Out of curiosity = how did everyone like Star Wars D20, Revised, or Saga Edition?

I'm surfing the web and the out of print price for the Saga Edition Core Rulebook on Amazon is going for 53.00 and the SAGA KOTOR Campaign book is 95.00. I've seen the SAGA Core go as high as 90.00 at one point.

My only experiences playing SW D20 were 1 shots at gaming conventions...and I usually had a blast playing, especially with the use of miniatures. I co-formed a Saga Edition group in early 2010 or 2011 but had to drop out due to personal reasons. It was enjoyable. There are local gaming clubs in my area that still run Revised games.

That being said, I never played or ran a D20/Revised/SAGA campaign....was it a good system for? What are people's experiences?

Before purchasing the AoR core last year I considered running a Revised game. But then came upon forums and threads across the internet and found a general consensus that FF Star Wars was a much better system.

I'm enjoying FF Star Wars as are everyone I introduced the system to. But in the back of my mind I wonder what running a D20 game would have been like.

I ran a fair amount of all three of those systems, and enjoyed them. The thing I liked most was that they made it easy for people who'd played D&D 3rd Edition to start playing Star Wars . It felt weird, at first, to be using the same rules, especially after a decade or more of using the d6 System for SW , but we became accustomed to it. Saga Edition did a good job, I think, of streamlining play, especially for high-level characters who could make multiple attacks per round.

-Nate

Saga was a pretty good system. Especially for those that like a good amount of crunch. However, combat did seem to drag on a little too much. My biggest complaint about the system is generating NPCs used the same rules as generating PCs, and thus takes forever. I love how FFG handles NPCs. You just give them what they need and call it a day.

9 hours ago, Sincereagape said:

I'm enjoying FF Star Wars as are everyone I introduced the system to. But in the back of my mind I wonder what running a D20 game would have been like.

It was fun while it lasted. Being D20, the mechanics were familiar and it was easy to get people going. Being D20, it suffered from everything I hate about that system, the top three being: combat is a grind; the inevitable march to invulnerability; the huge number of prestige classes you could never explore in a lifetime. I really despised the "force powers as a deck of cards" approach, so I rewrote that. People complained that Jedi outshone everyone level-for-level, but as we only had Jedi it didn't matter.

Basically, if you like D&D you'll probably enjoy it, there's enough Star Wars flavour to work with.

I actually preferred WEG philosophically to the D20 game, but it was kind of a chore to run. Counting up the results always seemed to bog down the results.

But FFG's game was a revolution for me. The whole narrative element was what I "knew in my heart" had been missing from all the previous games I ever played. So I ain't never going back.

While I do own the SW d20 Revised core rules, my only game experience with them was the KotOR I computer game (which I enjoyed back in the day). I came primarily from the D&D 1e, 2e, 3.x, and Pathfinder systems, so it was no stretch to understand SW d20 Revised.

I also own most of the SW Saga Edition rulebooks*, and love that system for its "d20 Plus" take on SW. I've played it a few times as a player and have enjoyed it. IMHO, it feels more like SW than d20 Revised does. Although - particularly for very small groups whose members dislike playing more than one PC each - it can be a good idea to toss 3.5's Unearthed Arcana's gestalt rules on top of SE. That way the characters don't get a better action economy, but they do get a wider spread of abilities to handle more situations. We also used a modified version of the Jedi Academy Training Manual's optional rule for daily Force Points.

* My only regret is that I never got my hands on a print copy of the Knights of the Old Republic era sourcebook for SW SE. Like Sincereagape mentioned, the current prices are ludicrous.

All of which is not to say that I don't enjoy FFG take on SW. There is a certain freedom to not having to figure out how many battlemat squares one's Force power is affecting. Although FFG's mechanics do have a few drawbacks too (e.g., the difficulty of keeping track of relative range, the increasingly higher costs of opening new specializations).

11 hours ago, Sincereagape said:

Out of curiosity = how did everyone like Star Wars D20, Revised, or Saga Edition?

I'm surfing the web and the out of print price for the Saga Edition Core Rulebook on Amazon is going for 53.00 and the SAGA KOTOR Campaign book is 95.00. I've seen the SAGA Core go as high as 90.00 at one point.

My only experiences playing SW D20 were 1 shots at gaming conventions...and I usually had a blast playing, especially with the use of miniatures. I co-formed a Saga Edition group in early 2010 or 2011 but had to drop out due to personal reasons. It was enjoyable. There are local gaming clubs in my area that still run Revised games.

That being said, I never played or ran a D20/Revised/SAGA campaign....was it a good system for? What are people's experiences?

Before purchasing the AoR core last year I considered running a Revised game. But then came upon forums and threads across the internet and found a general consensus that FF Star Wars was a much better system.

I'm enjoying FF Star Wars as are everyone I introduced the system to. But in the back of my mind I wonder what running a D20 game would have been like.

I've played and had a lot of fun with Star Wars d20, especially Saga Edition. But it does a different thing than either the FFG or d6 system do.

Saga Edition was a little better in terms of various bonuses in contrast to most d20 games that were more based of D&D 3.X, but it still had its share of problems, the biggest one being how skill bonuses worked in comparison to defense values; at low levels a PC with Skill Focus was almost certain to defeat an adversary's relevant defense, while at the higher levels if a PC didn't have Skill Focus, they were almost certain to fail, especially if the adversary had taken prestige class levels. PCs did generally tend to have high hit points, but that was also indicative of the movies where the leads where never in any serious danger unless it was from a major-league villain, though combat did tend to eventually shift from dealing hit point damage to "how quickly can I knock my opponent down the condition track?" Speaking of, the condition track was a neat mechanic that a lot of D&D players had wished made it into 4e, as it simplified all the various conditions (blinded, fatigued, poisoned, etc) into a single and very simple to track system that the more you got banged up, the bigger the penalty you had to your rolls. The game did have a heavy focus on minis/grid-based combat (not surprising as WotC was also selling a line of pre-painted figures for their collectible minis game), which is a turn-off for a number of folks. It did suffer from the core problem of being a d20 system in that once your PCs broke double-digits on their levels, the inherent math of the game started to breakdown; not as quickly or as badly as D&D or Pathfinder, but it did. There's also the simply matter of it being a level-based game, where you cap out at 20, so you only get to pick so many talents and feats, which was itself hampered by most campaigns wrapping up before the characters reached 15th level; I was in one campaign that we got to as high as 18th level before finally concluding, and by that point the campaign felt more like an episode of later-end Dragonball Z than Star Wars, though we did end with blowing up Korriban and taking out a lot of the One Sith in the process.

Force powers were a mixed bag, but then Force powers have had problems in every Star Wars RPG, from WEG 1st edition up to and including FFG's method. The spell slot system (which didn't become much of an issue after your Force user took their third or fourth Force Training feat) was a bit of a turn-off at lower levels because you could only do so many major Force effects per encounter, which itself was done as an attempt to keep Jedi characters from completely hogging the spotlight given the sheer variety of things they could do (doesn't seem to have worked all that well, in spite of the writers' efforts to beef up the power of all the PC classes to put them on about the same tier as Jedi). Thing was, WotC was trying to let players emulate to some extent the Jedi heroes on the screen, and to feel like Jedi from as early as 1st level, but it also became quite easy to build a Jedi PC (especially if your GM used random ability score rolls and you rolled really well) that was as devastating in both Force usage and lightsaber combat. I had one Jedi PC during a Legacy (comics) Era campaign that came to be referred to as the Teenage Telekinetic Wrecking Ball just do to the sheer Force Unleashed level of craziness I'd pulled off with his various telekinetic-based powers, including wiping out an entire encounter's worth of bad guys with a single Force Slam at first level (this due to a very lucky damage roll and getting the highest initiative total). Granted, I was also a good enough player to be willing to step aside and let the other PCs shine, but the GM did have to scale up combat encounters (the enemy squad rules in the Clone Wars Campaign Guide was a godsend for that GM) to account for the sheer devastation that my one PC could dish out at a moment's notice.

SE did have some measure of system bloat, but it didn't quite as bad as D&D mostly because the game line wasn't out as long with a much slower release cycle than FFG initially had, and it can be said that FFG's system is perhaps worse in terms of system bloat due to sheer number of new weapons/armor/items/specializations that have been published over the years.

In retrospect, I'd say that Saga Edition is good for one-shots and convention-style adventures; it's fun, the mechanics are easy to pick up due to most gamers these days being generally familiar with the d20 system. Plus, if you use pre-gens, then you've got a better control over what sort of craziness the PCs can accomplish and thus avoid some of the more game-breaking combos (especially if start delving into some of the later sourcebooks in the line).

I will admit to have a bit of system bias as i did have the opportunity to do some freelance writing work for Saga Edition (Galaxy at War and The Unknown Regions), netting an Additional Design credit in both books, and have been in jest credited with turning unarmed fighters from utter trash into gods of war in the process.

I would however recommend to steer clear of Revised Core Rules, as that was built entirely upon the D&D 3.5 system, and has a whole number of problems that could make it clunky and not necessarily very fun. That system only worked as well as it did for the KOTOR games because the computer was handling all the math and miscellaneous modifiers, which could cause combats to grind on due to everyone (players and GMs) trying to keep track of all the little pluses and minuses being tossed around.

I've played and run a fair amount of Saga Edition. I think it's fantastic. It's a more streamlined d20 system (like simpler skill system with fewer skills), even low level characters can achieve a really wide array of character concepts, and it has a cinematic feel. One big highlight is the Skill Challenge system which really throws in a narrative component and can really move a story along and get players to engage the story of the game in narrative terms (it's also a lot of fun to GM and play).

It is crunchy (so is FFG Star Wars). A agree with kaosoe that creating NPCs is a huge drag (at least for me, some GMs love to build out d20-style characters) and the last time I ran Saga I started to take a different approach (similar to FFG or L5R or other xp based systems) where I just gave NPCs stats (attributes, defenses, base attack, et) and threw in appropriate Talents and Feats without worrying about prerequisites (so it ran/prepared just as smoothly as FFG).

Saga covers all the eras available at the time, with specific support for Knights of the Old Republic, Rebellion Era, Clone Wars, etc.

It has a lot of cool easy-to-use GM toolsets in the various books to enhance encounters - like squad rules (in Clone Wars, similar to FFG minion rules), encounter hazards (Unknown regions). It supports most all character types so players will be able to create whatever they can imagine in Star Wars.

One caveat is that Force use *can* get out of hand if players stress that in certain ways (like Autofire can with FFG Star Wars) so watch out for Skill Focus: Use the Force in low level characters. I've never seen be an issue at games I've run or played in but it can and does happen.

The previous d20 incarnations - before Saga - didn't quite capture the Star Wars feel for me but Saga really nailed it (I like it as much, more in some ways and less in others, than FFG Star Wars).

I played OCRB and RCRB, and, of the two definitely preferred RCRB, if for no other reason than they did armor properly. I refused to even touch Saga Edition.

I played a little bit of Saga Edition but it didn't do anything for me. It wasn't bad, but it didn't grab me like FFG's System.

On 10/18/2019 at 12:04 PM, Jedi Ronin said:

The previous d20 incarnations - before Saga - didn't quite capture the Star Wars feel for me but Saga really nailed it (I like it as much, more in some ways and less in others, than FFG Star Wars).

The main problem with OCR/RCR d20 is that they were too much of a cut&paste of the D&D 3e rules, and with that came all the baggage of the 3e rules. Plus, the whole "hurting yourself to use the Force" felt very off to a lot of players, as there was nothing to suggest that a Force user had to weaken themselves in order to use the Force. While Saga Edition's spell slot system wasn't perfect, it did a better job than OCR/RCR of capturing how a Force user (especially a lower-end one) couldn't just spam the same power over and over, not unlike what we'd seen in the films where most of the Jedi and Sith didn't just use the same few Force powers over and over in the same fight.

9 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

While Saga Edition's spell slot system wasn't perfect, it did a better job than OCR/RCR of capturing how a Force user (especially a lower-end one) couldn't just spam the same power over and over, not unlike what we'd seen in the films where most of the Jedi and Sith didn't just use the same few Force powers over and over in the same fight.

This is an interesting point, something I've been thinking about. Not to derail the thread (I can start a new one if it's interesting enough), but watching Force usage from TCW and Rebels, they really have to focus, almost as if it requires the Prepare quality... Masters can do things more quickly...perhaps a Commit removes the Prepare? Considering introducing this house rule, but not sure about it yet.

I found the d20 flavors of SW to be solid, playable, and uninspiring. I ran D6 for years and then ran a Hero System version of Star Wars before FFG started theirs. My players find FFG a bit too crunchy and detailed and can't keep track of all their talents. That may sound weird as they also played Hero System, but with Hero you only pay for what your concept needs instead of working your way through trees. As a result, at approx. 500 XP we have distilled all the characters into the NPC write-up format. Oddly, even though that process included a lot of pruning (less abilities in total) the players now make more effective use of their characters and don't sit around saying "what can I do again?" or fretting about forgetting their abilities. I'd run FATE, but the FFG books are so beautiful and filled with goodness, that I'm sticking with it.

I've run old WEG D6 version and then D20 versions (1 & 2) and after taking a look at FFG version I've gone to Star Wars Saga RPG. Overall I've found SW Saga rpg to run well, capture the feel of Star Wars and deliver both Storm Troopers and the renowned Sith villains, creatures and Mandalorians in the way I recall.

The hardest part is of course getting hold of a Physical copy of the Core Rules for reasonable money (it's become extremely popular after initially being rejected by players who had already bought D20 versions 1&2). But it does run extremely well on Roll20 where you can drop ships, character tokens and anything else you require.

My players are likewise really enjoying it, one is a Pathfinder player and DM who has gotten bored of the limits of 5e but is thoroughly taken by SWSaga rpg and is now running a game.

Oh and as for Revised and the first iterations of Star Wars D20 rpg IMO avoid them, we played for over a year and for our group there was a serious imbalance with the system, jedi became unmanageable very quickly and the rest of the party were left standing. Our opinion for what it's worth. Go Saga.

My son and I managed to purchase a discounted brand new copy of the original Star Wars d20 Core Rulebook. We are planning to begin a campaign set in the Rise of the Sith era with a few other players, mainly consisting of his friends. There is an overall conscious that force users out perform non-force users within the system. For those who have experience with Star Wars d20, what are your thoughts about running a non-force user campaign?

Today, I wouldn't touch it after finding FFG Star Wars. At the time, I was overjoyed with the Saga version of d20 vs the original 3.5 Star Wars. It greatly simplified D&D 3.5 and I recall hitting the Wizard forums begging for the next edition of D&D to follow the Saga model of more simplicity. Instead we got 4th Edition and thus my search for a completely new roleplaying system which led me to FFG Warhammer > FFG Star Wars > Genesys. So I guess a happy ending to my tale.

If you MUST run d20 Star Wars, use the Saga edition not the original d20 Star Wars. I would even suggest taking it an extra step to using 5th edition d20 and taking the time to create Star Wars classes, races, and gear. But, only if you MUST, since the best version of Star Wars is FFG by far.

15 hours ago, Morninghasbroken said:

My son and I managed to purchase a discounted brand new copy of the original Star Wars d20 Core Rulebook. We are planning to begin a campaign set in the Rise of the Sith era with a few other players, mainly consisting of his friends. There is an overall conscious that force users out perform non-force users within the system. For those who have experience with Star Wars d20, what are your thoughts about running a non-force user campaign?

You can run a non-Force user campaign in d20 Star Wars just fine. Granted, that version has many of the hiccups/issues that D&D 3rd edition had, since it's really just a 3e clone. But, if that's not a deal breaker for you, then it runs about as well as 3rd edition did, maybe even better since you're not having to deal with 3e magic and combats generally run a bit quicker since you don't always have to chew through an enemy's hit points to defeat them (a single crit with a heavy blaster pistol or a blaster rifle will probably take out most foes in one shot due to how the Vitality/Wound system works).

The main reason for purchasing the D20 OCB over the other systems, is financial. Unfortunately, we had to sell our Fantasy Flight materials to a friend. Overall, we are happy with the purchase and cannot wait to study the OCB as a family. I agree, SAGA edition seems like the best D20 SW rendition. I played a scoundrel in a SAGA edition campaign years ago and had blast. Thank you for the input! We have some additional questions. Ironically, D&D 3E is the only D&D version non of us have experience in! What were the main issues players had with D&D 3E?

11 hours ago, Morninghasbroken said:

The main reason for purchasing the D20 OCB over the other systems, is financial. Unfortunately, we had to sell our Fantasy Flight materials to a friend. Overall, we are happy with the purchase and cannot wait to study the OCB as a family. I agree, SAGA edition seems like the best D20 SW rendition. I played a scoundrel in a SAGA edition campaign years ago and had blast. Thank you for the input! We have some additional questions. Ironically, D&D 3E is the only D&D version non of us have experience in! What were the main issues players had with D&D 3E?

The main issue with 3e was that the math started breaking down once PCs' levels hit the double digits. Add in all the various floating bonuses from different sources (especially when it comes to figuring out on the fly what does or doesn't stack), and the problems start becoming more apparent. That and more often than not, making a full-attack (the bread and butter of a Fighter/Soldier) is rarely worth it, though at least in Star Wars a Solder with a blaster isn't penalized quite so much as they don't have to move to be able to attack their foe, and ranged weapons in Star Wars far outshine melee weapons in terms of raw damage output.

It was far worse in D&D due to the proliferation of overpowered magic spells and pretty much requiring that characters be decked out in magic items to even stand a chance against higher-end threats. But OCR/RCR Star Wars isn't as immune to the math problems.

OCR sadly has an issue of "dead levels" where the PCs won't gain anything except more hit/vitality points and maybe an increase to a saving throw, but nothing really juicy or exciting, such as a bonus feat or a new/enhanced class ability. The Jedi classes were the worst in this regard, which I guess the writers figured that since they had access to Force skills was enough of an off-set, but sadly it wasn't as increasing your bonus in a skill isn't exactly awe inspiring.

On a side note, there's a fan-hack of 5e that's based around the Star Wars: The Old Republic MMO. Do a web search for Star Wars 5e RPG and you should turn up the links. It's free to download (being a fan project), and the production values are pretty good. If it turns out that the OCR doesn't quite work for you and your players, it's an alternative d20-based Star Wars RPG that won't require a huge cash layout like FFG's or Saga Edition's books would (assuming you could even find them at this point in time).

On 10/26/2019 at 9:59 PM, whafrog said:

This is an interesting point, something I've been thinking about. Not to derail the thread (I can start a new one if it's interesting enough), but watching Force usage from TCW and Rebels, they really have to focus, almost as if it requires the Prepare quality... Masters can do things more quickly...perhaps a Commit removes the Prepare? Considering introducing this house rule, but not sure about it yet.

I think that’s just it. Using the force in any context in the Star Wars universe seems to, if nothing else, leaves the wielder unable to do anything else in the duration of the action. Even Yoda, an absolute master, had to turn his back on Dooku to stop derbies crushing his fellow peers.

usually makes sense; why mess around with Misdirect when a combat action is usually better? Less impactful when move object is an instant kill button for players without restraint and enough fall distance.

played Saga addition. Was alright, but it was the game that *really* made me hate force wizards and crazy old masters as an archetype. Mainly because people kept making vulnerable men for the +3 to all mental stats and just used the force for most things. We’re often crazy/evil and had the “guns” to back it up. It took a very long time getting comfortable with the force in FFG. Of course my experiences are pretty jaded, and got much better with maturity.

On 8/4/2020 at 7:03 PM, Morninghasbroken said:

The main reason for purchasing the D20 OCB over the other systems, is financial.

Would you happen to live in the Midwest US? If the Gamer Gods place you within an hour or two drive of me, I have boxes of Star Wars d20/SAGA stuff my wife would love to get out of our basement. Shipping that stuff would be very pricey. It's a large collection.

2 hours ago, Sturn said:

Would you happen to live in the Midwest US? If the Gamer Gods place you within an hour or two drive of me, I have boxes of Star Wars d20/SAGA stuff my wife would love to get out of our basement. Shipping that stuff would be very pricey. It's a large collection.

Sorry, we are in the south east. I am sure you would be able to sell the books on eBay. Star Wars D20 is hot right now, especially Revised and Saga.

Well I was going to give it to you if you happened to be in my neck of the woods. But, thanks for the suggestion the wifey would probably like me selling it better.