Here's an interesting thought experiment:

let's take the biggest aces of any of the OT factions, with their boring, bod-standard passive modifiers (made slightly more interesting in 2nd ed by the use of triggers) and contrast them with their overshadowed counterparts

Soontir (built in manuever ship ability PLUS built-in passive modifier) vs Thurr

Vader (jesus christ what an ability PLUS force) vs Steele, or any of the other Advance

Fenn/Guri v Ol Terry/Xizor or Dalan

Now, give the overshadowed pilots access to Heroic

SUDDENLY, you might have a reason to consider them!

Granted, the gulf in I and the incredible pilot abilities of their superiors are probably still WAY too good to ever pass up, but it helps bridge the gap without overwhelming anything

THAT'S the beauty of heroic. It let's these interesting; FAR more situational abilities shine without getting utterly overwhelmed by the boring more but unquestionably superior (generally speaking) abilities of higher initiative pilots

Honestly, I'm not seeing what the big deal is with Heroic. It only goes off if you

A. are rolling two or more dice

B. roll all blanks

How often will you actually be matching both of those criteria? To me, it sounds like an upgrade you throw on if you have a couple spare points in your list and need to hit 200 exactly for whatever reason.

18 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

1.) No.

It's because the Resistance can't field things like Biggs or Wedge or Norra; pilots with incredibly powerful dice modifying abilities

The only similar guys we got is Poe (super expensive, self stress), Vennie, Rey falcon, and maybe Bastian/Pava, all of which cannot take heroic

Only Finn stands out as a potential combo

2.) LOL no

There isn't a rational mind in the universe (of x-wing miniatures) that should consider a shield upgrade to be worth a laughable 3 point premium (or more, depending on which initiatives you're comparing).

The partisan/blue squaddie + 4 points --> I1 T-70

That's already a shield upgrade prices (albeit on 1 agility), and that is horrible.

The shield/hull upgrades are intentionally priced to be ridiculously inefficient specifically so they do NOT become auto-include

And no, the Rz-a2s aren't particularly well priced either. They pay quite well for their added capabilities and need heroic atop it to stop your investment from poofing in on bad roll.

Why is the Rz-a1 so inferior, then? Because the rz-a1 is awfully overcosted . It is a TERRIBLE metric to measure anything against.

1)

The other post I quoted said it was the lack of cheap generic bodies so my response was to that. Apparently you agree with it as you lay the blame somewhere else.

On the subject of dice modifiers: ok they apparently only have a few pilot abilities that modify their dice, to soften that they do have access to things like advanced optics from Tech which besides them only FO have. Not saying it is a reason they should or shouldn't have heroic. They should have it, but just saying it doesn't mean Heroics price should be lowered due to it as there are other options as wel.

2) and yet the shield upgrade sees play and even in tournament streams I see it often enough. Not saying that the price is good for it, but T70 gets more than just the point of shield for those 4 points.

On the A-wings ok, but then both it and the RZ-1 should come down in cost and not possible upgrades for them which will also be used on other ships. That's what I am saying. Price the upgrade on what it does and also the ships.

12 minutes ago, Squark said:

a) Using shield upgrade to compare ships is never a good idea. The universal accessibility of the card means it's overcosted on >95% of the ships in the game, because of the other <5% (Soontir, Pure Sabaac, etc.) who get a disporportionate value out of the card.

b) The boost barrel roll switch is a negative in my experience, but YMMV I suppose

c) For filler like a generic x-wing, those 4 points are a deal breaker, honestly. Only the shield upgrade helps a generic x-wing do its job, and that really isn't worth so many points

A) True that a shield upgrade is over costed, but it is valid and that extra shield has its worth besides the other upgrades on the T70

B) Indeed preference

C) But that shield certainly is worth a lot on a X-wing. Plenty of times that it saved a pilot like Nien or Poe from giving up half points and then it's worth in that game is way more than 4 points

Edit:

I can't emphasize enough that I like the Resistance having heroic and am ok if it remains 1 point, but think it should be costed to what it does and not because of the price of a factions ships

Unfortunately, Heroic HAS to be priced according to those ships as what it does only occurs WITH those ships

it's a faction-specific upgrade, there's no rhyme not reason to consider it in a universal context (meaning just the talent, as opposed to talent + ship)

Given that the fireball looks extra terrible on paper, heroic will probably be more necessary than ever

And weighing all other talents against all the possible zany abilities that resistance pilots could bring...well, **** the other talents

4 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Unfortunately, Heroic HAS to be priced according to those ships as what it does only occurs WITH those ships

its a faction-specific upgrade, there's no rhyme not reason to consider it in a universal context (meaning just the talent, as opposed to talent + ship)

That's a very good point.

Yes, but those ships are different. its effect is (slightly) different on a T70, Rz2, pod etc.

What I wonder then is how many extra ships do you think the Resistance needs added to the roster before it's no longer a good option to price it with them all in mind?

Although it might be always as Jukes nerf is ofcourse thanks to only 1 ship.

And also taking their ships into account I dont think the ships need Heroic at to be 1pt to be good, I would dare say they are viable without Heroic

Speaking of Hull Upgrade: Heroic provides about 50% the defensive longevity to a T-70 that a Hull Upgrade would, at 20% the cost. Longevity of a Heroic T-70 is about half-way between the longevity of a Starwing and a U-Wing.

10 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Heroic is one of the best designed upgrades in the game, made with a specific purpose in mind and accomplishing that amazingly without dominating the game. Why in the blue **** are we complaining about it?

What happened to the Nantex!?

Seriously. Nantex is probably a real problem in terms of NPE and limited counterplay. Heroic? More of a thought experiment. Nantex threads dropped off the first page, and we've all already said what we had to say.

//

I guess overall I'd say that, in general, a Resistance ship with Heroic is certainly not too cheap. Can everyone agree on this? Can we agree that the final ship is somewhere between fair and overpriced?

I think, under the hood, most folks arguing for a more expensive Heroic are kinda arguing for cheaper Resistance ships.

1 minute ago, Revanur said:

Yes, but those ships are different. its effect is (slightly) different on a T70, Rz2, pod etc.

What I wonder then is how many extra ships do you think the Resistance needs added to the roster before it's no longer a good option to price it with them in mind?

And also taking their ships into account I dont think the ships need Heroic at to be 1pt to be good, I would dare say they are viable without Heroic

It'll never not be a good option to balance ships around heroics

Like I said, I'm positive the entire faction was built around it since it allows the design team to explore whacky-racer tier abilities without creating an absolute joke of a faction

And sure, if you're skilled enough to leverage the manueverability elements of the resistance and consistently outplay your opponent, then sure you don't NEED heroic

But there are plenty of lists out there that aren't kind to those expensive, skill dependent ships- particularly CiS and Sinker swarms. You'll REALLY want heroic to stop some bull dice from deciding the match during the opening salvo.

It's a great ability to balance out the factions' pilots (that can access it), it leads to MORE variety by allowing these interesting pilot abilities whereas not having heroic would just lead to empty talent slots

It's not dominating anything, so it's not overpowered...

It's just great. Let's leave it be

17 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Nah, bring the chassis all in line correctly. Everything should just be priced correctly, and then avoid making anything combo wing too powerful.
Heroic up to 2.
Those named talented T-70s could go down a point.
The Falcon could use a minor reduction and the bomber a major reduction of 4.

More variation in choice of talent is good.

---

No opinion on selfless.

Ruthless is sad. It looks like fun. But I've never actually been able to use it in a fleet. I feel like it should be 0 points, but it really shouldn't be 0points either.

Treacherous looks like 1pt.

I often disagree with you, but I'm largely of the same mindset here, honestly. Specifically because, as someone said upthread "If it were underpriced it would be dominating." I hate to break the news to you but 95% of Resistance talents have been Heroic since it was released.

But you'll say "It's so situational; there are games where it never procs once." OK, yeah, and you were winning those games on RNG already. Blankouts kill ships in most factions. They just don't in Resistance, and Resistance doesn't have to pay a significant amount for that advantage. Do you know how much I'd pay for that talent on Wedge? EASILY 3 points. But other factions don't even have that option. The whole point of faction talents is that they have an option available that the others don't, not that they have a built-in ability that the others don't. I think this is what a lot of people on this thread are missing.

Selfless I don't have enough experience using to say how much it's worth, but at it's current price I'll leave it most of the time. Its mechanics aren't really interesting to me anyway.

Ruthless definitely should be 0 points (or at least they should try it and put it back to 1 if it proves OP which I seriously doubt). I do think that Imps pay too much for the talent slot, which is a separate issue, but even with that aside, wouldn't it just make sense for the "default" standing orders of imperial pilots be "destroy that ship at all costs?" It's almost always hurting you and not always helping you, the only exception being when you can overkill your own ship, which is pretty rare. Ruthless will never be worth 1 point in any build.

One final thought on Heroic: You say "It's so situational it's hardly useful" but the situations it is useful for aren't dependent on skill, positioning, or choices of any kind. It strictly bends the odds of your dice. Predator is a situational upgrade. It's fine at 2 points because bullseye is hard. Dedicated is a situational upgrade. It's fine at 1 point because straining your ship is punishing. Fearless is a situational upgrade. It's fine at 3 because sitting in arc at R1 is almost always a horrible idea. Heroic is not a situational upgrade. There's no way it makes you fly or choose actions differently than if you didn't have it.

It just makes your dice better. That's worth 2 points. If it were worth 1 point, you'd just sometimes see resistance ships with outmaneuver, crack shot, predator, etc. But you pretty much don't.

Of course you'd pay more for heroic on Wedge

Wedge is ******* insane and cheap relative to his capabilities

T-70s and even Rz-a2s? Not so much

Faction specific upgrade; context is ESSENTIAL

plus, I guarantee that there is less heroic on resistance pilots than there are empty or absent talent slots in the rest of the game

Needlessly nerfing it will do jack to improve variety, it'll just kick resistance pilots in the sack

Just now, ficklegreendice said:

Of course you'd pay more for heroic on Wedge

Wedge is ******* insane

T-70s and even Rz-a2s? Not so much

Faction specific upgrade; context is ESSENTIAL

plus, I guarantee that there is less heroic on resistance pilots than there are empty or absent talent slots in the rest of the game

You just read past my whole point, didn't you?

I'm not saying it's a problem upgrade. I'm saying that at 1 point, it crowds out literally ALL other talents. It should be a choice. It's not a choice. It's stapled onto almost every resistance ship.

Show me the statistics to prove me wrong.

5 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

You just read past my whole point, didn't you?

I'm not saying it's a problem upgrade. I'm saying that at 1 point, it crowds out literally ALL other talents. It should be a choice. It's not a choice. It's stapled onto almost every resistance ship.

Show me the statistics to prove me wrong.

No I didn't read past it

As I stated at the end of the post, there really isn't a choice between talents whether or not you needlessly nerf heroic

The choice isn't heroic v everything else, it's heroic or nothing

The pilots just aren't safe nor cheap enough to warrant investing much more than heroic on them. Only the As Love their advanced optics; farlessso without heroic

5 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Speaking of Hull Upgrade: Heroic provides about 50% the defensive longevity to a T-70 that a Hull Upgrade would, at 20% the cost. Longevity of a Heroic T-70 is about half-way between the longevity of a Starwing and a U-Wing.

Seriously. Nantex is probably a real problem in terms of NPE and limited counterplay. Heroic? More of a thought experiment. Nantex threads dropped off the first page, and we've all already said what we had to say.

//

I guess overall I'd say that, in general, a Resistance ship with Heroic is certainly not too cheap. Can everyone agree on this? Can we agree that the final ship is somewhere between fair and overpriced?

I think, under the hood, most folks arguing for a more expensive Heroic are kinda arguing for cheaper Resistance ships.

I agree with this and think a nice experiment would be to test with lowering the costs of all Resistance ships by 1pt and then increasing heroic to 2pts. Would like to see how much it would change the amount of heroics taken.

4 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

And sure, if you're skilled enough to leverage the manueverability elements of the resistance and consistently outplay your opponent, then sure you don't NEED heroic

But there are plenty of lists out there that aren't kind to those expensive, skill dependent ships- particularly CiS and Sinker swarms. You'll REALLY want heroic to stop some bull dice from deciding the match during the opening salvo.

It's a great ability to balance out the factions' pilots (that can access it), it leads to MORE variety by allowing these interesting pilot abilities whereas not having heroic would just lead to empty talent slots

Yes I think that Resistance is best in the hands of a good player. In our playgroup we have a very good player and he stomps me easily when he plays Resistance, but indeed it's harder to learn than most lists of other factions so having Heroic is indeed great for less experienced players of Resistance.

That certain swarms are bad matchups for the faction I dont mind as long as the meta is wide and not to many of them as there are more things that struggle with it and also lists that struggle with Resistance

2 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

It's not dominating anything, so it's not overpowered...

It's just great. Let's leave it be

Its indeed great value as is

1 minute ago, Revanur said:

Its indeed great value as is

And in a faction with very poor cost --> value, particularly when compared to republic or empire, it's also great design

8 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

No I didn't read past it

As I stated at the end of the post, there really isn't a choice between talents whether or not you needlessly nerf heroic

The choice isn't heroic v everything else, it's heroic or nothing

The pilots just aren't safe enough to warrant investing much more than heroic on them. Only the As last be their advanced optics; farlessso without heroic

I have a lot of respect for your opinion, @ficklegreendice , but this is just completely senseless.

The Resistance ships aren't that much different from all the other factions . If you're saying that they're overpriced for how fragile they are, that's a different problem and should be addressed separately. I've you're saying that RNG is somehow worse for that faction than for the notoriously-green-dice-dependent Galactic Empire I completely can't follow your point.

Heroic is a lovely card and a cool design. It's autoinclude at 1 point. Other talents are playable in all other factions (and the ones that aren't should be reduced).

You know what else is an excellent value at 1 point? Crack Shot. And Intimidation is also an exceptional talent on A-Wing blockers. There are talents that are useful. And there are talents that should be useful but are overpriced (and should come down). Having one thing be underpriced to make up for something else that's overpriced is horrible game balance and reduces or eliminates choice.

12 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

plus, I guarantee that there is less heroic on resistance pilots than there are empty or absent talent slots in the rest of the game

Needlessly nerfing it will do jack to improve variety, it'll just kick resistance pilots in the sack

It's not true. At all. It's 100% completely the opposite. Even if you say 67% of talent slots are empty (which they aren't), I'll bet you it's way over 95% of resistance talent slots that have Heroic in them. And the number of other talents taken is probably under 1%.

4 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

No I didn't read past it

As I stated at the end of the post, there really isn't a choice between talents whether or not you needlessly nerf heroic

The choice isn't heroic v everything else, it's heroic or nothing

The pilots just aren't safe nor cheap enough to warrant investing much more than heroic on them. Only the As Love their advanced optics; farlessso without heroic

By this logic, it's not worth putting any upgrades on any ship due to it being possible for any ship to be destroyed in a turn or two if focused upon. So far I've seen a T-65 X-Wing get one shutted due to rolling all blanks when Vader got 2 hits and 2 crits. Both crits were Direct Hit. Most Ties have 3 to 4 hull and no shields, which mean they are prone to being one shot if unlucky. Even Vader can be one shot if he's unlucky. And the Falcon from my (admittedly limited) experience is either incredibly durable, or goes down in 2 to 3 turns. No middle ground.

4 minutes ago, Faerie1979 said:

By this logic, it's not worth putting any upgrades on any ship due to it being possible for any ship to be destroyed in a turn or two if focused upon. d.

If "by this logic" you mean "entirely ignoring point costs and defenses"

Cheap aces (Vader; Soontir) can get an upgrade a lot of the time, because they're so cheap for cost you might as well

Some ships, like the phantom, synergize STUPIDLY well with upgrades such as juke

And finally Jedi, big tanky and mobile point fortresses. Generally can afford regen because it skyrockets their durability and point fortressing capabilities

The resistance has ZERO of these. The t-70 especially is little better than an Arc when getting shot, only it's FAR more expensive to boot

Just now, ficklegreendice said:

And in a faction with very poor cost --> value, particularly when compared to republic or empire, it's also great design

Yes, but that means that the faction needs more good value options instead.

I really hope they (and FO) will get that when we get more options from ep9 and the series and/or from points adjustments

Its indeed a great design, but costing 1 or 2 wont change that fact.

2 minutes ago, Revanur said:

Yes, but that means that the faction needs more good value options instead.

I really hope they (and FO) will get that when we get more options from ep9 and the series and/or from points adjustments

Its indeed a great design, but costing 1 or 2 wont change that fact.

If the resistance needs more value options, they'll get it via stuff that can't take heroic. Simple

You use heroic to get those super fun abilities on the table, and leave it off pilots that would make it get silly

Rey and Vennie should've been good examples of this, but they're kinda way too pricey

Not sure why we're so gungho on seeing less cool stuff that isn't just a passive modifying pilot ability

1 minute ago, ficklegreendice said:

If "by this logic" you mean "entirely ignoring point costs and defenses"

Cheap aces (Vader; Soontir) can get an upgrade a lot of the time, because they're so cheap for cost you might as well

Some ships, like the phantom, synergize STUPIDLY well with upgrades such as juke

And finally Jedi, big tanky and mobile point fortresses. Generally can afford regen because it skyrockets their durability and point fortressing capabilities

The resistance has ZERO of these.

I didn't say it's easy to take out every ship in a turn or two, just that it's possible. I've been experimenting with putting an R5 droid on Luke Skywalker. And overall I've been pleased. A lot more so then with running an R2 droid. Often I found myself unwilling to be disarmed for a turn just to regain one shield. But negating crits or healing damage? That is far more useful so far.

6 hours ago, Lyynark said:

As others have already stated the talent is costed around the ships/pilots available to the Resistance faction. You cannot look at the cost in a vacuum or unfairly compare the talent to other talents because the other ones suck. That is an issue with the other talents, not with Heroic.

3pts would be an utter kill-stroke for a talent that rarely (if ever) triggers and that only gives you a second chance if you roll hilariously bad in the first case. As FickleGreenDice has pointed out Heroic provides absolutely nothing with regards to efficiency, it does literally nothing when there is is even a spec of paint in your roll, i.e. it does nothing for a "half-bad roll" and it cannot push those one/two hits into two/three like for example Predator can.

But unless there is a blanket “reduce cost of all talents”, Heroic is a bit of a no brainer and auto-include on all A-Wings. Sure it only triggers if you blank out, which doesn’t happen frequently when you’re throwing 3 (or more) dice. But it happens more frequently when you’ve got two green dice for defense (T-70), or two red dice for an attack beyond range 1 (A-Wing). And the point of the talent isn’t to maximize your potential, or add to your top-end, but rather as a safe-guard against those inevitable bad rolls that leave sighing because all you needed was *some* paint and instead the dice gave you middle fingers.

3 points would probably be too high. But 2pts is not outlandish, and only a hair higher than it currently is.

1 minute ago, Faerie1979 said:

I didn't say it's easy to take out every ship in a turn or two, just that it's possible. I've been experimenting with putting an R5 droid on Luke Skywalker. And overall I've been pleased. A lot more so then with running an R2 droid. Often I found myself unwilling to be disarmed for a turn just to regain one shield. But negating crits or healing damage? That is far more useful so far.

And again, resistance heroic ships can't hold a candle to Luke's durability (ala infinite forcus)

Context is essential, since we're dealing with faction specific tech

Just now, It’s One Of Ours said:

3 points would probably be too high. But 2pts is not outlandish, and only a hair higher than it currently is.

It's not outlandish where it currently is either?

Why fix what isn't broke? It's not gonna get the far more situational and expensive talents onto the resistance table regardless

1 minute ago, ficklegreendice said:

If "by this logic" you mean "entirely ignoring point costs and defenses"

Cheap aces (Vader; Soontir) can get an upgrade a lot of the time, because they're so cheap for cost you might as well

Some ships, like the phantom, synergize STUPIDLY well with upgrades such as juke

And finally Jedi, big tanky and mobile point fortresses. Generally can afford regen because it skyrockets their durability and point fortressing capabilities

The resistance has ZERO of these. The t-79 especially is little better than an Arc when getting shot, only it's FAR more expensive to boot

You're being inconsistent.

Cheap Aces: Tallie and L'ulo are much cheaper than the ones you listed.

OK no juke synergy that's fine but A-Wings are great with Snap Shot so...

Regen can also be taken on T-70s btw. And it has the exact same defense profile as the 7b except the 7B pays 8 points to gain a force and lose a hull. This is exaggerated at higher initiatives.

1 minute ago, ficklegreendice said:

If the resistance needs more value options, they'll get it via stuff that can't take heroic. Simple

You use heroic to get those super fun abilities on the table, and leave it off pilots that would make it get silly

Rey and Vennie should've been good examples of this, but they're kinda way too pricey

Not sure why we're so gungho on seeing less cool stuff that isn't just a passive modifying pilot ability

Not so simple: Are you saying they can only get new ships that don't have the talent slot?

Your arguments are really untenable. Vennie is great with Heroic, especially with Finn Gunner.

"Less cool" is highly subjective. "Less balanced" is not. Heroic is autoinclude and there's really no argument against that. The only other talents that are taken are on A-Wings that already have heroic equipped.

Heroic should be a good choice. It's not a choice. It's stapled on.

9 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

And again, resistance heroic ships can't hold a candle to Luke's durability (ala infinite forcus)

And AGAIN, Luke pays for that ability. Not all X-Wings taken are Luke. ALL Resistance talents taken are Heroic. This is the offender.

7 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

It's not outlandish where it currently is either?

Why fix what isn't broke? It's not gonna get the far more situational and expensive talents onto the resistance table regardless

Except it is. It's taken on every talent slot. There are no other choices being made. No empty slots and no other talents. Seeing at least some of one or the other would mean it's in a healthy place. It's not in a healthy place. It probably would be at 2 points. It definitely wouldn't at 3.

If Crack Shot were a point cheaper than Heroic, would you sometimes take it on an I1 A-Wing instead of Heroic? Maybe you would to get it to fit in the list better. If Predator were the same cost as Heroic, would you sometimes take it on Poe, who wants bullseye anyway for his S-Foils' barrel roll? Maybe you would for more offensive power.

You probably wouldn't. You'd probably still take Heroic. Becuase Heroic is worth 2 points.

Don't confuse the issue: A lot of resistance pilots are too expensive, notably the lower-I X-Wings, the YT-1300, and the Bomber (plus some transport/pods). The reason Resistance has trouble competing as aces is that it's I5-6 pilots are priced exactly where they should be, while several Imp/Repbublic I5-6s are way too cheap. That DOES NOT MEAN that they need an under-priced auto-include stapled-on faction talent to compensate. That does not make the game more fun; it reduces player choice.