10 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

You're being inconsistent.

Cheap Aces: Tallie and L'ulo are much cheaper than the ones you listed.

OK no juke synergy that's fine but A-Wings are great with Snap Shot so...

Regen can also be taken on T-70s btw. And it has the exact same defense profile as the 7b except the 7B pays 8 points to gain a force and lose a hull. This is exaggerated at higher initiatives.

Not so simple: Are you saying they can only get new ships that don't have the talent slot?

Your arguments are really untenable. Vennie is great with Heroic, especially with Finn Gunner.

"Less cool" is highly subjective. "Less balanced" is not. Heroic is autoinclude and there's really no argument against that. The only other talents that are taken are on A-Wings that already have heroic equipped.

Heroic should be a good choice. It's not a choice. It's stapled on.

Either Tallie nor L'ulo approach the insanity of other i5 aces that they are cheaper than.

Tallie's ability is REALLY situational

L'ulo used to be stupidly cheap. But that was a.) NOT heroic's fault and b.) addressed

So, that's irrelevant.

A-wings have two talent slots, probably for that reason. Use heroic snapshot, easy

And no, you're taking my argument to an extreme that makes no sense.

Resistance will get two kinds of new ships:

1.) Efficient ships/pilots without talents (such as Bastian or Pava)

2.) Elite, uniquely maneuverable ships/pilots with talents

7 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

And AGAIN, Luke pays for that ability. Not all X-Wings taken are Luke. ALL Resistance talents taken are Heroic. This is the offender.

Except it is. It's taken on every talent slot. There are no other choices being made. No empty slots and no other talents. Seeing at least some of one or the other would mean it's in a healthy place. It's not in a healthy place. It probably would be at 2 points. It definitely wouldn't at 3.

Again, Luke is far more efficient than the likes of NN

I don't know how much one would pay for infinite force, but I guarantee it'd be more than 8 (perceptive copilot costs)

As for talent slot, cart before the horse. Heroic is taken on every talent slot because a.) it's designed to be and b.) all other talents kinda suck

I don't know why this bothers people so much. Try viewing Heroic as something like Stygium Array , it's an essential part of the ships' identity and balance (especially since it's called "Heroic", which is the resistance theme)

I believe people VASTLY overestimate the "variety" they'd be getting by gutting Heroic for no reason. First of all, other talents just aren't particularly good or note worthy enough to bother with. Will your games really be that much more enjoyable just because you see the occasional predator maybe? Will they be more enjoyable when the far more likely occurrence of NO talent upgrades occur?

It's a pretty pointless and unnecessary exercise. Heroic should ONLY be nerfed if it were running roughshod over the entire game. It certainly isn't, it's just letting resistance pilots see play; don't mess with it.

The ONLY potential argument against Heroic is Finn pod, which is to be resolved by removing Finn's talent at most

6 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Except it is. It's taken on every talent slot. There are no other choices being made. No empty slots and no other talents. Seeing at least some of one or the other would mean it's in a healthy place. It's not in a healthy place. It probably would be at 2 points. It definitely wouldn't at 3.

If Crack Shot were a point cheaper than Heroic, would you sometimes take it on an I1 A-Wing instead of Heroic? Maybe you would to get it to fit in the list better. If Predator were the same cost as Heroic, would you sometimes take it on Poe, who wants bullseye anyway for his S-Foils' barrel roll?

This is a bit hyperbolic. Been seeing plenty of Snap Wexley with Composure. Also seeing some preference for Crackshot on Poe from some players. I’ve even been advised by a player I respect to choose Crackshot over Heroic on my A-Wings.
Heroic may be the favorite, but saying no other choices are being made is a bit too far.

Even at 2 points, I would take Heroic over any other Talent *if I have the points.* Because I am a filthy, LAZY casual player, and I have grown weary of chasing the conditions required to activate other Talents - and any of those Talents without condition-chains are too expensive to put on to a coherent Resistance list. Heroic at .5% of my list at present, probably even at a full 1% of my list, is an acceptable cost to pay to chase variance.

But I would never touch Heroic at 3 points. Because I can go multiple games in a row without triggering Heroic. Or I can have it trigger three times on the same ship in the same turn. And that kind of variance just isn't worth chasing at more than 1% of my list - and maaaaaybe not even at 1%. I'd rather just have the nonsense bid.

3 minutes ago, Kleeg005 said:

Even at 2 points, I would take Heroic over any other Talent *if I have the points.* Because I am a filthy, LAZY casual player, and I have grown weary of chasing the conditions required to activate other Talents - and any of those Talents without condition-chains are too expensive to put on to a coherent Resistance list. Heroic at .5% of my list at present, probably even at a full 1% of my list, is an acceptable cost to pay to chase variance.

As a general question: why would you accept paying additional points for the same ships you've been using when they are not in need of nerfing at all?

That's basically where this'll all come back to. We'd just be making resistance pilots weaker. Why? Are they that horrible to play against? Are they super duper powerful?

Doesn't seem that way to me

The ONLY way a heroic nerf is acceptable is if the ships all get bumped down in price to compensate. That way, we can continue only taking heroic without unnecessary nerfs to a balanced faction.

But yeah, Kleeg's got it re: other talents.

1 minute ago, ficklegreendice said:

Heroic should ONLY be nerfed if it were running roughshod over the entire game. It certainly isn't; don't mess with it.

Wow. This is also extremely hyperbolic. Let's not nerf Sun Fac and Ensnare then because he's clearly not dominating worlds. Handbrake Han should never have been Nerfed, nor Tripsilon. None of those ever "ran roughshod over the entire game." That's a very silly way to approach game balance.

3 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Will your games really be that much more enjoyable just because you see the occasional predator maybe? Will they be more enjoyable when the far more likely occurrence of NO talent upgrades occur?

YES! Because then when I'm building a list, I have options. I can decide which is more worth taking. Don't you remember how in 1.0, every ship had an optimal build? There was no choice involved except which ships you were taking with the pilot and their loadout already decided for you? Heroic is getting awfully close to that.

4 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

I don't know why this bothers people so much. Try viewing Heroic as something like Stygium Array, it's an essential part of the ships' identity and balance (especially since it's called "Heroic", which is the resistance theme)

Except it's not. It's a faction talent . It's not a faction ability. Imagine if Selfless were 1 point. Imagine if Fanatical were 1 point. Faction talents were never meant to be universally-present baked-in abilities that all ships in the faction could take for granted. They're intended as special options that are available exclusively to that faction.

You have no case.

6 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

As for talent slot, cart before the horse. Heroic is taken on every talent slot because a.) it's designed to be and b.) all other talents kinda suck

A) Patently false

B) Then FIX THEM

Once again, making one thing underpriced to make up for something else that's overpriced is the worst way to balance a game.

2 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

The ONLY way a heroic nerf is acceptable is if the ships all get bumped down in price to compensate . That way, we can continue only taking heroic without unnecessary nerfs to a balanced faction.

I think we're in agreement that most of the resistance ships deserve to be bumped down regardless. It's not "to compensate." It's for game balance.

Similarly, Heroic is too cheap because it's outperforming all other talents in the game for its cost. It's not to compensate for anything. It's for game balance.

3 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

As a general question: why would you accept paying additional points for the same ships you've been using when they are not in need of nerfing at all?

You'd probably end up paying less points overall in most cases. 2 points down on the ship and 1 up on the talent nets you one point less. But making Heroic more of a choice means that now you have more options of what you could fit in your list naked and you have more options of how you can load your ships out with the extra points.

No one's saying Resistance is OP and needs a nerf. We're saying Heroic is OP and needs a nerf (and that Resistance needs OTHER kinds of buffs).

Case in point: How many resistance ships that are not capable of taking heroic have been played at Worlds so far? Very few. They need a buff. But buff them and leave Heroic where it is and you create a monster.

what on earth is going on in this thread

1 minute ago, svelok said:

what on earth is going on in this thread

Friday.

Edit: Possibly Saturday, come to think of it. I don’t know where everyone is from, so we could have some people a head of my local time.

1 minute ago, svelok said:

what on earth is going on in this thread

Truth. Dunno why I participated, except that it somehow struck a nerve. Like, why we gotta complain about every little thing?

Actually, I know why I'm constantly on the boards here. I don't get to play enough, and this is as close to a game as I can get most of the time. Lame.

2 minutes ago, Kleeg005 said:

Truth. Dunno why I participated, except that it somehow struck a nerve. Like, why we gotta complain about every little thing?

Actually, I know why I'm constantly on the boards here. I don't get to play enough, and this is as close to a game as I can get most of the time. Lame.

Basically my thought atm

This faction was specifically built around its talent. It's working fine; not overpowered. Let it lie

But I think you hit the nail on the head as to why we keep coming back 😛

Just now, ficklegreendice said:

Basically my thought atm

But I think you hit the nail on the head as to why we keep coming back 😛

True. Sorry, I think I got overworked.

Let's take a break and enjoy watching worlds from afar

30 minutes ago, svelok said:

what on earth is going on in this thread

I regret nothing.

1 hour ago, ficklegreendice said:

It's not outlandish where it currently is either?

Why fix what isn't broke? It's not gonna get the far more situational and expensive talents onto the resistance table regardless

Perhaps I’m not making my devil’s advocacy clear enough. I’m really all for either and both. 1pt is fine. But my point is, 2pts wouldn’t kill the upgrade at all, if that’s what FFG decides to do.

Heroic Should definately stay at 1, unless it starts dominating events for some reason. Doesn't actively do anything, good as a generic throw-on for a faction that could use it.

It is true that the sequel factions got the 2 best faction ept's.

next best one might be ruthlessness, except that you have to design a list around it. which i plan on doing.

32 minutes ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

Perhaps I’m not making my devil’s advocacy clear enough. I’m really all for either and both. 1pt is fine. But my point is, 2pts wouldn’t kill the upgrade at all, if that’s what FFG decides to do.

Sure, might not kill the upgrade

But why make the poor pilots suffer needlessly? Unless the entire package is too strong, it's pointless to address

Especially in the face of actual imbalances

As Hobbyist said above, the sequels got the "best" talents. And as I've said before, I believe that's intentional to allow ffg room to design unique but oftentimes incredibly situational pilot abilities.

Must say that FO is far less creative, though (since they're mainly just dice mods) 😛

2 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I often disagree with you

Do ya? Haha.

---

I agree. While it might seem situational, it actually has a very high percentage of going off. If we assume you have focuses when you're defending ( you should, this is the focus rule ), then heroic retools are quite helpful. If not... well. That's your own darn fault usually. That's the issue I see with a lot of T-70 driving: A lotta ppl think whistling the resistance march means they can fly like womp rats without focus. No, the magic is when you do got the mods and fly EFFICIENTLY (not fancily), that's when the resistance ships start really shining.

The odds of two green dice blanking is just (.375)^2 its approx 14%. The odds of rolling 2 blanks into 2 blanks is (.375)^4 about 2%. So you mitigate your blank 2 dices by 12%.

3 green dice: With an extra green die for range or obstruction (I'm going to avoid 4 green cuz maths), changes of rolling all blanks is (.375)^3 about 5%. However, the change of rerolling THAT into blanks is 0.2% (lesss than 1%).
So oddly, on Res Awings, this looks not so useful for defense, but ok for offense (not great)

A game usually lasts around 9 rounds. I estimate a T-70 gets shot at about 6 times before it dies (with region, maybe 7-8). Of those, I'd guess that 2/6 are 3 green dice situations.

Therefore, for each T-70, I expect Heroic to trigger: 4 x 14% + 2x5% = 66% per T-70. So a 2/3rds chance per game it triggers. It will save you from blanks into blanks in roughly 4x12% + 2x4.8% of those times about 57% of the time.

Frankly actually, looking at those numbers, its hard for me to really say if it should be 1-2points. I think its likely still better at 2pts, but most chassis should come down 1 point to consider more talent options. Heroic on everything is pretty boring too.

All of those numbers get much worse if you don't have focus while being shot at of course. So remember the focus rule.

I just plain don't see what the big deal is. If I could put it on my ships (I fly Rebel Alliance), sure I'd strongly consider doing so. But I don't see it triggering often enough to be worth all the nerd rage and demands for it's cost going up. It seems about as good as the other 1 cost Talents. Actually, feels to me like it'd potentially trigger even less often. It also doesn't feel like it's as good as any of the 2 cost Talents. Yes, I'm including the First Order faction Talent in that statement. And this is entirely due to how unpredictable it's trigger condition is. You can reliably line up a bullseye shot. You can rely upon a ship with 3 shields getting at least one shot off while lacking shields. You can even ensure you're squadron stays in a tight formation. But you can't reliably trigger Heroic since it entirely depends on your ability to roll nothing but blanks while rolling 2 or more dice.

And even if it does trigger, it's quite possible that your reroll wont pan out either.

6 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Heroic on everything is pretty boring too.

Disagree completely, though obviously enjoyment is subjective

Heroic on everything is a VERY positive experience. It keeps the game enjoyable by dodging stupid, game-deciding dice spikes. This keeps the game focused on manuevering, Ie actual gameplay, especially since heroic is far less effective if you don't get a focus action

By contrast, I don't see any talent that's worth clamoring for? Predator on highest I only? Outmanuever that you'll never pay six points for?crack/snapshot that you only will (and can still) put on Awings?

Don't see how you get any improvement by emphasizing these not terribly impressive or interesting options

If Heroic was 3 points

Upgrades I'd still take regularly:

• Crack Shot (1)

Upgrades I might take sometimes, depending on the list:

• Predator (2)
• Lone Wolf (5)

Upgrades I'd still never take*:

• Composure (1)
• Marksmanship (1)
• Expert Handling (*)
• Daredevil (3)
• Elusive (3)
• Intimidation (3)
• Swarm Tactics (*)
• Debris Gambit (4)
• Trick Shot (4)
• Outmaneuver (6)
• Saturation Salvo (6)
• Juke (7)
• Snap Shot (*)
• Squad Leader (*)

That right there is the problem. You can make Heroic 20 points, it doesn't make Daredevil any more viable. Daredevil is just bad! No way I'd pay 3 points for that effect.
You don't have more options, just because good upgrades suddenly suck. You just have more upgrades that suck.

If you really want to make list building more interesting, move some upgrades from the last category to the first. Or at least to the second.

* Unless they have great synergy with a pilot ability, like Snap and Composure

I don't know, Trick Shot is pretty good on a YT-1300 or other ship with a turret. And I kind of like Outmaneuver. Squad leader, yeah I agree it's not particularly good. But my limited testing has had good results with Swarm Tactics in a Tie LN Fighter formation. Put it on Iden and keep her wingmen fairly close, and even an Academy Pilot suddenly has a decent Init during the Engagement phase. Sure, maneuvering such a group around obstacles is more of a hassle. But it seems pretty decent. And also lets Iden protect her squadron rather then just herself with the pilot ability.

It's interesting how many people in this thread pretend like bad luck insurance isn't worth paying for. I'd love to have cheap bad luck insurance in my lists.

26 minutes ago, Cerebrawl said:

It's interesting how many people in this thread pretend like bad luck insurance isn't worth paying for. I'd love to have cheap bad luck insurance in my lists.

what do you mean "pretend it isn't worth paying for?"

it's totally worth the point!

issue is, you have to consider it in full context , i.e on resistance ships of which the T-70 is generally VERY overpriced

So sure, I'd love to have Heroic on my jedi too. Thing is, there's a VERY good reason why they don't have access to it

Out of all the faction specific talents, Heroic is THE most integral to faction identity as it gives your inefficient, maneuver-dependent ships an "out" from bad luck, which you can't afford to suffer on such expensive and relatively fragile ships (compared to passive modded jedi and such).

Heroic is made for the Resistance, and only for the resistance. Putting it in the context of other factions is pointless.

The runner-up would be Fanatic, which I'm sure just about everyone would be drooling over (honestly, I'd take it over heroic any day ). But no one else can take it, because it's designed for the First Order.

So really, the question becomes "why should we pay extra for Heroic resistance pilots that aren't breaking the meta?"

Or "why should we nerf heroic resistance pilots by forcing emphasis on less desirable talents?"

And I see no reason to

Heroic feels like sort of a band-aid for a lot of the resistance stuff being situational and weirdly priced. Apart from some overpriced outliers (And maybe Talli being undercosted), the faction is pretty close to where it should be. Increasing heroic's cost and decreasing everything else's cost to compensate feels like it could have a lot of unintentional knock-on effects. If the other faction talents are underperforming, by all means decrease their cost. But letting a desire for perceived perfection break so many potential things along the way seems shortsighted.

No one is arguing that Heroic is bad

Heroic is not bad. It's just not particularly points-efficient. Increasing its cost could make it bad, and there are already enough bad talent upgrades out there

6 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

issue is, you have to consider it in full context , i.e on resistance ships of which the T-70 is generally VERY overpriced

You already know what I'm going to say to this so I just won't bother. I just don't understand.

For the record I'm totally in favor of 1-pt Daredevil, 2 point elusive/intimidation, and 3 point Trick Shot and Saturation.

Maybe Heroic is worth 1 point. But if it is then basically everything in the game that's 1 point should be free.