Nah, bring the chassis all in line correctly. Everything should just be priced correctly, and then avoid making anything combo wing too powerful.
Heroic up to 2.
Those named talented T-70s could go down a point.
The Falcon could use a minor reduction and the bomber a major reduction of 4.

More variation in choice of talent is good.

---

No opinion on selfless.

Ruthless is sad. It looks like fun. But I've never actually been able to use it in a fleet. I feel like it should be 0 points, but it really shouldn't be 0points either.

Treacherous looks like 1pt.

Possible solution. Increase the cost of heroic by 1, decrease the cost of every Resistance ship with a talent by 1 (independent of other adjustments). Other talents become more competitive, but the faction's overall balance is intact.

3 points on Heroic would be ridiculously overpriced.

1 point is an interesting price for Heroic, since Heroic is as effective per point as Elusive on an X-Wing, or Lone Wolf or Predator+Elusive on an A-Wing. About 1/3rd the evades added, at 1/3rd the cost on a T-70, or 1/5th the evades and hits, for 1/5th the price.

Heroic doesn't have positioning requirements, or charges or anything--it just always never works. It's easy enough to go through an entire game with Heroic never triggering.

//

Also, I kind of think Resistance is a little over-priced, and increasing the cost on Heroic to 2 probably means every Resistance ship needs to go down a point. I wouldn't hate that--it'd add a lot more choice to how the stuff is built, but it does feel like there's a relationship between the cheapness of Heroic and the cost of Resistance stuff.

2 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Treacherous looks like 1pt.

Treacherous is a really tricky one. Depending on how you look at it, it's an immensely powerful Talent, possibly the best in the game. Statistically speaking, it's a rechargeable shield upgrade. It ought to cost like 14 points on a Nantex--8 for the shield and 6 for the R2.

Except... it's a geometrical upgrade and not a statistical one. I don't think I've ever seen it trigger.

But I still think 2 points is right, because of that massive upside. Get a ship in the right place, and it's beyond anything else out there.

6 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Nah, bring the chassis all in line correctly. Everything should just be priced correctly, and then avoid making anything combo wing too powerful.

It IS in line

And it isn't combo wing (it's literally a single card)

Heroic is at one point precisely because you can't really combo into anything outside Finn. It's **** luck insurance, as it only triggers on absolutely worthless rolls

Second, it might not be possible to cost things correctly otherwise. It might be the case that the t-70 and its fun movement shenanigans would be very difficult to attach an easy cost to. Go too high and it's trash; too low and it's just the best jouster with a manueverability that can surpass or confound any other ship (given the right pilot)

But you tack on Heroic, which is (again) just **** luck insurance, and now the chassis starts to make more sense. It doesn't get reliable access to fill mods like a target locked Jedi, it just doesn't pop when the stars misalign and take a chunk of your list with them.

The only actual combo is Finn. Nerf him if you want; don't screw the faction over

14 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

It IS in line

And it isn't combo wing (it's literally a single card)

Heroic is at one point precisely because you can't really combo into anything outside Finn. It's **** luck insurance, as it only triggers on absolutely worthless rolls

Second, it might not be possible to cost things correctly otherwise. It might be the case that the t-70 and its fun movement shenanigans would be very difficult to attach an easy cost to. Go too high and it's trash; too low and it's just the best jouster with a manueverability that can surpass or confound any other ship (given the right pilot)

But you tack on Heroic, which is (again) just **** luck insurance, and now the chassis starts to make more sense. It doesn't get reliable access to fill mods like a target locked Jedi, it just doesn't pop when the stars misalign and take a chunk of your list with them.

The only actual combo is Finn. Nerf him if you want; don't screw the faction over

Heroic is combo-wing. its literally efficiency.

I disagree completely.

27 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Heroic is combo-wing. its literally efficiency.

I disagree completely.

You keep using those words. I do not think they mean what you think they mean.

Combo-wing =/= efficiency. Combo-wing involves, well, combos. If you have a problem with efficiency upgrades, that's your prerogative, but say that, instead of a loaded phrase very few people will associate with your grievance.

Edit: That came off a little harsh. I'm not accusing you of being deliberately misleading. But I do feel that most people are going to think of something completely different when you say "combo-wing"

46 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Heroic is combo-wing. its literally efficiency.

I disagree completely.

It isn't "literally" efficiency at all

The fact that it's ridiculously conditional already precludes it from that category.

You can obviously map out probability to see how Heroic triggers, but you also have to remember it only modifies the absolute most worthless roll. If you only roll one side of paint, be they hit/evade or focus, which would be an *** roll, it doesn't do anything.

Force is "literally efficiency"

Finn pod is "literally efficiency"

Both case, all you have to do is roll and have a regenerating token/take a strain maybe.

Ito reliable dice modification, Heroic is more along the lines of predator at most--though I'd definitely say below. Heroic can't turn your one or two hits into two or three. It can only give you another chance after blanking out completely

Also, I'm pretty certain that the Resistance is balanced around Heroic. Again, inefficient ships + pilot ability taken up by maneuverability-enhancer = bad times ahead. Heroic gives them a buffer to survive terrible rng and keep their manueverability more relevant.

Only way around that would be to make it a ship ability, which is a lot of needless text and which would stack with pilots such as Bastian or Pava (who already have dice modifying abilities)

Heroic is not an especially points-efficient card. There is no reason to increase its price.

2 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Heroic is combo-wing. its literally efficiency.

I disagree completely.

Wut.

I’ve had some issues understanding some of the things you call “combo-wing,” and now it’s becoming more clear. If any upgrade that conditionally increases efficiency is “combo-wing,” do you just play without upgrades?

I’m not being snarky, I’m genuinely curious. If heroic is “combo-wing,” how did you play 1.0 at all past like wave 5?

Heroic is great.

But it does NOT need to be any higher than it is.

I’m definitely in on the “Heroic is fine as is” side of this. It can be a butt saver on occasion, but considering one focus result can screw you over, it balances out. I don’t think it is an auto include on anything aside from Finn, but is a good enough choice to see it regularly. And Finn is a bit of a can of worms unto himself, so I don’t really see it as reflecting on Heroic.

2 hours ago, FatherTurin said:

Wut.

I’ve had some issues understanding some of the things you call “combo-wing,” and now it’s becoming more clear. If any upgrade that conditionally increases efficiency is “combo-wing,” do you just play without upgrades?

I’m not being snarky, I’m genuinely curious. If heroic is “combo-wing,” how did you play 1.0 at all past like wave 5?

It’s an upgrade that specifically increases raw dice value. In that sense the argument that it’s perfect for the expensive not-good-to-lose resistance ships is actually a good argument. However it also leads to a safety tacking on more and more upgrades to a single ship which contributes to combo-wing. Resistance also currently has the most combo type of upgrades with the crew and heroic and tech.

Things that increase efficiency for cheap should be dealt with considerable caution. Imagine PTL being an upgrade again at 6 points.

Its not that that the game should avoid upgrades. In fact upgrades like heroic and some upgrades on every ship is the great part of xwing design. It makes differentiation and some amount of consistency. It’s when you start to get serious value on tons of efficiency and dice mitigation upgrades on two ships you start to walk once again into two fat ship combo wing

17 hours ago, Kleeg005 said:

When I fly other factions, I find myself frequently leaving the Talent slot empty, even if I have points to spend. So many Talents are so situational - once a game activation - for three and four points.

For some there are neat edge case builds like Ibtisam Arc1710 with Chopper astro and Elusive, Intimidiation Arvyl, Marksmanship Autoblaster, Bullseye talents on ship chassis already relying on bullseye abilities etc. But most are pretty expensive (aka useless/not worth it in many cases) now.

17 hours ago, Kleeg005 said:

Trick Shot, which you simply cannot chase; if you get it, great, otherwise why spend the points.

At introduction at 1pt it was clearly undercosted. Upgraded to 2 it was rather ok, cause in order to use it you have to hug obstacles (which is risky (flying errors and esp with small bases and weaponised tractor around)). At 2 pts not too much of an investment relative to their own cost and squishyness, Mining Guild Ties loved it!

Then came Rebel Han (with his stupid unlimited rerolls on everything, that should have been charge based as most other stuff!) in Abusive builds and Trick Shot got as a bystander nerf-hammered into the ground. At 4 pts you never see it. On a squishy Mining Tie that's far too many points. I wish Trick Shot had one cost for fixed arc ships and another cost for turreted ships.

15 hours ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

2pts would only be a hard sell for players trying to squeeze every last dime out of a 200pt list. It’s not a major investment at all. I disagree that 3pts would effectively kill it, because Fearless is still very usable. But 3pts does feel a bit too high IMO.

But at 1pt? Get the staple-gun ready, unless every other EPT goes down in cost.

As others have already stated the talent is costed around the ships/pilots available to the Resistance faction. You cannot look at the cost in a vacuum or unfairly compare the talent to other talents because the other ones suck. That is an issue with the other talents, not with Heroic.

3pts would be an utter kill-stroke for a talent that rarely (if ever) triggers and that only gives you a second chance if you roll hilariously bad in the first case. As FickleGreenDice has pointed out Heroic provides absolutely nothing with regards to efficiency, it does literally nothing when there is is even a spec of paint in your roll, i.e. it does nothing for a "half-bad roll" and it cannot push those one/two hits into two/three like for example Predator can.

4 hours ago, Managarmr said:

Then came Rebel Han (with his stupid unlimited rerolls on everything, that should have been charge based as most other stuff!) in Abusive builds and Trick Shot got as a bystander nerf-hammered into the ground. At 4 pts you never see it. On a squishy Mining Tie that's far too many points. I wish Trick Shot had one cost for fixed arc ships and another cost for turreted ships.

Unfortunately, Blackout is also something to bear in mind - Autothrusters to line up obstructed shots and the fact that Trick Shot - unlike Crack Shot, Predator and the rest - works with Torpedoes.

I agree it's far too expensive to pack on the Mining Guild TIE, but I'm not sure how you'd draw a distinction in that situation.

12 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Ruthless is sad. It looks like fun. But I've never actually been able to use it in a fleet. I feel like it should be 0 points, but it really shouldn't be 0points either.

It's not bad in a swarm, but pricing it is hard. I do want to give it a try on Barons of the Empire.

11 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

Ito reliable dice modification, Heroic is more along the lines of predator at most--though I'd definitely say below. Heroic can't turn your one or two hits into two or three. It can only give you another chance after blanking out completely

For T-70s it's always felt like a defensive upgrade - the odds of getting it on an attack roll are too low - in that case it comes up about 1 roll in 7; it does make them more effective, but I agree it's mostly bad luck insurance. I'm always hesitant about 'free dice modification' not dependant on actions, positioning or long-term costs but since to get it you have to roll as badly as it is feasibly possible to roll, I don't think it's too bad. I agree with the view that having some means of mitigating the octahedrons of inevitable betrayal makes sense when so many resistance pilots seem to push you into spending time and actions manouvring rather than turtling up behind stacks of tokens.

My main concern is the fact that no-one ever really considers any other talents, but then I suppose you can level the same argument at Fanatical; I don't think it's really a problem child on a T-70.

I'm a bit more hesitant on an RZ-2 A-wing. Resistance A-wings already have a huge amount going for them; they're manouvrable, they're cheap, they have their front-and-rear turret, all have a 'spare' talent slot compared to other equivalents, they have exceptional pilots, and now it's their attack rolls that are getting do-overs on a semi-regular basis. Especially with advanced optics on top, Yes, it's all about reliability not exceeding the 'normal' effect, but the odds of getting 2 hits is huge and continuously being hammered with multiple 2-hit attacks from all directions is very nasty indeed (TIE/sf and Nantex swarms are very nasty because they basically do the same thing).

2 hours ago, Lyynark said:

As others have already stated the talent is costed around the ships/pilots available to the Resistance faction. You cannot look at the cost in a vacuum or unfairly compare the talent to other talents because the other ones suck. That is an issue with the other talents, not with Heroic.

3pts would be an utter kill-stroke for a talent that rarely (if ever) triggers and that only gives you a second chance if you roll hilariously bad in the first case. As FickleGreenDice has pointed out Heroic provides absolutely nothing with regards to efficiency, it does literally nothing when there is is even a spec of paint in your roll, i.e. it does nothing for a "half-bad roll" and it cannot push those one/two hits into two/three like for example Predator can.

I really dont get that its costed around the ships. If you compare the rebel T65 vs the Resistance T70 base of the ship. (I3 generic vs I3 generic)

T70 costs 4 more points and differs:

+1 shield, better configuration, boost and barrol roll switched, hardpoint instead of torpedoes. Edit: + the option to take a tech upgrade

Taking a shield upgrade on a T65 costs 6 points alone. So I really dont see the cost of Heroic on it.

Same for the A-wings. 3 points more then Rebel counterpart and I think worth the difference even without 1pt heroic.

For its cost I have seen heroic do some very good things and often enough rolled all blanks on ships like Tie Aces to wish I could take Heroic for 1 point on them. I understand it's only insurance vs bad luck, but I would easily take that for only 1 point on many ships that depend on green dice for defence to much.

I feel that if every faction could take it you would see it way to much and it would increase in cost for sure. Now only in Resistance it comes up a lot there and might also warrant a slight increase.

I think Heroic would be fine at 2pts. I would be ok with it if stays at 1pt and think 3pts would be overpriced.

20 hours ago, LUZ_TAK said:

If it's autoinclude or nobrainer, it's too cheap.

I don't know about that. Regardless of price, it would likely be an autoinclude for me.

1 hour ago, Revanur said:

I really dont get that its costed around the ships. If you compare the rebel T65 vs the Resistance T70 base of the ship. (I3 generic vs I3 generic)

T70 costs 4 more points and differs:

+1 shield, better configuration, boost and barrol roll switched, hardpoint instead of torpedoes. Edit: + the option to take a tech upgrade

Taking a shield upgrade on a T65 costs 6 points alone. So I really dont see the cost of Heroic on it.

Same for the A-wings. 3 points more then Rebel counterpart and I think worth the difference even without 1pt heroic.

For its cost I have seen heroic do some very good things and often enough rolled all blanks on ships like Tie Aces to wish I could take Heroic for 1 point on them. I understand it's only insurance vs bad luck, but I would easily take that for only 1 point on many ships that depend on green dice for defence to much.

I feel that if every faction could take it you would see it way to much and it would increase in cost for sure. Now only in Resistance it comes up a lot there and might also warrant a slight increase.

I think Heroic would be fine at 2pts. I would be ok with it if stays at 1pt and think 3pts would be overpriced.

It’s not just the ships that’s it’s costed against, it’s the faction as a whole. Of course in the context of a tie swarm (or even an inferno squad mini swarm) or separatists or Jedi, Heroic would be phenomenally useful and probably justify a point increase. However, those factions can solve the “not enough ships” problem by tossing in another ship.

Other factions can toss in generics that cost between 19 and 26 points. Every other faction in the game (except First order) can field an 8 ship squad. The absolute most ships Resistance can put on the board is 6, and doing that requires a lot of naked A-Wings or pods. In other words, a bad list by any definition. Resistance lists need to work with relatively small numbers of ships that are good, but a little too good to have room for all the fixings. The cost difference between T-65’s and T-70s eventually adds up to an extra set of proton torpedoes.

So because they can’t load up on upgrades without seriously compromising their numbers, and they can’t just strip out upgrades to toss another body on the mat, they get Heroic.

Heroic has the benefit of being a decent card, but really fitting the identity of the Resistance. They are a plucky band of under-supplied Rebels (even more so than the rebellion) and they rely on their fighters and their pilots more than anything else.

20 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

Wait, why the **** should heroic be nerfed just because you wouldn't take other talents? Other talents, largely speaking, just suck in general

**** other talents

I'm paying premium for these ships here, why in the blue **** would I want to lose them to a fickle green blank out!? Unlike Jedi, resistance ships don't have force to crutch on without two VERY specific (and expensive!) named characters on 1 agility platforms!

Nerfing heroic just needlessly hurts the faction, unless you also knock a point off of everyone's base price

And then we can continue ignoring other talents because they haven't gotten any less situational 😎

EDIT: to hammer home why Heroic is good design specifically for the resistance , (even I wouldn't want to see it everywhere)

both the Rz-a2 and T-70 are designed to be inefficiently priced due to their maneuvering potential. The rz-a2 dial + aux arc speak for themselves, while T-70 pilots such as Kare, Wexley, Ello, and Nien illustrate that design direction with the T-70.

Heroic excellently balances out the emphasis on maneuverability against its greatest foe: bull dice. Nothing sucks worse than your A getting merced by a single lucky attack after all the work you've put into positioning it properly.

By and large, Heroic is to bad luck what insect spray is to insects. It repels bull more than it strengthens the ship (contrast force tokens) and helps maintain the faction's emphasis on maneuverability while curving the impact of dice.

A very calm and objective analysis.

I've played a lot both with and against Heroic and I do feel like it's better costed at 2 points. I love the principle behind the card and with a small roster Resistance haven't been dominant, but once they get more options blank protection is just exceptional for 1 point. At 2 I'd still run it on almost all my ships that are capable of taking it - which is quite telling imo.

Funny alot of people seem to be on the Hate Heroic band wagon, but I dont see Heroic Resistance lists burning up Competitive play. My experience with it is that if I have a few points left over and I am happy with my bid or just dont care I slot it in if I was not already using my EPT slot for something else. After that I have honestly found that it just pretty much guarantees it will never trigger, my dice seem VERY determined to not let it happen. If I fly with out it, double or triple, or quad blanks ALL game. soon as I slap it on I will not blank ever, I will get all blanks and 1 focus all the time tho.

I can tell you if heroic was 2 points I would not touch it with a 1000 ft pole, and I think you would find it would vanish from any list in competitive play with the exception of some of the super Ace 2 or 3 ship lists that go hmm you know every slot on my ships is filled except the EPT and a 25 point bid seems excessive....

36 minutes ago, FatherTurin said:

It’s not just the ships that’s it’s costed against, it’s the faction as a whole. Of course in the context of a tie swarm (or even an inferno squad mini swarm) or separatists or Jedi, Heroic would be phenomenally useful and probably justify a point increase. However, those factions can solve the “not enough ships” problem by tossing in another ship.

Other factions can toss in generics that cost between 19 and 26 points. Every other faction in the game (except First order) can field an 8 ship squad. The absolute most ships Resistance can put on the board is 6, and doing that requires a lot of naked A-Wings or pods. In other words, a bad list by any definition. Resistance lists need to work with relatively small numbers of ships that are good, but a little too good to have room for all the fixings. The cost difference between T-65’s and T-70s eventually adds up to an extra set of proton torpedoes.

So because they can’t load up on upgrades without seriously compromising their numbers, and they can’t just strip out upgrades to toss another body on the mat, they get Heroic.

Heroic has the benefit of being a decent card, but really fitting the identity of the Resistance. They are a plucky band of under-supplied Rebels (even more so than the rebellion) and they rely on their fighters and their pilots more than anything else.

So because the Resistance can't field the great 8x Z95 where the Rebels can they need Heroic to be cheap?

Although Rebels have an option get more ships on the table, the average Rebel ship count I see on the board is 4. Much like Resistance. And I don't think having 1 torpedo upgrade when you field 3xT65 vs 3x T70 will make it to be in the Rebels favor.

With most other faction I would mostly want Heroic on my more fragile aces and not in my swarm lists anyway. Never feel like throwing in a I1 Tie/Ln is the way to go when building Imp aces.

The extra shield on the T70 is already build in extra protection for the price. For the A-wings the fact that they can do a lot more maneuvers to shoot from a safe space with the rear firing makes up for the price difference.

Dont get me wrong. I like playing against Resistance and am very ok with Resistance having Heroic. But I think it should be priced on what it does and not on the idea that the ships need the help so much as I dont think they do. And I feel that both 1 and 2 are ok prices for it with 2 getting my preference.

44 minutes ago, Revanur said:

So because the Resistance can't field the great 8x Z95 where the Rebels can they need Heroic to be cheap?

Although Rebels have an option get more ships on the table, the average Rebel ship count I see on the board is 4. Much like Resistance. And I don't think having 1 torpedo upgrade when you field 3xT65 vs 3x T70 will make it to be in the Rebels favor.

With most other faction I would mostly want Heroic on my more fragile aces and not in my swarm lists anyway. Never feel like throwing in a I1 Tie/Ln is the way to go when building Imp aces.

The extra shield on the T70 is already build in extra protection for the price. For the A-wings the fact that they can do a lot more maneuvers to shoot from a safe space with the rear firing makes up for the price difference.

1.) No.

It's because the Resistance can't field things like Biggs or Wedge or Norra; pilots with incredibly powerful dice modifying abilities

The only similar guys we got is Poe (super expensive, self stress), and then Vennie, Rey falcon, and maybe Bastian/Pava-- all of which cannot take heroic

Only Finn stands out as a potential combo

2.) LOL no

There isn't a rational mind in the universe (of x-wing miniatures) that should consider a shield upgrade to be worth a laughable 3 point premium (or more, depending on which initiatives you're comparing).

The partisan/blue squaddie + 4 points --> I1 T-70

That's already shield upgrade prices (albeit on 1 agility), and that is horrible.

The shield/hull upgrades are intentionally priced to be ridiculously inefficient specifically so they do NOT become auto-include

And the cost disparity only gets worse at higher initiatives. NN is a full 7 over thane and exactly the same as Wedge, despite the I 6 premium. You need Heroic to help bridge the gap in order to have interesting, manuever based abilities while not shooting your pilot in the foot (while also not reducing costs to the point that they completely trololo over the t-65 and other faction offerings)

And no, the Rz-a2s aren't particularly well priced either (after the Lulo cost adjustment, ofc). They pay quite well for their added capabilities and need heroic atop it to stop your investment from poofing in on bad roll.

Why is the Rz-a1 so inferior, then? Because the rz-a1 is awfully overcosted . It is a TERRIBLE metric to measure anything against.

Heroic is one of the best designed upgrades in the game, made with a specific purpose in mind and accomplishing that amazingly without dominating the game. Why in the blue **** are we complaining about it?

What happened to the Nantex!?

3 hours ago, Revanur said:

I really dont get that its costed around the ships. If you compare the rebel T65 vs the Resistance T70 base of the ship. (I3 generic vs I3 generic)

T70 costs 4 more points and differs:

+1 shield, better configuration, boost and barrol roll switched, hardpoint instead of torpedoes. Edit: + the option to take a tech upgrade

Taking a shield upgrade on a T65 costs 6 points alone. So I really dont see the cost of Heroic on it.

Same for the A-wings. 3 points more then Rebel counterpart and I think worth the difference even without 1pt heroic.

a) Using shield upgrade to compare ships is never a good idea. The universal accessibility of the card means it's overcosted on >95% of the ships in the game, because of the other <5% (Soontir, Pure Sabaac, etc.) who get a disporportionate value out of the card.

b) The boost barrel roll switch is a negative in my experience, but YMMV I suppose

c) For filler like a generic x-wing, those 4 points are a deal breaker, honestly. Only the shield upgrade helps a generic x-wing do its job, and that really isn't worth so many points