though you are spending one.

More tenuously:

I therefore put forward that Wulff doesn’t work with Piett at all, because there is no window in which he could trigger to retrieve that token without treating that command as though it were a token, which Piett specifically tells you not to do.

1 hour ago, Wulff_Yularen said:

Quote

Let's say you only have Piett and Krennic on your ship. If you only spend a CF token and consume the CF dial effect to trigger Krennic, does Wulff allow you to regain the token since you "spent" it? I would think you regain the token.

You are "spending" the token to turn it INTO a dial with Pietts ability.
Wulff does allow you to regain the token, yes. The token WAS spent, but it was NOT to resolve the concentrace fire command, but for different effect.

Quote

Wulff and Ravager have the same requirement, which is that a CF token be "spent". For example, if you only had Ravager, you can elect to "spend" a token to resolve Ravager's effect.

Mostly Correct, Wulff gains a token back if it was "spent" (not discarded), he doesn't care what it was "spent" for.
Ravager requires that a token is "spent" as part of resolving the concentrare fire command.

Quote

Per the rules reference, you spend a token to resolve it and therefore these two actions are different. Which is why I think you can resolve both Ravager and Krennic in my example above. Not 100 percent sure though.

Without taking into account other card abilities affecting things, If you spend a dial and token together, yes you can use both Ravager and Krennic together on one attack, there is no issues with that at all.

Again to state, when you choose to use Pietts ability, you are "spending" ONLY a token to turn it INTO a dial. This is NOT resolving the concentrate fire command.
Now that you have the dial, you can spend that dial on any attack of your choosing, however, you can ONLY spend the dial, even if you somehow managed to gain the token back. Because you choose to resolve that command by spending ONLY a token (which piett turns into a dial with his card ability.)

This is why you can't do Token -> Piett into Dial, and magically get to spend another token.
Because you have already chosen to do JUST the token for that command.

@Karneck I don't get this. Piett says if you spent only a command token instead of a dial, you can tap him, the the command resolves AS IF you had spent a dial instead. At no point you're actually exchanging the token for a dial. You spend the token, not a dial, so Wulff should work. Then when you roll dice, instead of getting a reroll you get to add a die. Nowhere does it say you actually exchange that token for a dial, and it does say 'when you spend only a command token...' So a token is being spent, not a dial. Hmm?

1 hour ago, Darth Lupine said:

@Karneck I don't get this. Piett says if you spent only a command token instead of a dial, you can tap him, the the command resolves AS IF you had spent a dial instead. At no point you're actually exchanging the token for a dial. You spend the token, not a dial, so Wulff should work. Then when you roll dice, instead of getting a reroll you get to add a die. Nowhere does it say you actually exchange that token for a dial, and it does say 'when you spend only a command token...' So a token is being spent, not a dial. Hmm?

Ok, I'll walk through the process, I absolutely understand it is complicated and it was something that also took me awhile.

For this example, we will use the example that it is an SSD equipped with Piett, Wulff, Krennic and Ravager.
For this example, we are going to say that the SSD already has a concentrate fire token on the SSD. When the SSD is activated, it revealed a dial showing a engineering command and resolved that command.

Later in the activation, that SSD wants to shoot at a target very badly, during the attack step, which is when you can choose to resolve a concentrare fire command. You decide you want to use Pietts ability for this attack.
You must "SPEND" just only a token in order for Pietts ability to work, what follows is complicated but is the procedure.

The token has been "spent", but it has not yet resolved its command because you haven't done any modifying effect to the attack pool (neither added a die or rerolled a die)
Exhaust Wulff, as you "spent" the token. You get that token back, all Wulff cares about, is if a token was "spent". Not if a command was actually resolved.

Exhaust Piett, you now exchange the "spent" token " As if it had spent a dial of the same type instead " This has now changed the token INTO a dial. It is no longer a token, it is now a dial. Dial instead of Token.
However, you still, have not yet resolved its command because you haven't done any modifying effect to the attack pool (neither added a die or rerolled a die)

You now resolve the concentrate fire command AS a Dial. As only a Dial is being "spent". Thus the Concentrate fire command only resolves its dial effect, and cannot resolve its token effect. Because the token was changed into a dial.

Thus Krennic can only use his ability as it relates to the Concentrate Fire Dial, and not also the Token. As no token was spent, a dial was spent. That is why also Ravager cannot add or reroll a die, because no token concentrate fire was resolved, only the dial.


Did this help?

19 hours ago, Karneck said:

Ok, I'll walk through the process, I absolutely understand it is complicated and it was something that also took me awhile.

For this example, we will use the example that it is an SSD equipped with Piett, Wulff, Krennic and Ravager.
For this example, we are going to say that the SSD already has a concentrate fire token on the SSD. When the SSD is activated, it revealed a dial showing a engineering command and resolved that command.

Later in the activation, that SSD wants to shoot at a target very badly, during the attack step, which is when you can choose to resolve a concentrare fire command. You decide you want to use Pietts ability for this attack.
You must "SPEND" just only a token in order for Pietts ability to work, what follows is complicated but is the procedure.

The token has been "spent", but it has not yet resolved its command because you haven't done any modifying effect to the attack pool (neither added a die or rerolled a die)
Exhaust Wulff, as you "spent" the token. You get that token back, all Wulff cares about, is if a token was "spent". Not if a command was actually resolved.

Exhaust Piett, you now exchange the "spent" token " As if it had spent a dial of the same type instead " This has now changed the token INTO a dial. It is no longer a token, it is now a dial. Dial instead of Token.
However, you still, have not yet resolved its command because you haven't done any modifying effect to the attack pool (neither added a die or rerolled a die)

You now resolve the concentrate fire command AS a Dial. As only a Dial is being "spent". Thus the Concentrate fire command only resolves its dial effect, and cannot resolve its token effect. Because the token was changed into a dial.

Thus Krennic can only use his ability as it relates to the Concentrate Fire Dial, and not also the Token. As no token was spent, a dial was spent. That is why also Ravager cannot add or reroll a die, because no token concentrate fire was resolved, only the dial.


Did this help?

Not really. I understand what you are trying to say, mind you. I simply disagree with your interpretation.

I don't believe the token gets 'changed' into a dial. Let's assume Wulf is not on board. You spend the token. That token is now gone, and so unavailable to be changed into anything. You now apply Piett. The token is resolved 'as if' which to me simply means you get to add a dice instead, but you still spent a token, NOT a dial.

12 minutes ago, Darth Lupine said:

Not really. I understand what you are trying to say, mind you. I simply disagree with your interpretation.

I don't believe the token gets 'changed' into a dial. Let's assume Wulf is not on board. You spend the token. That token is now gone, and so unavailable to be changed into anything. You now apply Piett. The token is resolved 'as if' which to me simply means you get to add a dice instead, but you still spent a token, NOT a dial.

That would mean you are not treating the command “as if you had spent a dial.” There’s no reason to assume any aspect of the command is an exception to Piett’s card effect unless it is explicitly indicated to be one.

45 minutes ago, Darth Lupine said:

Not really. I understand what you are trying to say, mind you. I simply disagree with your interpretation.

I don't believe the token gets 'changed' into a dial. Let's assume Wulf is not on board. You spend the token. That token is now gone, and so unavailable to be changed into anything. You now apply Piett. The token is resolved 'as if' which to me simply means you get to add a dice instead, but you still spent a token, NOT a dial.

Then please define to me what "Instead" means.
You are free to disagree, but it does not mean that you are correct.

Also per RRG
"If a dial, token, die, or other component is spent as part of a cards effects cost, that component does not also produce its normal effect."

Meaning when you spent that token, and then use Piett on it. You are not producing its normal effect, as the card effect has changed it. In this case, from a token, into a dial.

6 hours ago, Karneck said:

Then please define to me what "Instead" means.
You are free to disagree, but it does not mean that you are correct.

Also per RRG
"If a dial, token, die, or other component is spent as part of a cards effects cost, that component does not also produce its normal effect."

Meaning when you spent that token, and then use Piett on it. You are not producing its normal effect, as the card effect has changed it. In this case, from a token, into a dial.

Oh, I'm not saying I'm necessarily correct. I'm just trying to understand this.

You just hit on where my issue lies. What changes its the effect produced. The component spent does not change. So you're not changing the token into a dial, you're simply changing the effect it's producing. That's my issue as I see it.

Again, I'm not saying I'm necessarily correct, just saying it can be looked at this way. From a certain point of view. 😆

I appreciate the tenacity your showing here. You want to understand not just why the engine works, but the internals of it all as well.
I can absolutely respect that and I encourage you in this effort, how can I help with that?

2 hours ago, Karneck said:

I appreciate the tenacity your showing here. You want to understand not just why the engine works, but the internals of it all as well.
I can absolutely respect that and I encourage you in this effort, how can I help with that?

I really appreciate your understanding!

Ok let's assume Wulff is on board Ravager, having some caf with Krennic.

We have a CF token on hand, and Piett in command.

We go about our turn, and we get to fire.

We roll the dice pool. Good. Then we spend the token. Wulff goes, 'oh, look! A token!' And 'rescues' it. So far so good.....and here starts my conundrum.

Never mind the rescued token and Wulff, we are good there, right? Right.

so now we have an ALREADY SPENT TOKEN. The effect however has NOT resolved yet. Piett goes, 'oh look, a CF using only a token!! Woot!!' And does his thing, which to me simply means I can now choose to add a die to the pool as opposed to a reroll. I don't understand this as somehow changing the actual token spent into a dial. As a matter f fact, I find this improbable, seeing THE TOKEN IS ALREADY SPENT. At no point in this sequence is a DIAL spent. A TOKEN is spent. The only thing that changes is how the token can be resolved. But what is being spent is a TOKEN, not a dial.

Furthermore, the token is not being spent as part of a cards effect....it's being spent as a fire command. The cards effect is simply modding the final result.

I see the Master a Gunner commander skills in RitR in a similar way.

By the time the effect resolves, the token is already spent and even rescued by Wulff, and sitting there on the ship card smirking evilly at the mayhem it's causing. 😂

Can you see my issue here? If I'm correct, then even tough the effect resolves as a dial, a token is still what got spent, and therefore any effect activated by a token should activate.

Or maybe I've been smoking too many deathsticks.

Part of it, is that you are firing on point with almost everything, but you have to take the entire rulebook into account to connect the rest of what is going on and how things are getting changed.

And a large part of that is related to the rule I quoted from RRG

Quote

"If a dial, token, die, or other component is spent as part of a cards effects cost, that component does not also produce its normal effect."

and the words " as if " and " instead " In Pietts wording.

So you've picked up the token said "I'm spending it". Now if you were to do NOTHING else, the spent token would resolve as a token only, for the concentrate fire command.

But that's not what is happening.

You "spent" the concentrate fire token, but before you do anything to "resolve" it, you have triggered the timing window of Wulff AND Piett. In this timing window, you have chosen to trigger both Wulffs and Pietts card ability.
ANYTIME something shares the same timing window, the PLAYER chooses the order in which to resolve those card effects. So in this timing window, you trigger Wulffs card ability, you have now regained a command token of the same type that was spent.

Now you can choose to trigger Pietts ability, as it is still in the same timing window.

Per RRG: "If a token is spent as part of a cards effect cost, that token does not also produce its normal effect".
To break it down, the spent token is still waiting there to be used, now you have decided you wanted it to be spent to resolve Pietts card effect, which costs a token to be spent to activate it. Since the token was spent in this way, it no longer produces that tokens effect / command.

Because now Piett has taken that token, and "resolves that command as if it had spent a dial of the same type instead ."

Meaning that the token has vanished, it never existed, in its place is now a DIAL resolving that command. Because that is what Pietts ability allows it to do, take the token and transform it into a beautiful dial.

Now that you have a dial, as given to you by Piett, you now resolve that command AS a Dial. As far as the gamestate is concerned at this point, the token never existed, because it was spent as part of a cards cost, and thus does not produce its normal effect.

To end it, even though a token was spent. You used a card ability to change that spent token, so that a dial was spent instead, the token never existed.


I understand it is hard to follow, but this is not a case of picking and choosing which wording you want to believe in for each moment in how this resolves. You need a firm understanding of the entire rulebook and apply all of it equally.

14 hours ago, Karneck said:

Part of it, is that you are firing on point with almost everything, but you have to take the entire rulebook into account to connect the rest of what is going on and how things are getting changed.

And a large part of that is related to the rule I quoted from RRG

and the words " as if " and " instead " In Pietts wording.

So you've picked up the token said "I'm spending it". Now if you were to do NOTHING else, the spent token would resolve as a token only, for the concentrate fire command.

But that's not what is happening.

You "spent" the concentrate fire token, but before you do anything to "resolve" it, you have triggered the timing window of Wulff AND Piett. In this timing window, you have chosen to trigger both Wulffs and Pietts card ability.
ANYTIME something shares the same timing window, the PLAYER chooses the order in which to resolve those card effects. So in this timing window, you trigger Wulffs card ability, you have now regained a command token of the same type that was spent.

Now you can choose to trigger Pietts ability, as it is still in the same timing window.

Per RRG: "If a token is spent as part of a cards effect cost, that token does not also produce its normal effect".
To break it down, the spent token is still waiting there to be used, now you have decided you wanted it to be spent to resolve Pietts card effect, which costs a token to be spent to activate it. Since the token was spent in this way, it no longer produces that tokens effect / command.

Because now Piett has taken that token, and "resolves that command as if it had spent a dial of the same type instead ."

Meaning that the token has vanished, it never existed, in its place is now a DIAL resolving that command. Because that is what Pietts ability allows it to do, take the token and transform it into a beautiful dial.

Now that you have a dial, as given to you by Piett, you now resolve that command AS a Dial. As far as the gamestate is concerned at this point, the token never existed, because it was spent as part of a cards cost, and thus does not produce its normal effect.

To end it, even though a token was spent. You used a card ability to change that spent token, so that a dial was spent instead, the token never existed.


I understand it is hard to follow, but this is not a case of picking and choosing which wording you want to believe in for each moment in how this resolves. You need a firm understanding of the entire rulebook and apply all of it equally.

Excellent breakdown, and I thank you for taking the time to explain it so well!

i am still having a problem with the rule you quoted. I understand a token, etc. spent as part of a cards effect doesn't produce its usual effect, etc. However.....that token was not spent as part of a cards effect, but was spent as part of a fire command.

I am however seeing your position very clearly. Thanks!

I think @Darth Lupine has a point. Spending the token isn't the cost of Piett's ability. Instead, Piett's ability changes the effect of resolving a command via a token. If this interpretation were true, @Karneck , how would that affect your argument?