Original blog can be found here:

https://butsuppression.blogspot.com/2019/10/republic-musings-pt-i.html

Republic Musings, Pt. I

Units the Republic doesn't need.

With the official release of the Clone Wars Core Set this week, the Republic has been on my mind. While I'm sure most people are excited to finally get the long-awaited troopers put together and painted, and play Obi's "Hello There!" card, I've been looking more to the future of the faction. I'm sure Master Yoda would hit me with his cane for not having patience and keeping my mind on what I'm doing, but I thought I'd share some of the thoughts I've had on what future expansions and units for the Republic could look like, and a few examples of what I hope they don't look like.

What shouldn't be added to the game

Though unpopular, this seems to be the place to say what I don't think should be added to the game. These are here for a variety of reasons, be it balancing issues, their size, or simply that I don't really know what role they would fill that wouldn't be redundant. I've argued some of these points before, but I'll argue them again here. Feel free to disagree with me, I just think these units don't fit the game, or simply shouldn't be out anytime soon.

Jedi Knight Squad
This seems to be a popular idea for a variety of reasons, and I have to say, I think it is one of the worst ideas for a unit I've ever heard. Jedi are supposed to be extremely powerful; even the much-maligned Clone Wars-era Jedi Order had some of the best-trained warriors, I mean, keepers of the peace, the galaxy has ever seen. To have a unit feel like a Jedi in the game, they would need to have a pretty solid attack, Pierce, be immune to pierce, have deflect, and a Force upgrade slot. That's fine for a single mini-unit, but when you start to add in other minis, it gets ridiculous. Even if you only have pierce 1 on the lightsaber (which is horribly low), that stacks, and you'd end up with a relatively high Pierce value. I've yet to hear a way to introduce this into the game that wouldn't leave your characters as glorified Wookiees or Royal Guardsmen, and yet be balanced.

"Hey, Obi, you hear they want a full squad of Jedi?" "No, Mace, I haven't. That would be silly."

Large vehicles
This one is pretty obvious; large vehicles shouldn't be in the game. As cool as they could be, the practicalities of having them on the table would be problematic, and balancing them would be a nightmare. In that category, I'll include the AT-TE, the Juggernaut, and large fighters like the V-19 Torrent, the Y-Wing, and the ARC-170. While cool as terrain pieces, they simply don't fit the scale of Legion as units, and shouldn't be brought in. A sliding scale could make them work, but it's far from ideal. If these vehicles must be included, doing so as terrain pieces work better, and could be done as either wrecks or as complete vehicles.

As cool as the Turtle walker is, it just doesn't fit the scale of a movable unit.

Medic Droids
This one is a bit nit-picky, as I really do want the Republic to have access to medics. Instead of surgical droids like they did with the GCW factions, I really hope they give us honest to goodness combat medics. At the very least, the image of a surgical droid rolling across the battlefield is a bit ridiculous; more importantly, the Republic is the only faction that has on-screen medics, both in Episode III, and in the TCW show. More interestingly, I think that Republic medics shouldn't have the noncombatant limitation. Republic forces are likely going to be outnumbered on almost every game they play; it doesn't make sense they would have guys that can't really contribute besides handing out motrin and bandaids. As such, their medics should be able to fight as well as heal, though they would have to be priced accordingly.

I'm not a droid! And I will shoot you!

Palpatine/Sidious
Another unit I've seen tossed around a lot is the idea that the Senate needs to be brought into the game, either as an alternate Chancellor Palpatine/Darth Sidious, or some sort of anti-Jedi character. I have to ask, why? Darth Sidious wouldn't be all that different than Emperor Palpatine, and he never led troops into battle for either side. Chancellor Palpatine could be an interesting support unit, but the same problem remains: he was a politician, not a commander, and shouldn't be shoehorned into the game. The only way to bring ole Sparky into the game would be as an objective (capture the Chancellor, anyone?) and even then, its a stretch.

The Senate when he finds out you want him to go fix a Moisture Vaporator.

Qui-Gon Jinn
If you're like me, you thoroughly enjoyed Qui-Gon in Episode I. He, more so than Obi-Wan or Yoda, was our first real taste of what a Jedi Knight was. That said, we need to remember that Qui-Gon didn't fight for the Republic in the Clone Wars because of a little problem: he was dead. Whoops. As iconic as he is, there are dozens of other Jedi that would work so much better than him and should be brought into the game well before him. I can see a time when Qui-Gon would fit in the game, but its well down the road.

Sorry, Qui-Gon, being alive is a prereq for being in the Clone Wars.

ARC Trooper Squad
This is another one I've argued about many, many times. If you can't tell by my username, I'm quite fond of ARC troopers. I really like them as a concept, and most of their original appearances were awesome. That said, I really don't want to see a full squad of ARCs in the game in the same manner as Death Troopers or other SF teams. That role can be reserved for Clone Commandos or other units. ARC troopers should be something different; ideally Operatives. I could see them operating solo or in two-man teams. (which is how they were used the majority of the time in both the EU and Canon) They would also be a great upgrade, though the recently revealed Captain and the older Officer upgrade takes the majority of that role now. I'm likely as not going to be disappointed with the direction FFG takes with these, but it was worth including now just so I can complain later.

ARC Troopers, so badass they don't need a squad to wreck shop.

Swamp Speeder/Infantry Support Platform
I'll admit, I'm incredibly biased on this one. I just hate how the ISP looks. It's an uparmored airboat, and not something that makes sense to me considering the other vehicles in the Republic's inventory. In Legion, I'm not quite sure how it will find its own niche; its too big to be a heavier BARC speeder, and the Saber Tank is better as a repulsor tank. Though it could be shoehorned in as an analog for the Landspeeder, Naboo security units have a variety of offerings in that area that would serve the role better. The Swamp Speeder is often forgotten, and I for one hope that Legion forgets it as well.

"This thing sucks, let's get a cooler ride."

Darth Jar Jar
OK, OK, this one is a joke. I really don't expect we'll ever see Darth Jar Jar in the game. But that's not a bad thing. The theory is a funny one that makes you think for half a second, but that's it. It shouldn't be taken too seriously, and those that do need to lay off the death sticks.

"Messa a funny joke, but shouldn't be taken seriously."

Final Thoughts

While there are certainly others I'd rather not see, those are the big units that I think the Republic would be better off without, at least for the time being. What do you think? Anything I missed, or are you absolutely convinced that the game needs a squad of ARC trooper Jedi Knight Darth Jar Jars? Let us know!

Stay tuned for part II on Friday, units that I think the Republic does need!

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Well I agree with most of your thoughts except Qui-Gonn, Darth Maul is confirmed Qui-Gon should be available to play as well

1 minute ago, TheHoosh said:

Well I agree with most of your thoughts except Qui-Gonn, Darth Maul is confirmed Qui-Gon should be available to play as well

And what is your logic here?
I would say that I'd like to leave Darth Maul as a unit for none of the existing factions since he never fought for the CIS in any capacity.

1 minute ago, Zrob314 said:

And what is your logic here?
I would say that I'd like to leave Darth Maul as a unit for none of the existing factions since he never fought for the CIS in any capacity.

Controversial opinion... Maul should be the light-saber commander for the scum faction (should we get one.)

1 minute ago, Draycos said:

Controversial opinion... Maul should be the light-saber commander for the scum faction (should we get one.)

With The Darksaber as a potential armament upgrade (and better dice than Sabine has for it)

Darth Maul is going to be in the game according to the devs and so should Qui-Gon, the only logic I need is that the clone wars is really covering the prequel trilogies not the point at which the "clone wars" themselves started. Heck he has a more valid reason to be in there along with Darth Maul than Rex or anything from the cartoons just based on name recognition selling models.

31 minutes ago, TheHoosh said:

Darth Maul is going to be in the game according to the devs and so should Qui-Gon, the only logic I need is that the clone wars is really covering the prequel trilogies not the point at which the "clone wars" themselves started. Heck he has a more valid reason to be in there along with Darth Maul than Rex or anything from the cartoons just based on name recognition selling models.

You're assuming more people watched (and enjoyed) the prequels than watched and enjoyed the Clone wars cartoon movie and tv show. They could just have easily called it "Attack of the Clones Starter Set" or "Revenge of the Sith Starter Set" if they wanted prequel recognition, akin to X-wing v1's "Force Awakens" starter. Recognising the name, and being motivated to buy the product because of that recognition are two different things.

That said, what is your supporting evidence that FFG is meaning the entirety of the prequels when they say "Clone Wars" for Legion specifically? It's not like they released or even previewed Gungans (which still wouldn't be an indicator as Gungans appear as a fighting force in a few Clone Wars episodes).

Did they say HOW Darth Maul was going to be in the game? If they didn't specify he would be part of the CIS, then they have two methods of including Maul available that Disney would be mostly likely to approve: as an Operative for the Rebels, or (probably more likely) as a Commander for a "Criminal" faction, which fits perfectly into the canon of the Clone Wars.

54 minutes ago, TheHoosh said:

Darth Maul is going to be in the game according to the devs and so should Qui-Gon, the only logic I need is that the clone wars is really covering the prequel trilogies not the point at which the "clone wars" themselves started. Heck he has a more valid reason to be in there along with Darth Maul than Rex or anything from the cartoons just based on name recognition selling models.

TheHoosh my friend, while I am a huge fan of Qui-gon myself, he doesn't appear in the clone wars. The Clone Wars is episode II-III Including The Clone Wars TV show, and Darth Maul creates a Dark Criminal Organization(Thus him appearing in the future{hopefully} Scum Faction) and along with his brother, Savage Opress, The Mandalorian Death Watch, and his Shadow Collective, He conquers Mandalore, and thus the Siege of Mandalore happens. The Seige of Mandalore Arc will be a big part of the Final season of the Clone Wars, which warrants an appearance in legion. Qui-gon is qui-Gone at this point, and returns as a semi-force ghost, having discovered the secret in his years of study as a Jedi Knight. At most, he might have a force upgrade card called "Qui-gon's Guidance" or something, but we will not have him appear in the game as a fighting figure. Unless the Mouse makes a clone of him as a surprise for season 7. The Clone Wars Tv show was pretty much all I watched while I was a child, so "based on name recognition" alone, Rex, and the other Clones will ring a louder bell than Qui-gon, simply because I know more about him than I know about the Jedi Knight. There's next to know chance he'll be there, I'm sorry friend.

-Arctic

Just now, ArcticJedi said:

TheHoosh my friend, while I am a huge fan of Qui-gon myself, he doesn't appear in the clone wars. The Clone Wars is episode II-III Including The Clone Wars TV show, and Darth Maul creates a Dark Criminal Organization(Thus him appearing in the future{hopefully} Scum Faction) and along with his brother, Savage Opress, The Mandalorian Death Watch, and his Shadow Collective, He conquers Mandalore, and thus the Siege of Mandalore happens. The Seige of Mandalore Arc will be a big part of the Final season of the Clone Wars, which warrants an appearance in legion. Qui-gon is qui-Gone at this point and returns as a semi-force ghost, having discovered the secret in his years of study as a Jedi Knight at most, he might have a force upgrade card called "Qui-gon's Guidance" or something, but we will not have him appear in the game as a fighting figure. Unless the Mouse makes a clone of him as a surprise for season 7. The Clone Wars Tv show was pretty much all I watched while I was a child, so "based on name recognition" alone Rex, and the other Clones will ring a louder bell than Qui-gon, simply because I know more about him than I know about the Jedi Knight. There's next to know chance he'll be there, I'm sorry friend.

-Arctic

I'm glad you have insight on the devs plans thank you

37 minutes ago, TheHoosh said:

I'm glad you have insight on the devs plans thank you

You are claiming a similar insight by stating Darth Maul will be included in the CIS and that "Clone Wars" actually means "prequels."

Besides, it's not solely up to the devs, everything they do has to be approved by Disney.

21 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

You are claiming a similar insight by stating Darth Maul will be included in the CIS and that "Clone Wars" actually means "prequels."

Besides, it's not solely up to the devs, everything they do has to be approved by Disney.

A Maul Operative is, for that very reason, almost certainly going to be a thing. Just like Boba and Bossk. They are not imperials, and are their presence alongside Imperial troops actually means something has gone far wrong.

But the mouse has already shown us they will deploy Maul - Rebels, the end of Solo (is that still a spoiler?). Maul will be in legion. Likely an operative. Probably for CIS, if only because he fights against Kenobi in the movies and rebels.

I know, for storylines in our games that makes little sense, but then so does The Senate taking personal command of a Stormtrooper platoon.

4 minutes ago, Jedirev said:

A Maul Operative is, for that very reason, almost certainly going to be a thing. Just like Boba and Bossk. They are not imperials, and are their presence alongside Imperial troops actually means something has gone far wrong.

But the mouse has already shown us they will deploy Maul - Rebels, the end of Solo (is that still a spoiler?). Maul will be in legion. Likely an operative. Probably for CIS, if only because he fights against Kenobi in the movies and rebels.

I know, for storylines in our games that makes little sense, but then so does The Senate taking personal command of a Stormtrooper platoon.

As I and others have said, Maul fights against the CIS in the Clone Wars cartoon. He has a canon role on the Clone Wars, and that doesn't involve working with the CIS. The bounty hunters on the other hand are shown working FOR the Empire. He only ever happens to be on Naboo at the same time as the Trade Federation, a group that eventually joins the CIS.

Maul never works with the CIS, he's head of his own criminal faction during that time (after becoming slightly less insane and getting better prosthetic legs), which is WHY he's included in Solo the way he was. Rebels inclusion gave closure to his story, and is moot for the discussion of his inclusion in Legion as part of CIS.

8 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

As I and others have said, Maul fights against the CIS in the Clone Wars cartoon. He has a canon role on the Clone Wars, and that doesn't involve working with the CIS. The bounty hunters on the other hand are shown working FOR the Empire. He only ever happens to be on Naboo at the same time as the Trade Federation, a group that eventually joins the CIS.

Maul never works with the CIS, he's head of his own criminal faction during that time (after becoming slightly less insane and getting better prosthetic legs), which is WHY he's included in Solo the way he was. Rebels inclusion gave closure to his story, and is moot for the discussion of his inclusion in Legion as part of CIS.

I don't disagree. But... He's not going to be the same faction as Kenobi. For lots of reasons, he's still a clone wars character. He's going to be CIS.

It makes as little sense as The Senate commanding a platoon of Stormtroopers.

Just now, Jedirev said:

I don't disagree. But... He's not going to be the same faction as Kenobi. For lots of reasons, he's still a clone wars character. He's going to be CIS.

It makes as little sense as The Senate commanding a platoon of Stormtroopers.

I never said Maul should be part of the Republic either.

You are assuming that FFG won't release another new faction. Maul makes perfect canon sense in a NEW faction consisting of criminals. Maul also shouldn't be included in the same faction as Dooku, for a similar reason.

So I ask again, did they say "Maul will be included" or "Maul will be included in a current army?" These are different statements.

He'll be with the CIS... he's with the CIS in X-wing and they'll need more highly recognizable character figures for them in Legion (the GAR has enough high profile characters to build a platoon out of).

1 minute ago, Caimheul1313 said:

I never said Maul should be part of the Republic either.

You are assuming that FFG won't release another new faction. Maul makes perfect canon sense in a NEW faction consisting of criminals. Maul also shouldn't be included in the same faction as Dooku, for a similar reason.

So I ask again, did they say "Maul will be included" or "Maul will be included in a current army?" These are different statements.

I'm not discounting a future Scum faction. But it's a longish way off, (compared to Clone Wars which was hinted at very far in advance).

When it comes, both Boba and Bossk will fit there. I would anticipate Maul fitting there too.

What I'm really saying is that Maul is too much of an iconic character to pass up if you are putting Clone Wars era armies into a production that is anywhere near The Mouse's creative influence.

19 minutes ago, GreatMazinkaiser said:

He'll be with the CIS... he's with the CIS in X-wing and they'll need more highly recognizable character figures for them in Legion (the GAR has enough high profile characters to build a platoon out of).

So is O-66 which has more to do with including the only 3 known pilots of that ship type than anything else. And Maul doesn't have that ship after Naboo anyway, so it wouldn't make sense to make him a Scum pilot in that ship. As an infantry figure it's a different kettle of fish, he spends more time as part of the Shadow Collective than anything else in films at least (I'm uncertain about any canon books).

Unless a timeline was given for when Maul would be included, you may be reading to much into the comment that he would be included.

18 minutes ago, Jedirev said:

I'm not discounting a future Scum faction. But it's a longish way off, (compared to Clone Wars which was hinted at very far in advance).

When it comes, both Boba and Bossk will fit there. I would anticipate Maul fitting there too.

What I'm really saying is that Maul is too much of an iconic character to pass up if you are putting Clone Wars era armies into a production that is anywhere near The Mouse's creative influence.

Shadow Collective IS a Clone Wars era criminal faction.

CIS has plenty of Operative options already, with name recognition, even if only from the cartoon: Cad Bane, operative and Commander versions of Ventress, and Savage Opress come to mind, which are as many Operatives as either of the GCW factions include.

I consider Episode 1 to be so tied to the clone wars that including any characters from Episode 1 makes a lot of sense to me. Similar to a lot of wars where you have an initial battle that is really a skirmish, everyone politically says "It's ON!!!" and then later on you have the true formation of full armies, war efforts etc. Heck the entire event was orchestrated by the man who seized power in that movie.

I dunno, timelines are obviously shifty when we can have Young Obi throwdown with Commander Vader on the field, or Operative Luke. X-Wing has taken a very broad approach to "Clone Wars" factions to basically mean Prequel era. Separatists can field Maul in the Scimitar, and Republic can run both Young Ani in a N-1 or older Ani in a Jedi fighter (but not at the same time!). And, like it or not, the core Sep forces were shown first in Phantom Menace, which means if you want to do some iconic Phantom Menace shots, I don't think it's out of place to have a "young Maul" as a more inexperienced Sith Apprentice show up to counterpoint Dooku or a future Asajj ventress, and it's not any weirder than anything else in the game I've pointed out, like having Vader fight himself or whatever. That still leaves Shadow Collective Maul as a potential Scum commander or whatever if they do that (not that Scum also isn't going to be a timeline clusterkriff, just like it is in X-Wing. Sabine and Asajj as pilots on the same ship? Especially when Sabine is like 12 when she was a bounty hunter or something.). Does this mean maybe you can stick Dooku and Maul on the same team? Sure, but also I can have Jyn and Jedi Knight Luke on the same team (soon anyway), or team Krennic up with ESB bounty hunters.

Qui-gon I'm not as sure about. He is an iconic character, and he does do some fighting, but it is a bit hard to think of him in even an operative role, that's not really his style, but who knows. This is about a lot of these iconic unit matchups. I bet they'll lock down the "sub-factions" thing and do a batch of Gungan releases too as a Republic theme, so you can recreate a iconic ground battle.

@UnitOmega I'm not certain we should use X-Wing as an indicator for Legion, including a card is a bit different than a specific model, and some iconic ships only have a couple of canon pilots, whereas Legion we have many characters that can fill similar roles. Not including Maul as a pilot for that ship is a bit different from including him as an operative for a faction he never directly works with or for.

Your timeline "issue" has more to do with the same "problem" as allowing for the mirror match. That's a little different from including a character with a given faction because he happens to be in the same film, and shares a common enemy.

As far as I can recall, Darth Maul doesn't fight alongside droids at any point in the film, he has a separate engagement with a Jedi Master and Padawan on a planet that the Trade Federation is currently blockading, while the planet inhabitants are trying to remove said blockade. So he doesn't "have" to be included to provide a complete picture of that army. He wasn't even hired by the Trade Federation, unlike the bounty hunters, instead his orders came from Palpatine.

Mostly I'm trying to point out that stating "the designers said Maul will be in the game so he has to be in CIS" isn't the only option. He may not be, especially as there is still an option for him to be a Commander of a future faction, making their statement true, without including him in CIS. Additionally, he fills a similar/the same role as Savage Opress, a character which makes a little more sense to include in CIS as an operative.

For the most part I agree with your choices. I share your strong feelings on no jedi squads or larger vehicles in the game in particular. There's so many named jedi characters to choose from, why turn jedi into a massed unit that will make jedi look less elite than they should be. On large vehicles, I really enjoy the current scale of legion, how it feels like a mid-size skirmish, compared to 40k where you can bring a massive knight titan to pretty much any size game. Lots of very cool big vehicles in star wars, can't deny that, but keep the scale and balance where it is. Loads to focus on just keeping vehicles at the scale of AT-STs and smaller.

Also I had never thought of clone medics, but that's pretty cool, and a nice way to diversify a choice every faction should have, but doesn't need to be a droid for everyone.

56 minutes ago, Jedirev said:

It makes as little sense as The Senate commanding a platoon of Stormtroopers.

You really can't conceive of a story in which the Emperor has to get more hands on involved in a fight than normal?

Not even in a "happens to be at a place that the rebels attacked" or "he escaped a star destroyer that got wrecked in a hyperdrive anomaly" sort of way?

Yes, he has people who have people who have people who have people who kill people; but that's just a complete lack of imagination.

It's not like we've ever seen the super important leader involved in direct combat in Air Force 1, White House Down, Independence Day, Olympus has Fallen, 2/3 movies with Padme, Klingons in Star Trek, John Sheridan/Delenn in Babylon 5, Most of the Nobility in the Battletech Universe, Lex Luthor, Mad MAx: Fury Road, Alexander the Great, a bunch of Roman Emperors....

I think the main difficulty of including Palatine in the Clone Wars is which side would he be on? He's the puppet master of the whole conflict, it doesn't really make sense to put him on the battlefield on either side. I agree that you can make up scenarios in the Galactic Civil War, but it's clear what side he's on there so that's not hard. Clone Wars, he's best left in the background.

Opps double post.

3 hours ago, Zrob314 said:

You really can't conceive of a story in which the Emperor has to get more hands on involved in a fight than normal?

No shortage of imagination at all! My point is that it takes more or less the same imagination to put Maul in an army with CIS.