I played a game last week against a friend who hadn’t faced resistance yet. I played my 5 A-Wing list and he was playing Separatists.

It was a great game, could have gone either way thanks to some crazy dice variance at a few points, but ultimately he was surprised that Heroic was only 1 point. This guy has the worst luck and always seems to blank out at the worst possible time, and having the extra insurance of Heroic would be a godsend to him.

His comment got me thinking about a lot of the opinions I’ve seen that Heroic should be 2 points. I disagree, and for all the reasons that have been brought up before: its really of limited usefulness and is just an insurance card. Then I realized another reason that I think it should remain 1 point.

It’s pretty integral to the Resistance faction identity.

Sure, every faction is their talent card, but none of them is quite as central to many pilots in the faction as Heroic. Fearless and Selfless all see their uses, but Heroic is everywhere, and for good reason. It’s almost like the Resistance’s “faction ability.”

Setting aside the admirable folks who keep trying to make the Falcon or Bomber work, Resistance is a 2.5 ship faction. The transport sees some play, as does Finn, but the backbone of the faction is X-Wings and A-Wings (maybe soon Y’s as well). They are still mostly an ace faction that relies on those two ships to out-fight the opponent. And they are expensive. 3-4 points more expensive than their GCW counterparts means those points add up, and even if you have space at the end, there is no real filler ship in the faction. The Pod comes closest, but BB-8 or Rose are bad filler, Vi has a job to do, and Finn is not filler.

I’m not saying the price increase is bad. The added abilities and stats of the Resistance ships results in a well deserved price premium. But the end result is that the Resistance has to rely on quality over quantity like no other faction in the game. Even a comparable rebel list will likely have an extra ship over the Resistance squad.

Enter Heroic. It’s just a little bit of extra insurance. One point to add some survivability to our fighters, whether it’s a Black Squadron Ace, Tallie (admittedly a little undercosted), or Poe (decidedly NOT overcosted...or undercosted).

On the one hand, it pushes out most other talents since Heroic is cheap, and while it may not always come into play, when it does, it is clutch. But is the answer to increase the cost of Heroic? Not in my opinion. The answer is to accept Heroic as one of the key cards for the Resistance, as integral as a T-70, or to design other talents that could compete.

Anyway, so ends my essay.

Heroic and Advanced Optics are great cards because they nip the negative extremes of the dice variance curve.

Very similar to skill checks in the outer rim game, Heroic AO RZ2 offensive rolls are how dice variance should feel for all attacks

Heck, I played the game variant someone made where you just look up the damage on a chart, and it felt great

I feel like this argument reads like, "Heroic shouldn't be nerfed because it synergizes very well with the resistance ships (lots of 2att/def ships), and is an integral part of the faction".

That's like saying that Juke should never have been nerfed because it synergizes well with the phantom and it should be accepted as an integral part of the ship, or trick shot shouldn't have been nerfed because it synergizes well with large base ships and mobile arcs, and should be accepted as an integral part of a large base ship.

I recognize the arguments that it doesn't trigger that often, and I'm not 100% sure if it should be 2 points, but no upgrade should be an auto-include on a ship, and Heroic is pretty auto-include on many ships. (Finn comes to mind, but there are many others). We should be seeing many different upgrades competing for all upgrade slots, and Heroic dominates the Resistance talent slot like no other.

At most, I could see Heroic going up a point or two. Which may seem catastrophic to some, but really isn’t a major issue at all. At 2pts, the upgrade becomes 1/100th of a standard 200pt list, instead of it’s current 1/200th. If we convert that back to 1st edition prices and list-building, it would still be a 1pt talent. 2pts for Heroic is not in any way unreasonable, especially for what you get out of it.

3pts would give a lot of players pause, and to me that seems a tad too high IMO. It could still be done, and wouldn’t be too outlandish. But does Heroic need to be more? Meh... It is a go-to for most Resistance ships, especially fighters. And it helps to keep them effective/alive when the dice fail you. I think the only reason there really is for bumping Heroic up in cost, would be to make it less-likely to be stapled to every Resistance ace.

4 minutes ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

At most, I could see Heroic going up a point or two. Which may seem catastrophic to some, but really isn’t a major issue at all. At 2pts, the upgrade becomes 1/100th of a standard 200pt list, instead of it’s current 1/200th. If we convert that back to 1st edition prices and list-building, it would still be a 1pt talent. 2pts for Heroic is not in any way unreasonable, especially for what you get out of it.

3pts would give a lot of players pause, and to me that seems a tad too high IMO. It could still be done, and wouldn’t be too outlandish. But does Heroic need to be more? Meh... It is a go-to for most Resistance ships, especially fighters. And it helps to keep them effective/alive when the dice fail you. I think the only reason there really is for bumping Heroic up in cost, would be to make it less-likely to be stapled to every Resistance ace.

Increasing Heroic to 3pts would effectively kill the talent, at 2pts it would be a very hard sell. It triggers rather rarely and becomes increasingly worse the more dice you have. Which makes sense from a balance perspective. Add to that the fact that you have almost no agency as to when it triggers. It is completely down to chance.

Some might be offended by it's existence because it cheated them out of a one-shot kill once but that is hardly an argument against it. One reason Heroic is seen so very often is due to the lack of EPTs at that price point. And to be fair, heroic is often sidelined by crack shot. So far the real power user for Heroic is Finn and he really isn't that bad after the change to strain. Add to that that he actually has to produce two blanks on his initial roll as well.

Heroic = Slap it on, good to go variance mitigation for basically free that works for every platform in the faction. Comparing it to Fearless is laughable at best mostly due to Fearless's cost not just being its 3pts to equip but also putting your ship at the best spot for your target to delete it (with very few exceptions). Heroic doesn't have that risk, much less any hoops to jump through, at all. It is worth 2 points minimum.

When I fly other factions, I find myself frequently leaving the Talent slot empty, even if I have points to spend. So many Talents are so situational - once a game activation - for three and four points. Trick Shot, which you simply cannot chase; if you get it, great, otherwise why spend the points. Elusive, which is fine on some ships because they already have "crap" dials (B-wing, G1-A), and okay on others because they have all the blues in the world to get of the stress required to recharge, is generally a once per game Talent for most ships for three points. Debris Gambit, effectively useless when the focus action is 99% of the time the correct choice over evade. Intimidation - can you really afford to not be shooting - situational much? Even other 1 point Talents - Crack Shot is a single-use, difficult to activate Talent. Marksmanship: difficult to chase down, and effectively shut down by shields and a handful of ship abilities. Composure, because how often do you fail your other actions (outside of edge cases like Temmin "Snap" Wexley)? Heroic at one point is something like Crack Shot: if I have a couple points left over, I'll drop it on for that probable single use every few games or so. If Heroic went up to even two points, it would be a tough sell - I'd probably just go Crack, if I spend the points at all. And let's face it: most Talents right now are costed as if every ship gained the same utility as the single pilot that can actually make use of it. I don't know if that's good or bad.

edit: Yeah, next to Fearless and Ruthless, Heroic feels somewhat undercosted. But maybe that's because Fearless and Ruthless are overcosted?

50 minutes ago, prauxim said:

Heck, I played the game variant someone made where you just look up the damage on a chart, and it felt great

I haven't heared of this, but it sound fun, how does it work?

If it's autoinclude or nobrainer, it's too cheap.

13 minutes ago, Rickwilljames said:

I haven't heared of this, but it sound fun, how does it work?

Wow, I actually bookmarked it and was able to find it later, a hallmark achievment on my part

Hyperpractice – Learn a List in a Day

It can invalidate certain game mechanics, and definitely isn't a "proper" game mode, but if both players are on board it can be pretty fun way to rapidly play/practice

1 hour ago, prauxim said:

Heroic and Advanced Optics are great cards because they nip the negative extremes of the dice variance curve.

Very similar to skill checks in the outer rim game, Heroic AO RZ2 offensive rolls are how dice variance should feel for all attacks

Heck, I played the game variant someone made where you just look up the damage on a chart, and it felt great

“Average damage” X-Wing is one of my favorite formats. We round all rolls up. It really changes the game.

43 minutes ago, LUZ_TAK said:

If it's autoinclude or nobrainer, it's too cheap.

Not really. Maybe the competing options just suck. Example: If you nerf Sonntir Fel to the ground, we will not see more Turr Phennirs or Saber Squadron Aces. We will just not see Interceptors anymore.
Same with Heroic. If you make it 3 points, Resistance players will just leave the talent slot empty.

In my opinion it works like this:

Something is dominating the tournament scene = Too cheap (Quad Phantoms, Rebel Beef, etc.)
Something doesn't see tournament play = Too expensive
Something is regularly seeing tournament play = Costed perfectly

You nerf the first, you buff the second and you leave the third alone. Heroic is clearly in the last category.

only freaking time i used it i was so excited, only to roll 2 blanks into 2 blanks. thats (3.4)^4. about 2%. (Had a focus too)

Still happens. =/

6 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

only freaking time i used it i was so excited, only to roll 2 blanks into 2 blanks. thats (3.4)^4. about 2%. (Had a focus too)

Still happens. =/

See my critically acclaimed comment on such topics

47 minutes ago, Lyynark said:

Increasing Heroic to 3pts would effectively kill the talent, at 2pts it would be a very hard sell. It triggers rather rarely and becomes increasingly worse the more dice you have. Which makes sense from a balance perspective. Add to that the fact that you have almost no agency as to when it triggers. It is completely down to chance.

Some might be offended by it's existence because it cheated them out of a one-shot kill once but that is hardly an argument against it. One reason Heroic is seen so very often is due to the lack of EPTs at that price point. And to be fair, heroic is often sidelined by crack shot. So far the real power user for Heroic is Finn and he really isn't that bad after the change to strain. Add to that that he actually has to produce two blanks on his initial roll as well.

2pts would only be a hard sell for players trying to squeeze every last dime out of a 200pt list. It’s not a major investment at all. I disagree that 3pts would effectively kill it, because Fearless is still very usable. But 3pts does feel a bit too high IMO.

But at 1pt? Get the staple-gun ready, unless every other EPT goes down in cost.

Wait, why the **** should heroic be nerfed just because you wouldn't take other talents? Other talents, largely speaking, just suck in general

**** other talents

I'm paying premium for these ships here, why in the blue **** would I want to lose them to a fickle green blank out!? Unlike Jedi, resistance ships don't have force to crutch on without two VERY specific (and expensive!) named characters on 1 agility platforms!

Nerfing heroic just needlessly hurts the faction, unless you also knock a point off of everyone's base price

And then we can continue ignoring other talents because they haven't gotten any less situational 😎

EDIT: to hammer home why Heroic is good design specifically for the resistance , (even I wouldn't want to see it everywhere)

both the Rz-a2 and T-70 are designed to be inefficiently priced due to their maneuvering potential. The rz-a2 dial + aux arc speak for themselves, while T-70 pilots such as Kare, Wexley, Ello, and Nien illustrate that design direction with the T-70.

Heroic excellently balances out the emphasis on maneuverability against its greatest foe: bull dice. Nothing sucks worse than your A getting merced by a single lucky attack after all the work you've put into positioning it properly.

By and large, Heroic is to bad luck what insect spray is to insects. It repels bull more than it strengthens the ship (contrast force tokens) and helps maintain the faction's emphasis on maneuverability while curving the impact of dice.

IMHO......

They got heroic RIGHT. A cheap faction identity talent upgrade. Fun and defining but not game changing OP.

They need MORE good talents. AND they need to rerelease the flops.

Imperial..... WHAT WERE YOU THINKING FFG????

Rebels....... okayyyy, I guess, -1 pt?

Scum........ awesome, love it, -1 pt?

Republic... WHAT WERE YOU THINKING FFG????

Separatists.... honestly I don’t know what their faction upgrade is

FO ..... pretty good, pretty good.

Resistance ...... awesomeness!

19 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Wait, why the **** should heroic be nerfed just because you wouldn't take other talents?

**** other talents

I'm paying premium for these ships here, why in the blue **** would I want to lose them to a fickle green blank out!?

Nerfing heroic just needlessly hurts the faction, unless you knock a point off of everyone's base price

This is exactly what I was trying to say, but more succinct. Thanks!

4 minutes ago, JBFancourt said:

IMHO......

They got heroic RIGHT. A cheap faction identity talent upgrade. Fun and defining but not game changing OP.

They need MORE good talents. AND they need to rerelease the flops.

Imperial..... WHAT WERE YOU THINKING FFG????

Rebels....... okayyyy, I guess, -1 pt?

Scum........ awesome, love it, -1 pt?

Republic... WHAT WERE YOU THINKING FFG????

Separatists.... honestly I don’t know what their faction upgrade is

FO ..... pretty good, pretty good.

Resistance ...... awesomeness!

Separatists have Treacherous, which is actually pretty good, but based on the requirements to make it work could maybe stand to be 1 point as well. Although, reducing damage and potentially handing out strain to enemy ships is no joke. I’m honestly surprised that Sun Fac with Ensnare and Treacherous hasn’t seen more play at a cool 80 points.

I’m an imperial player and I cry a little inside every time I see ruthlessness.

😠 😩 😭

It was one of my favorite upgrades in 1e. It got Dengar-ed. And it wasn’t even that op either from what I recall.

1 hour ago, Naerytar said:

Not really. Maybe the competing options just suck. Example: If you nerf Sonntir Fel to the ground, we will not see more Turr Phennirs or Saber Squadron Aces. We will just not see Interceptors anymore.
Same with Heroic. If you make it 3 points, Resistance players will just leave the talent slot empty.

In my opinion it works like this:

Something is dominating the tournament scene = Too cheap (Quad Phantoms, Rebel Beef, etc.)
Something doesn't see tournament play = Too expensive
Something is regularly seeing tournament play = Costed perfectly

You nerf the first, you buff the second and you leave the third alone. Heroic is clearly in the last category.

40 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Wait, why the **** should heroic be nerfed just because you wouldn't take other talents? Other talents, largely speaking, just suck in general

**** other talents

I'm paying premium for these ships here, why in the blue **** would I want to lose them to a fickle green blank out!? Unlike Jedi, resistance ships don't have force to crutch on without two VERY specific (and expensive!) named characters on 1 agility platforms!

Nerfing heroic just needlessly hurts the faction, unless you also knock a point off of everyone's base price

And then we can continue ignoring other talents because they haven't gotten any less situational 😎

EDIT: to hammer home why Heroic is good design specifically for the resistance , (even I wouldn't want to see it everywhere)

both the Rz-a2 and T-70 are designed to be inefficiently priced due to their maneuvering potential. The rz-a2 dial + aux arc speak for themselves, while T-70 pilots such as Kare, Wexley, Ello, and Nien illustrate that design direction with the T-70.

Heroic excellently balances out the emphasis on maneuverability against its greatest foe: bull dice. Nothing sucks worse than your A getting merced by a single lucky attack after all the work you've put into positioning it properly.

By and large, Heroic is to bad luck what insect spray is to insects. It repels bull more than it strengthens the ship (contrast force tokens) and helps maintain the faction's emphasis on maneuverability while curving the impact of dice.

I am out of reacts for the day, it would appear. But these guys get it. Thanks to you both! A much better representation than I was able to present!

After I’ve said all this, I will add something else: heroic on a Y-Wing with an ion turret and VTG might end up being a little too much variance mitigation. To the best of my knowledge, there’s no way to put together a double-tap build with Heroic on any other ship, so i don’t believe it’s been tested to see how good it would be. Then again, Heroic can’t proc on a Y’s evade roll outside of range 3, so maybe it will be fine.

Maybe ship-based variable pricing? Maybe it won’t be a problem at all?

It won't be a problem at all

Matchstick already has a VASTLY superior version of heroic and his poor *** ain't ever seeing play at his price point

Plus, who knows? Resistance bombers ain't got no talent, so maybe their Ys don't either. The transports already don't, outside Cova

Ps: to reinforce my belief that the resistance is a manuever based faction, just look at their next upcoming release!

In my opinion Heroic and fanatical are the best faction specific talents. However I just dont see the need to increase their points yet. As the factions grow they may need to increase the cost of those talents. Those abilities need to be great to make up for a limited bench.

The republic has jedi and separatists have great swarm options to make for their abilities not being quite as strong.

The big 3 on the other hand are all kind of meh.....

Resistance isn't making up 30 or 40 percent the field. I thinks it okay to have some umdercosted talents for time being.

You can keep heroic at one if Scum can stop paying for their useless illicit slots! Seriously, heroic is too good for 2 points, let alone 1,

Heroic really isn't too good, or else it'd be dominating.

Remember, folks. Everything is relative

Heroic on resistance ships is fine and a large part of balancing their lackluster stats against their pretty great manueverability. They'd be WAY too rng prone otherwise, far more so than other factions with access to cheaper pilots

By contrast, Heroic on Jedi would be a ******* issue