There are countless incidents in movies and other media of the hero (or villain, or any other character in the thing) coming up behind unaware opponents and garroting, stabbing, choking out, or enacting other means of violence upon them.

This is my proposal for how to handle it, but I'm looking for advice and suggestions as I've waffled considerably on this.

Make an opposed Stealth vs. Vigilance check, success means you succeed in sneaking up on them, Threat means that the difficulty of your check is increased or that other special effects are cancelled out (auto crit, ignore armor, etc.)
Attack checks: Stabbing someone is Simple difficulty and, at GM discretion, ignores soak from armor (as you can slip it in between the plates in a stormtroopers armor) and automatically inflicts a Critical Injury (outright killing minions) possibly with a set result, such as Bleeding Out (if you stab someone in the neck)
Choking someone out requires an opposed Brawl check with a Boost (cancelled out by Threat, increased by Advantage) and takes rounds equal to the targets Brawn divided by 2 (rounded up). On the targets turn, they may attempt an opposed Brawl check with 1-2 Setback to escape the choke-hold. A character being choked out may not speak (all of the above would have to be modified for some species).
Knocking someone out (blunt force trauma) would simply be a Simple check as it doesn't have the same advantages as something like a knife.
Garroting someone would require an Opposed Melee vs. Brawl check and would be handled pretty much the same as choking someone out, except that it would increase the difficulty of the escape attempt once.

I'm sure this has come up before...

...we just flipped a Destiny point to get on with the main part of the adventure.... rolling opposing stats etc and getting a failure, God forbid a Despair, was not an option we wanted to consider as players tbh.

The reason for this is partly allowing NPCs to get the drop on the players* or the players to get the drop on major NPCs, not just PCs on Minions. A Despair in that circumstance would be tremendously good fun though...

*care would need to be taken to avoid abusing the Bleeding Out crit (though it gives the "you suddenly feel the kiss of cold steel and realize that you have a knife at your throat" a whole lot more gravitas as the player realizes that his WT of 32 won't save him now)

I tend to make any attack on a totally unaware enemy to be an Auto Crit, just by making the attack - provided the Attack is at Engaged Range.

The Garrote from Cyphers and Masks is pretty good for silent takedowns. You manage to hit someone with a brawl attack using that one and then they're suffocating until they can break free, which means winning a Brawl vs Brawl test with setback dice added for each turn they have been suffocating. Otherwise the Sap Gloves are pretty good for it, although broken in the hands of a brawler. At +2 damage and concussive they can make sure the target never gets any actions.

If it isn't combat, I treat it depending on the target. Minons and rivals I will probably allow a brawn/melee check to silently incapacitate an opponent without further expansion; after all we don't want to run numbers we just want to know whether it's successful or not. Nemesis's (which are rarier and almost certainly would never "just be on guard duty") I would probably allow to be the surprise round or inflict one automatic critical modified by the attribute of the weapon but unless it's an assassination type situation, it would probably imitate combat. All these fancy tools for the sole purpose of knocking someone out isn't at all useful, if you have a weapon or a strong arm and you succeed against a check I specify, your character is able to spend one action to incapacity them, no questions asked.

The only questions I would generally ask is "what are you using?" (to determine whether it's lethal or non-lethal) and what is your method? To Garrote someone I might ask for a brawn vs resistance check, or whatever I deem appropriate for that style of takedown. Also, I would definitely be applying morality within these situations, a force sensitive murdering people depending on whom the target is would be potentally taking on conflict if they explore killing before any other type of distraction.

Against players? I would just make an attack roll that will inflict one automatic critical regardless of whether they soak it or not, ignoring soak generated by armour. They were taken by surprise and grievously wounded, but they are of more hardy stock then the average minion and might be able to fight off the attempt on their life. Likewise with strain I would probably do the same minus the crit, but again ignoring any soak benefits from armour. Why? Purely from shock value. I want the players to immediately feel out of their comfort zone when they are completely blind sided and to make them feel in danger, no matter how high their natural soak is. One of the things I find is, especially with heavy combat PC's is that they become very comfortable in their values really quickly, so subtly changing the status quo for those fringe situations is bound to get a nice response.

14 hours ago, LordBritish said:

If it isn't combat, I treat it depending on the target. Minons and rivals I will probably allow a brawn/melee check to silently incapacitate an opponent without further expansion; after all we don't want to run numbers we just want to know whether it's successful or not. Nemesis's (which are rarier and almost certainly would never "just be on guard duty") I would probably allow to be the surprise round or inflict one automatic critical modified by the attribute of the weapon but unless it's an assassination type situation, it would probably imitate combat. All these fancy tools for the sole purpose of knocking someone out isn't at all useful, if you have a weapon or a strong arm and you succeed against a check I specify, your character is able to spend one action to incapacity them, no questions asked.

The only questions I would generally ask is "what are you using?" (to determine whether it's lethal or non-lethal) and what is your method? To Garrote someone I might ask for a brawn vs resistance check, or whatever I deem appropriate for that style of takedown. Also, I would definitely be applying morality within these situations, a force sensitive murdering people depending on whom the target is would be potentally taking on conflict if they explore killing before any other type of distraction.

Against players? I would just make an attack roll that will inflict one automatic critical regardless of whether they soak it or not, ignoring soak generated by armour. They were taken by surprise and grievously wounded, but they are of more hardy stock then the average minion and might be able to fight off the attempt on their life. Likewise with strain I would probably do the same minus the crit, but again ignoring any soak benefits from armour. Why? Purely from shock value. I want the players to immediately feel out of their comfort zone when they are completely blind sided and to make them feel in danger, no matter how high their natural soak is. One of the things I find is, especially with heavy combat PC's is that they become very comfortable in their values really quickly, so subtly changing the status quo for those fringe situations is bound to get a nice response.

I feel like you want to punish them for being tanky.

Have you ever seena movie scene, where someone crashes a chair on the head of a huge person, but that doesn't even flinch, he is so buffed.

Soak (your armour and muscle) doesn't disappear just because you are not paying attention.

On 10/16/2019 at 1:05 PM, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Attack checks: Stabbing someone is Simple difficulty and, at GM discretion, ignores soak from armor (as you can slip it in between the plates in a stormtroopers armor) and automatically inflicts a Critical Injury (outright killing minions) possibly with a set result, such as Bleeding Out (if you stab someone in the neck)

I generally like your thoughts on how to handle it. I'm not sure I'd give a set crit though, and maybe not even remove Soak. Instead, let the PC decide how to use their Advantages, which could be applied to give the attack Pierce, and/or Vicious equal to Advantages spent. A Triumph might be worth 5A in that instance, spent as the PC sees fit. The PC could apply advantages generated either on both the Stealth roll and the surprise attack roll, possibly pooled. If they spend enough on Vicious it makes a Bleeding Out result more likely. This also rewards those with a high yellow dice pool, and Talents like Lethal Blows.

A crit takes out a Minion automatically, so this means mooks don't get to call out or act in any way, and if it's a Simple check it's an auto-kill *every time*. If you want that kind of high-fantasy that's great, but it might get tiresome. Any competent PCs will always be able to sneak up to a mook and take them out. So I'd remove the auto-crit--one can still be generated via Advantages, though that's less Pierce/Vicious--and/or make the difficulty Easy (which still leaves room for DP flips, etc).

With Rivals there's a good chance the damage and/or crit won't take them down outright unless the PC is extremely capable, which is as it should be IMHO.

Nemeses should have plenty of resources to avoid an auto-kill, not least of which is ranks in Adversary. Getting the drop on a Nemesis should be what the PCs need just to even the odds.

4 hours ago, whafrog said:

A crit takes out a Minion automatically, so this means mooks don't get to call out or act in any way, and if it's a Simple check it's an auto-kill *every time*. If you want that kind of high-fantasy that's great, but it might get tiresome. Any competent PCs will always be able to sneak up to a mook and take them out. So I'd remove the auto-crit--one can still be generated via Advantages, though that's less Pierce/Vicious--and/or make the difficulty Easy (which still leaves room for DP flips, etc).

Would any of this be a problem? You cannot strike from Stealth on an entire group, so its lone guards, which is you seen in the movie where we see guards slowly disappearing and be dragged away by the Ninjas. Once they try that in a room a fight breaks out. It's narrative-ly cool that the players can drop Minions from stealth without much chance of failure, of course there is a chance they fail the Easy Check. If there is a group of 3 suddenly its a real problem, as one auto Crit is one, your damage is likely a second, but you need to roll well for that third guy.

5 hours ago, Rimsen said:

I feel like you want to punish them for being tanky.

Have you ever seena movie scene, where someone crashes a chair on the head of a huge person, but that doesn't even flinch, he is so buffed.

Soak (your armour and muscle) doesn't disappear just because you are not paying attention.

On the contrary, I have no desire to punish my friends but I do love to shock them now and again, change the parameters slightly to reflect the situation they are in. After all if they can take down a character without rolling to damage wounds the equal response would be for a trained assassin to do the same to the players. That strikes me as unfair, so I would prefer to raise the stakes in a more interesting way.

For example, to quote a real life example on Soak, plate armour in the late medevil periods were effectively nigh on impenetrable to most conventional attacks, they could be pelted at with arrows or slashed at with swords, and even battering them with a mace only really served the purpose of caving the plates in so that mobility would be hindered, unless you were able to hit them on the head to incapacitate them. The most effective weapon in this situation, somewhat ironically was the dagger in that if the knight was grappled you could direct that point towards the armours few vulnerabilities, armpit, in gaps in the visor, grorn. That was in an area where personal protection was at it's highest point for the select few that could afford, even then there was ways of completely bypassing it's protection. This was why the sword, a terrible battlefield weapon against any kind of serious protection, excelled in being half sworded to direct it's tip against those areas. Stands to reason that in eras where protection was often some kind of plastic, the same would be possible here. The sneak attack targets the person directly, not the armour they are wearing which is why I presume DnD uses sneak attack dice; personally it would probably be a bit more historically accurate to ignore AC, but then it wouldn't be as effective or dramatic! Gahahaha

That being said; it is a technique that should be used exceedingly sparingly as after I don't imagine the average thug or stormtrooper would do anything like this. This kind of trick I would save for the really unsavoury characters, like the emperor's hand or an otherwise archetypical assassin who would go straight for the narrative jugular. The intent is to create a real sense of danger that gets the immediate attention of the table following a failed perception/vigilance check under a very exact situation, not a bread and butter methodogy for a gotcha.

3 hours ago, Spartancfos said:

Would any of this be a problem? You cannot strike from Stealth on an entire group, so its lone guards, which is you seen in the movie where we see guards slowly disappearing and be dragged away by the Ninjas.

Sure, and the characters doing those things aren't fresh out of boot camp. I would have a problem with it, because any PC after chargen could do it. I prefer to have the PCs earn those abilities, and I know my players do too. There ought to be some risk, or there's no point rolling the dice, and it's basically improv night.

If you like it, go for it. But keep in mind Han Solo couldn't do it, regardless of the boatload of XP he'd have had in other areas.

3 hours ago, LordBritish said:

On the contrary, I have no desire to punish my friends but I do love to shock them now and again, change the parameters slightly to reflect the situation they are in. After all if they can take down a character without rolling to damage wounds the equal response would be for a trained assassin to do the same to the players. That strikes me as unfair, so I would prefer to raise the stakes in a more interesting way.

For example, to quote a real life example on Soak, plate armour in the late medevil periods were effectively nigh on impenetrable to most conventional attacks, they could be pelted at with arrows or slashed at with swords, and even battering them with a mace only really served the purpose of caving the plates in so that mobility would be hindered, unless you were able to hit them on the head to incapacitate them. The most effective weapon in this situation, somewhat ironically was the dagger in that if the knight was grappled you could direct that point towards the armours few vulnerabilities, armpit, in gaps in the visor, grorn. That was in an area where personal protection was at it's highest point for the select few that could afford, even then there was ways of completely bypassing it's protection. This was why the sword, a terrible battlefield weapon against any kind of serious protection, excelled in being half sworded to direct it's tip against those areas. Stands to reason that in eras where protection was often some kind of plastic, the same would be possible here. The sneak attack targets the person directly, not the armour they are wearing which is why I presume DnD uses sneak attack dice; personally it would probably be a bit more historically accurate to ignore AC, but then it wouldn't be as effective or dramatic! Gahahaha

That being said; it is a technique that should be used exceedingly sparingly as after I don't imagine the average thug or stormtrooper would do anything like this. This kind of trick I would save for the really unsavoury characters, like the emperor's hand or an otherwise archetypical assassin who would go straight for the narrative jugular. The intent is to create a real sense of danger that gets the immediate attention of the table following a failed perception/vigilance check under a very exact situation, not a bread and butter methodogy for a gotcha.

Well, I want to give them challenge, but I DO treat them unfair by this point, well, because they are the heroes. You wouldn't let them drop the Nemesis with any one roll either. I don't compare PCs to minions and rivals.

I get your analogy, and for example let the assassin ignore the enemies armor doing an aimed attack (for the soft spot). Also I would give them proper weapon: pierce, vicious. However I feel it can be done within the system.

13 minutes ago, whafrog said:

Sure, and the characters doing those things aren't fresh out of boot camp. I would have a problem with it, because any PC after chargen could do it. I prefer to have the PCs earn those abilities, and I know my players do too. There ought to be some risk, or there's no point rolling the dice, and it's basically improv night.

If you like it, go for it. But keep in mind Han Solo couldn't do it, regardless of the boatload of XP he'd have had in other areas.

He literally does. In Return of the Jedi we see several Imperials taken out during the Bunker attack. Now perhaps that's part of the Emperors plan, or as a result of Han putting points in Stealth to get these takedowns.

The challenge is basically the same as a Combat check, in that you now need to pass the Stealth Vs Vigilance Check, to kill one Minion - Which is also basically the outcome of a Combat Check.

This isn't something the player can do from Boot Camp, its something a character with some XP can do. In this system any character can do any one thing well after Char-Gen, or perhaps be pretty good at two.

34 minutes ago, Spartancfos said:

He literally does.

We are thinking of different points in the story. I was thinking of him trying to sneak up on the scout "real quiet-like". The situation had to be salvaged by others. The bunker attack is nothing like what the OP described.

Anyway, not going to argue about it further, you do you.

@whafrog I think you (and possibly a couple others) misunderstood my point as regards Soak, you only ignore soak from armor . The character's natural soak (Brawn+Implants+Enduring) is still applied. This represents the blade slipping into the cracks of the armor. Another thing that should probably be applied is Defense from armor. For example, Armored Clothing can turn a blade, and it isn't always known as to were the chinks in the armor might be. That also makes a good argument for "concealed" armor to not have its soak ignored (unless you are going for an exposed area like the neck).

If you are trying to sneak up on a stormtrooper, bear in mind that that would require a Hard Stealth check, possibly upgraded if there is more than just one. If you have a pretty average/early game rebel fighter, 3 Agility, maybe at most 1 rank in Stealth, you probably won't succeed with no Threat. Either way, you don't get off scot free.