8 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

what do you mean "pretend it isn't worth paying for?"

it's totally worth the point!

issue is, you have to consider it in full context , i.e on resistance ships of which the T-70 is generally VERY overpriced

So sure, I'd love to have Heroic on my jedi too. Thing is, there's a VERY good reason why they don't have access to it

Out of all the faction specific talents, Heroic is THE most integral to faction identity as it gives your inefficient, maneuver-dependent ships an "out" from bad luck, which you can't afford to suffer on such expensive and relatively fragile ships (compared to passive modded jedi and such).

Heroic is made for the Resistance, and only for the resistance. Putting it in the context of other factions is pointless.

The runner-up would be Fanatic, which I'm sure just about everyone would be drooling over (honestly, I'd take it over heroic any day ). But no one else can take it, because it's designed for the First Order.

So really, the question becomes "why should we pay extra for Heroic resistance pilots that aren't breaking the meta?"

Or "why should we nerf heroic resistance pilots by forcing emphasis on less desirable talents?"

And I see no reason to

If it is so integral to the Resistance functioning then it is also worth 2pts instead of 1.

It should not be cheaper because the ships are overpriced. Those should then get a decrease in price and then heroic should be priced either 1 or 2 depending on what the devs think. It should not be cheaper than supposed to be to compensate for an over pricing of other stuff.

If heroic becomes 2 and the ships come down 1 or 2 pts it is not a nerf to the Resistance that you fear, but a buff.

LOL at this point its a circular argument, Some people have a hate on for Heroic. Its either A) because they feel it robbed them a few times when they had a great ohh look the A wing rolled 3 blanks on an evade rolle and I am gonna one shot it and Heroic triggered and they re rolled into 3 evades, or B) they are suffering from Faction EPT envy because theirs is horribly designed and/or over costed while Heroic is done right.

At this point NO ones opinions on either side are gonna change and its a pointless conversation. We will just have to wait and see what the Devs do with it in further updates. Honestly I find it amusing how much hate this card seems to generate considering the Resistance is not exactly dominating the top tables. Honestly just looking at the preliminary day one world results the Resistance is lower middle of the pack in terms of spots on the top tables for making the cut.

8 minutes ago, Endureil said:

Honestly I find it amusing how much hate this card seems to generate considering the Resistance is not exactly dominating the top tables. Honestly just looking at the preliminary day one world results the Resistance is lower middle of the pack in terms of spots on the top tables for making the cut.

The cut ratio I have seen shows Resistance actually being exactly middle of the road.

In fact, since aside from Separatists (overperforming) and empire (under), ever faction has a cut rate from 20-25%. The game looks like it’s in a healthy spot right now.

7 hours ago, Revanur said:

If heroic becomes 2 and the ships come down 1 or 2 pts it is not a nerf to the Resistance that you fear, but a buff.

Then this has to be the argument

It can't just be "oh, Heroic should be more because I'm examining it in a vacuum instead of the context in which it is actually present in game"

1 hour ago, Endureil said:

LOL at this point its a circular argument, Some people have a hate on for Heroic. Its either A) because they feel it robbed them a few times when they had a great ohh look the A wing rolled 3 blanks on an evade rolle and I am gonna one shot it and Heroic triggered and they re rolled into 3 evades, or B) they are suffering from Faction EPT envy because theirs is horribly designed and/or over costed while Heroic is done right.

At this point NO ones opinions on either side are gonna change and its a pointless conversation. We will just have to wait and see what the Devs do with it in further updates. Honestly I find it amusing how much hate this card seems to generate considering the Resistance is not exactly dominating the top tables. Honestly just looking at the preliminary day one world results the Resistance is lower middle of the pack in terms of spots on the top tables for making the cut.

If we're looking at the time since the July adjustment, Heroic is the #3 picked talent on all of Meta-Wing, and 2nd or 3rd most effective depending on dates selected. With Crack Shot #1 (and most effective), and Predator picked only slightly more, and about the same effectiveness. But Heroic is also limited to one of the least-played factions.

While I don't really care a tonne about pick rates*, this is perhaps kind of extreme. Perhaps this points to Heroic being too strong compared to pretty much all other talents, and maybe the power level of Heroic should be brought into line.** But since Resistance is a lesser-played faction, and one which doesn't perform super well, the faction really doesn't need nerfs. Even the folks suggesting Heroic get a nerf are pretty much all suggesting that if such a thing happened, Resistance should get overall buffs. Heck, Resistance probably needs buffs in general.

I think pick rates aren't what we should balance costs around. I think we should balance costs around the abstract power level of stuff. Folks are going to make choices, express preferences. I think Outmaneuver has potential to be more powerful than Heroic on Poe, or Predator on Soontir Fel, or Fearless on Fenn Rau, but Outmaneuver is kind of rare. I don't believe in some capitalist "invisible hand" or "wisdom of crowds" around pick rates, where the prevalence equates closely to actual power. There's too many animal spirits among us gamers, we've got too many preferences and hang-ups to be truly getting it right.

Here's another problem: I think Heroic pretty much is in line with the power level of other talents: you're just paying less for a smaller portion. That, in itself, is desireable. It gives a list more flexibility, allows for bigger bids, extra upgrades, and so forth. Heroic, unlike Outmaneuver, is wicked cheap and wicked easy. It doesn't lock you down into any strategy, it's always active. That--probably more than the precise power level--is probably a large part of why it gets picked so often.

So I guess I'm kinda arguing both sides.

50 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Then this has to be the argument

It can't just be "oh, Heroic should be more because I'm examining it in a vacuum instead of the context in which it is actually present in game"

I mean, that pretty much *IS* the argument most folks are making.

25 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I mean, that pretty much *IS* the argument most folks are making.

Not really

The grand emphasis is on "heroic should cost more because reasons"

The FIRST step should be reduce pilot costs so that heroic can be nerfed without screwing over the faction and its playerbase, as heroic pilots simply aren't overperforming at all (only argument being maybe for Finn)

That, and I maintain that the only change you'll see will be pilots maybe going talentless for deeper bids. No other talent is of any particular worth regardless

Only exception of course being the lovely Awings with their crackshots and double talent slots

16 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Not really

The grand emphasis is on "heroic should cost more because reasons"

The FIRST step should be reduce pilot costs so that heroic can be nerfed without screwing over the faction and its playerbase, as heroic pilots simply aren't overperforming at all (only argument being maybe for Finn)

That, and I maintain that the only change you'll see will be pilots maybe going talentless for deeper bids. No other talent is of any particular worth regardless

Only exception of course being the lovely Awings with their crackshots and double talent slots

It's not, like, every person, but it's RLY common in this thread. Seems more common than folks saying Heroic should be increased in pure isolation.

On 10/17/2019 at 6:25 PM, Squark said:

Possible solution. Increase the cost of heroic by 1, decrease the cost of every Resistance ship with a talent by 1 (independent of other adjustments). Other talents become more competitive, but the faction's overall balance is intact.

On 10/17/2019 at 6:26 PM, theBitterFig said:

Also, I kind of think Resistance is a little over-priced, and increasing the cost on Heroic to 2 probably means every Resistance ship needs to go down a point. I wouldn't hate that--it'd add a lot more choice to how the stuff is built, but it does feel like there's a relationship between the cheapness of Heroic and the cost of Resistance stuff.

23 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

You probably wouldn't. You'd probably still take Heroic. Becuase Heroic is worth 2 points.

Don't confuse the issue: A lot of resistance pilots are too expensive, notably the lower-I X-Wings, the YT-1300, and the Bomber (plus some transport/pods). The reason Resistance has trouble competing as aces is that it's I5-6 pilots are priced exactly where they should be, while several Imp/Repbublic I5-6s are way too cheap. That DOES NOT MEAN that they need an under-priced auto-include stapled-on faction talent to compensate. That does not make the game more fun; it reduces player choice.

21 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Frankly actually, looking at those numbers, its hard for me to really say if it should be 1-2points. I think its likely still better at 2pts, but most chassis should come down 1 point to consider more talent options. Heroic on everything is pretty boring too.

8 hours ago, Revanur said:

If it is so integral to the Resistance functioning then it is also worth 2pts instead of 1.

It should not be cheaper because the ships are overpriced. Those should then get a decrease in price and then heroic should be priced either 1 or 2 depending on what the devs think. It should not be cheaper than supposed to be to compensate for an over pricing of other stuff.

If heroic becomes 2 and the ships come down 1 or 2 pts it is not a nerf to the Resistance that you fear, but a buff.

//

I guess there are a decent number of folks arguing for mass adjustments in Talent pricing, too, which kind of works out to the same thing.

19 hours ago, Naerytar said:

That right there is the problem. You can make Heroic 20 points, it doesn't make Daredevil any more viable. Daredevil is just bad! No way I'd pay 3 points for that effect.

You don't have more options, just because good upgrades suddenly suck. You just have more upgrades that suck.

If you really want to make list building more interesting, move some upgrades from the last category to the first. Or at least to the second.

On 10/17/2019 at 1:14 PM, Kleeg005 said:

edit: Yeah, next to Fearless and Ruthless, Heroic feels somewhat undercosted. But maybe that's because Fearless and Ruthless are overcosted?

22 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

issue is, you have to consider it in full context , i.e on resistance ships of which the T-70 is generally VERY overpriced

I fly scum. The T-70 is a steal compared to many scum ships. I guess the closest comparisons would be the Kimogila or Starviper, neither compares favorably against the T-70.

52 minutes ago, Cerebrawl said:

I fly scum. The T-70 is a steal compared to many scum ships. I guess the closest comparisons would be the Kimogila or Starviper, neither compares favorably against the T-70.

And yet, it's an irrelevant comparison

Just because scuM isn't doing well right now, it doesn't mean the t-70 is any better in comparison to more efficient options

Plus, the Viper is FAR more manueverable, thanks to built in banky broll

22 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

And yet, it's an irrelevant comparison

Just because scuM isn't doing well right now, it doesn't mean the t-70 is any better in comparison to more efficient options

Plus, the Viper is FAR more manueverable, thanks to built in banky broll

In that case how about Fearless and Heroic should be the same amount of points, no? 1 or 3 (honestly I think they should both be 2). Blankout insurance is GOOD, heroic is better than all the other 1 cost options, it's an auto include, at 2 points you'd at least have to weigh pros and cons, and many would still run it.

Viper is more maneuverable as base, but lacks any real aces, neither double reposition nor i6, while the T-70 has a i6 double reposition ace, and just better pilots period(Both Dalan and Xizor are garbage, Guri is ok but not great), and the T-70 has vastly better upgrade options. You can run either as a 4 of, and the T-70 does it better(very solid jousting block). I think it's a relevant comparison.

48 minutes ago, Cerebrawl said:

In that case how about Fearless and Heroic should be the same amount of points, no? 1 or 3 (honestly I think they should both be 2). Blankout insurance is GOOD, heroic is better than all the other 1 cost options, it's an auto include, at 2 points you'd at least have to weigh pros and cons, and many would still run it.

Viper is more maneuverable as base, but lacks any real aces, neither double reposition nor i6, while the T-70 has a i6 double reposition ace, and just better pilots period(Both Dalan and Xizor are garbage, Guri is ok but not great), and the T-70 has vastly better upgrade options. You can run either as a 4 of, and the T-70 does it better(very solid jousting block). I think it's a relevant comparison.

i think worlds more than proved the value of the Viper

T-70? Not as much

Anyway, as said, unless you buff all the resistance ships then nerfing Heroic is just an unnecessary nerf. Not to mention, there's still no real choice between talents even if you do nerf heroic. It's good; other talents (save crackshot) not as good.

But yeah, fearless should DEFINITELY be cheaper. I love the effect, but it's super pricey for the risk involved. Probably needs to scale by base (1-2-3) size due to the fearless Shadowcaster (and larger ships in general) being VERY difficult to avoid and also being generally beefy enough to exchange fire.

27 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

But yeah, fearless should DEFINITELY be cheaper. I love the effect, but it's super pricey for the risk involved. Probably needs to scale by base (1-2-3) size due to the fearless Shadowcaster (and larger ships in general) being VERY difficult to avoid and also being generally beefy enough to exchange fire.

It's good for Lancer and Fangs, and pretty much nothing else(ok, maybe YV-666 and J5K, but they're such terrible ships, other than as bugzapper platforms, which Fearless doesn't help with).

1 hour ago, ficklegreendice said:

i think worlds more than proved the value of the Viper

T-70? Not as much

Anyway, as said, unless you buff all the resistance ships then nerfing Heroic is just an unnecessary nerf. Not to mention, there's still no real choice between talents even if you do nerf heroic. It's good; other talents (save crackshot) not as good.

But yeah, fearless should DEFINITELY be cheaper. I love the effect, but it's super pricey for the risk involved. Probably needs to scale by base (1-2-3) size due to the fearless Shadowcaster (and larger ships in general) being VERY difficult to avoid and also being generally beefy enough to exchange fire.

I love scum but feel fearless would be underpriced at 1 point on small bases.

Maybe 2/3/4 coupled with some price decreases to the weaker ships and pilots.

1 hour ago, Scum4Life said:

I love scum but feel fearless would be underpriced at 1 point on small bases.

Maybe 2/3/4 coupled with some price decreases to the weaker ships and pilots.

Probably right

Also maybe just 2/2/3

The Kim would love it

2 points would be where I'd run it on Fangs(currently running crack shot or predator on them), I'd already run it on Lancer for 3.

Not sure I'd run it on kimogila for 2, range 1 jousting isn't where the kimo wants to be, it dies quickly to concentrated fire with that 1 agility. I'd still pick crack shot over it. Maybe for the G1-A, though it suffers from concentrated fire too, it just tends to end up fighting like that due to how the dial works, and 4-LOM wants to be in range 1.

I think the G1-A is the only medium ship that will be running it even at 2 points, and it won't be an autopick.

So 2/2/3 just makes it more of a given on Fangs, and expands user base by 1 ship, in the G1-A. The rest of the small or medium bases probably opt out still, unless they're being run as jousting blocks, then it's worth considering, but what are you going to joust? Cartel marauders don't have talent slots, black sun aces at 43 points? Not seeing something viable there.

At this point I guess I could go either way. I've always been in favor of 0pt Ruthless because it's mostly hot garbage and even using it (let alone equipping it) is usually a mistake several levels worse than Jamming Beam.

Maybe all faction talents should be just slightly underpriced to reemphasize faction identity? But that gives me major concerns over the likes of Selfless...

I would go for 2 points. It does have limits:

1. Faction specific

2. Need to roll two blanks

However, there is no limit to the amount of times heroic can trigger per turn.

Let's look at comparisons:

1. Lone wolf. 5 ponts: Not faction specific, but has a range limiter and a single recurring charge. 1 dice per round.

2. Lando crew Scum: no requirement on blanks, but you need to spend a focus.

3. Lando pilot, scum: 2 attack ship with built in "take stress to reroll". Hard to compare a pilot to Talent, but you have to take a.negative to get a positive.

Heroic only has upside. It is basicly stapled onto cards in the faction. I dont see a si glen point increase being a problem.

1 hour ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Maybe all faction talents should be just slightly underpriced to reemphasize faction identity? But that gives me major concerns over the likes of Selfless...

Not really

Factions like FO and Resistance need their awesome talents to balance their really bizarre array of situationally useful pilot abilities (minus the odd standouts like Tavson, Quickdraw/backdraft, and Finn pod).

The prequels couldn't care less about their talents

Scum could just use the help, but fearless wouldn't be everywhere because not all ships want to range 1 joust (and some that do can't use it...Dengar)

Ruthless could be zero more because it sucks than because of theme

And selfless you gotta be careful of. It's VERY strong in practice, so if it comes down too much and it starts getting spammed...well, that's how you get bricks

Anyway, only the sequel factions really seem designed around their talents (due to their weird pilot abilities and ships). It gives them efficiency to balance out their inefficient but mobile ships (some exceptions apply; most of which don't get talents though)

Other factions have other defining traits, like CiS weirdness or Republic Jedi contrasted by slow clones etc., that don't require talents to shine

The Resistance's theme, Ito gameplay, is "manueverability". We got the super fast and flexible Rz-2, pilots such as Nien and Ello and Snap waving off the conventions of red manuevers and/or actions; even the transport can continuously back peddle like no other faction can! Plus you can easily perma-stop a bomber using either Leia or Holdo crew

What heroic does is make this manueverability an advantage that you can leverage, by making these relatively expensive ships not get wrecked by dice so badly

After all, they ain't Jedi 😑 (I.e, resistance trades passive mods for manueverability; the Jedi technically have both)

Faction ID EPTs should all be 0 points.