I don't think there are too many pilots that make outstanding Hunters with their native ability. I'm OK with that, though. It could be quite brutal if everyone had someone that was a "must take" Hunter.

Gavin and Maarek are the two that come to mind.

I think it will need to be either special weapons (Proton Torpedoes or Autoblaster Cannons) or blind luck that will do it. Also, higher Init requirements means chances of shields still being up is good. They regenerate each round. It seems like it is not meant to be too powerful, and that is good.

On 10/14/2019 at 4:51 PM, Parakitor said:

One thing I've seen brought up over again is combining Dreadnought Hunter with Wing Leader. But the more I look at it, I'm convinced that few, if any, ships will have two command slots, so they probably won't combo. But I guess we won't know for sure until Epic Battles is released.

I don't think anyone will have 2 Command slots. It would be too much if Maarek Stele could be a Wing Leader and Dreadnought Hunter. Same for Gavin. I don't think it's meant to be too powerful. I'm OK with that.

13 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

I don't think anyone will have 2 Command slots. It would be too much if Maarek Stele could be a Wing Leader and Dreadnought Hunter. Same for Gavin. I don't think it's meant to be too powerful. I'm OK with that.

I don't agree with that, my concern is if they can't be wing leaders then they will get focused down to easily. Without the wingmates to pull damage from him someone like Maarek will go down very quickly under concentrated fire. On a side note I finally came up with something for Scum, Y-wing with Torps and Greedo gunner can push 2 crits in one turn.

10 minutes ago, AegisAngel said:

I don't agree with that, my concern is if they can't be wing leaders then they will get focused down to easily. Without the wingmates to pull damage from him someone like Maarek will go down very quickly under concentrated fire. On a side note I finally came up with something for Scum, Y-wing with Torps and Greedo gunner can push 2 crits in one turn.

That's the balance.

So...you think ships will be able to have 2 Command slots? I guess we will see in a little bit.

I don't see how that is balanced. Take the "Escalated Tension" scenario they pre-viewd for example. There is 500 points of ships per side. How is a single ship supposed to get through 300-350 points (I'm estimating 150-200 points spent on something like a CR90) of ships to make an attack run on the enemy huge ship? All it would probably take is 1 turn from an enemy wing of let's say 3 T-65s to kill. With the amount of firepower per side single ships are going to die so fast it's not even funny.

31 minutes ago, AegisAngel said:

I don't see how that is balanced. Take the "Escalated Tension" scenario they pre-viewd for example. There is 500 points of ships per side. How is a single ship supposed to get through 300-350 points (I'm estimating 150-200 points spent on something like a CR90) of ships to make an attack run on the enemy huge ship? All it would probably take is 1 turn from an enemy wing of let's say 3 T-65s to kill. With the amount of firepower per side single ships are going to die so fast it's not even funny.

Have you played 500 pt games? It's rarely one side charging straight at the other. That is especially true when you have 3x6 and multiple objectives. People tend to break up their forces to go after specific objectives. This allows nuance and play where you can outmaneuver your opponent.

I also am under the impression that you can only have so many Wings in your list, as well. I'm not sure if it is a limitation of the rules, types of ships, or just that you will only have so many Wing Leader cards. I don't think everything is going to be able to be in a wing, so you will see loose ships flying around more often than not.

Counterpoint, I don't see it being fair that you can put Maarek Stele in a wing of X1's where he can shrug off all the hits to basically solo a ship on his own. Once you get a few crits on a huge ship, it will be going down fast.

52 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

I also am under the impression that you can only have so many Wings in your list, as well. I'm not sure if it is a limitation of the rules, types of ships, or just that you will only have so many Wing Leader cards. I don't think everything is going to be able to be in a wing, so you will see loose ships flying around more often than not.

I just double checked, the Veteran Wing Leader card is not limited so I assume you can take as many of them as you have cards. The Agent of the Empire is limited to one however.

52 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

Counterpoint, I don't see it being fair that you can put Maarek Stele in a wing of X1's where he can shrug off all the hits to basically solo a ship on his own. Once you get a few crits on a huge ship, it will be going down fast.

I'll give you that, but think that's a little exaggerated. With Regening shields Marrek would never get a crit in unless it was range 1 and he got a perfect roll (2 hits and 2 crits, one would be blocked by reinforce, 2 would go into the regened shields, and the last crit would get through) even if he's in a wing because there is a good chance he's shooting before his wing mates. It's going to have to be a team effort to bring down a huge ship. You are right however I don't have any experience with 1.0 epic (wish I did, the sexiness of the raider model is what caught my eye and got me into X-wing in the first place, it was the first model I bought). I started playing in the early days of 2.0.

I think Thane Kyrell is being overlooked. His ability allows him to use a left over focus result, and pick any crit to exploit, which means he can pick one that can apply in the arc of the huge ship he is in. While that doesn’t combo with that card itself. He is I5, and only 48 (something like that) points or 49 with marksmanship. He is just overall a good crit factory, one who can pick which one has the greatest effect at that moment in time.

Rebels have the perfect anti-Dreadnaught Hunter weapon in Selfless. Evaan in particular seems the best fit for this because she can give the CR-90s an extra green die, is pretty cheap and has plenty of health to sink those crits into. Selfless also really messes with Maarek's ability, since his ability won't apply to the Selfless ship because they aren't the defender.

Scum I think will be fine with Dreadnaught Hunter options.

Graz and Talonbane can try to get in the blind spots of huge ships and chew them up with extra attack dice, Viktor can discourage shooting him in the first place especially with a Stealth Device or Cloaking Device (or Range 3, or obstacles, or friendly Tactical Scramblers ahead of him, etc.), Xizor can use his ability as a "pseudo-Wing" effect and keep himself alive at the expense of something disposable like a Y-Wing generic or a Z-95, N'dru with a permanent cloak can be a cheap option to dive past the enemy and divert enemy resources to stop him, and Kavil and Drea can double tap with Marksmanship+VTG+Dorsal for double crits. Guri and the Fangs don't have direct synergy with Dreadnaught Hunter (no double tap, extra dice rolls for more chance of crits or abilities to extend their lifespan in a furball), but are still strong aces that could give a huge ship a lot of trouble if they survive the initial engagements.

...Dreadnaught Hunter Shuttle Lando also might not be a horrible idea either. Add Marksmanship + Tactical Officer, hang back at first to feed coordinates and use his rerolls to keep him alive, then have him contribute mid-late game by annoying huge ships with crits once the shields are down.

On 10/21/2019 at 12:31 PM, Enigami said:

Scum I think will be fine with Dreadnaught Hunter options.

Graz and Talonbane can try to get in the blind spots of huge ships and chew them up with extra attack dice, Viktor can discourage shooting him in the first place especially with a Stealth Device or Cloaking Device (or Range 3, or obstacles, or friendly Tactical Scramblers ahead of him, etc.), Xizor can use his ability as a "pseudo-Wing" effect and keep himself alive at the expense of something disposable like a Y-Wing generic or a Z-95, N'dru with a permanent cloak can be a cheap option to dive past the enemy and divert enemy resources to stop him, and Kavil and Drea can double tap with Marksmanship+VTG+Dorsal for double crits. Guri and the Fangs don't have direct synergy with Dreadnaught Hunter (no double tap, extra dice rolls for more chance of crits or abilities to extend their lifespan in a furball), but are still strong aces that could give a huge ship a lot of trouble if they survive the initial engagements.

...Dreadnaught Hunter Shuttle Lando also might not be a horrible idea either. Add Marksmanship + Tactical Officer, hang back at first to feed coordinates and use his rerolls to keep him alive, then have him contribute mid-late game by annoying huge ships with crits once the shields are down.

This list's focus on named pilots is painful, especially given how large Epic games involving Huge ships are going to likely be. Leaning that heavily on pilots that are that expensive to start with (and yes, I know S&V i4+ small base with talent slot total # of options that don't involve a limited pilot sucks ***, Skull Squaddies only iirc) is just screaming for them to get nuked before they can contribute at all or forcing their player to hold them back till the Huge ships are really low on shields effectively removing them from the fight and drastically weakening the list on the table. The other kicker is that every Huge ship regens shields for free every round and you will usually want your Dreadnaught Hunter shooting after the shields are down, not something S&V will have a good chance at doing consistently without crippling their squad size thanks to the I4+ req on the upgrade...

Whilst Maarek is undoubtedly the first choice for Empire, I feel like Rexler is getting somewhat overlooked. The defender is such a good chassis, and the points increase for epic means we could get more than 2 in a game for once. Can defenders fly in wings? that seems like a beefy option right there, albeit very expensive.

20 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

This list's focus on named pilots is painful, especially given how large Epic games involving Huge ships are going to likely be. Leaning that heavily on pilots that are that expensive to start with (and yes, I know S&V i4+ small base with talent slot total # of options that don't involve a limited pilot sucks ***, Skull Squaddies only iirc) is just screaming for them to get nuked before they can contribute at all or forcing their player to hold them back till the Huge ships are really low on shields effectively removing them from the fight and drastically weakening the list on the table. The other kicker is that every Huge ship regens shields for free every round and you will usually want your Dreadnaught Hunter shooting after the shields are down, not something S&V will have a good chance at doing consistently without crippling their squad size thanks to the I4+ req on the upgrade...

I don't know what you're talking about. Firstly, I never posted a list. I posted options for Dreadnaught Hunters, which you can only take 2 of.

I don't get your fixation on generic I4s. The only Rebel I4 generic is the Rogue Squadron Escort, and you can even get Braylen for less than what it costs for one. First Order Test Pilot, the only generic I4 for First Order? SFG Quickdraw is 3 points cheaper. Every faction except Imperials are similarly very limited in generic I4 options, and Republic doesn't even have access to them! Imperials look to have the only strong I4 generics, between Sigma Phantoms doing Phantom things and Onyx squadrons maybe living long enough with Full Throttle + 3/3/4 statline to make up for just how expensive they are.

And again, for S&V Hunter options:

Viktor's only 45 points with Marksmanship and has a pilot ability that can, even naked, punish shooting at him. Pretty easy to toss Dreadnaught Hunter on him and maybe a Stealth Device if you really wanted to discourage shots at him early on. He'd be cheaper than a Skull Squadron too.

Assuming you can't have Hunter + Wing Leader at the same time, Xizor is one of the few Hunter capable ships in the game that could hold it out till late game while engaging the enemy head on. Just needs something cheap and preferably fat nearby to dump damage into, like a Y-Wing or YT-1300. Despite being WAY too overpriced compared to the Black Sun Assassin, he's only 4 points more than Skull Squadron.

Kavil's one of the very few ships in the game that can double tap with Marksman+Dreadnaught Hunter. If double tap crits into Huge Ships are good, Kavil will be good. Drea can technically do it too, but she's notably more expensive than the other options and her ability wants the turret facing to the side instead of forward.

Zuvio can set up a permanent cloak mostly by himself and contribute directly to a fight with Proximity/Cluser Mines + Tractor Array while having 4 green dice to blunt attacks with. Variance prone, but either the enemy spends more shots into a dodgy cloaked ship, or Zuvio can decloak when shields are down to start sinking crits into the enemy huge ship.

Serissu is only 40 points, has her rerolls for defense, and already likes Marksmanship for Autoblasters.

If you want cheap Hunters, you've got N'Dru, Bossk, and Lando. Bossk already wants Marksmanship anyway, and N'Dru could take Hunter and come at a flank, either drawing arcs away from the rest of your fleet or letting him punch above his weight. The neat thing with Lando is that he can afford to hold to the rear of a furball and still contribute, since the Escape Shuttle is primarily a support ship anyway, and will probably be close enough to the huge ship to line up the bullseye and push crits once the shields go down.

So: S&V has Hunter options that can joust the enemy head on (Viktor any way to get more green dice, Xizor with any escorts, maybe Fangs if they can get Concordia Faceoff to activate against most incoming shots), a cheap support ship that can viably keep out of the thick of things and still contribute (Lando), double tappers (Kavil & Drea), aces (Fangs, Kihraxzes and Vipers), jank (Zuvio), defensive reroll mini-ace/support (Serissu), and throw-away cheap ships (N'Dru & Bossk) not to mention a rather nice relatively inexpensive meatshield to sit behind for engagement to keep your Hunters alive (Reinforced TacScrambler Slavers)

S&V has a rather nice selection of Hunters that I can see, and doesn't really look like they cost any more than what other factions have to pay for their own Hunters. If Dreadnaught Hunter isn't a viable card for S&V, I'm doubtful it would be viable for ANY faction.

2 minutes ago, Enigami said:

Firstly, I never posted a list

Not squad list, list of pilots. Graz, Talonbane, Hel, Xizor, Kavil, Drea, N'Dru and Lando. You did so again in your reply.

6 minutes ago, Enigami said:

I don't get your fixation on generic I4s.

Its the difference between stacking a single pilot with costly upgrades painting a large bullseye on them and having a more balanced squad with more than 1 or 2 threats for the opponent to think about.

10 minutes ago, Enigami said:

Viktor's only 45 points with Marksmanship and has a pilot ability that can, even naked, punish shooting at him. Pretty easy to toss Dreadnaught Hunter on him and maybe a Stealth Device if you really wanted to discourage shots at him early on. He'd be cheaper than a Skull Squadron too.

Nope. Unless you're talking without SD.

Viktor Hel — Kihraxz Fighter44

Marksmanship1

Stealth Device6

Ship Total: 51

Half Points: 26 Threshold: 3

Skull Squadron Pilot — Fang Fighter50

Ship Total: 50

Half Points: 25 Threshold: 2

31 minutes ago, Enigami said:

So: S&V has Hunter options that can 1. joust the enemy head on (Viktor any way to get more green dice, Xizor with any escorts, maybe Fangs if they can get Concordia Faceoff to activate against most incoming shots), 2. a cheap support ship that can viably keep out of the thick of things and still contribute (Lando), 3. double tappers (Kavil & Drea), 4. aces (Fangs, Kihraxzes and Vipers), 5. jank (Zuvio), 6. defensive reroll mini-ace/support (Serissu), and 7. throw-away cheap ships (N'Dru & Bossk) not to mention a rather nice relatively inexpensive 1. meatshield to sit behind for engagement to keep your Hunters alive (Reinforced TacScrambler Slavers)

1. Huge ships ramming still exists, good luck with either.

2. I think you're overestimating how long Lando Escape Craft can survive and how well you'll be able to keep him out of range while remaining useful (other than as bait).

3. Either will likely end up between 10-20% of your list once built for DH Doubletap.

4. See my opinion on hyper investing in/depending on 1-2 ships for Epic scale games. It won't work the way you think it will.

5. Zuvio sounds fun, would probably be a viable option if faster, even with Cloaking Device jank.

6. Not seeing how DH AB/Marks Serissu is going to do much more than turn into expensive vapor.

7. "throw away cheap" Oh, S&V is the Zerg now?

I think I'm starting to see a reason, likely of many, why people hated 1.0 "epic". They kept trying to build around 1 or 2 lynchpin ships like they could in 100v100 only to have their list neutered after the destruction of those 1-2 ships by an opponent's more evenly built squad.

On 10/14/2019 at 9:59 AM, theBitterFig said:

I feel like Cartel Spacers with Heavy Laser Cannons will be pretty solid. 32 points gets a 4-dice attack that ought to be pretty easy to line up. Upgrading to Tansaari Point Veterans for higher Initiative might be worth it, but at 4 points for that initiative step is kind of expensive.

Heavy laser cannon on a DH seems like a waste dont you think? you lose your crits. but i think thats been discussed. anything Auto blaster seems like it could work though

4 minutes ago, Rickwilljames said:

Heavy laser cannon on a DH seems like a waste dont you think? you lose your crits. but i think thats been discussed. anything Auto blaster seems like it could work though

Spacers and Vets can't take the DH upgrade, they aren't I4. But with HLC instead they can do some pretty decent nibbling on Huge ships.

12 hours ago, GhostOfAFlea said:

Whilst Maarek is undoubtedly the first choice for Empire, I feel like Rexler is getting somewhat overlooked. The defender is such a good chassis, and the points increase for epic means we could get more than 2 in a game for once. Can defenders fly in wings? that seems like a beefy option right there, albeit very expensive.

Due to the wording, im not sure rexler would be super OP, since DH requires them to be "delt a faceup damage card" and rexler only flips pre delt cards. ( though i could be mistaken) that being said, i think he will be effective though even without DH. I mean his Card art is him shooting a capital ship, that should be proof enough! lok

59 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Its the difference between stacking a single pilot with costly upgrades painting a large bullseye on them and having a more balanced squad with more than 1 or 2 threats for the opponent to think about.

Except... the generic I4s are mostly expensive ships, moreso than S&V ships. You seem to just be trying to find something to complain about. No faction can field a generic I4 (except the Nantex) for less than 10% of their list (assuming the Dreadnaught Hunter upgrade isn't free/super cheap)

Everything you list about why Dreadnaught Hunters won't work applies to other factions too. So either Dreadnaught Hunter is a dead card in which case who cares that S&V doesn't have a bazillion I4 generics -- and geez you're obsessed with this, there's only 1 faction with more than 1 I4 generic pilot! Should everyone but Imperials be whining too? --, or Dreadnaught Hunter is good in some form and S&V should be able to match it in whatever form it's good.

1 hour ago, Rickwilljames said:

Heavy laser cannon on a DH seems like a waste dont you think? you lose your crits. but i think thats been discussed. anything Auto blaster seems like it could work though

This was addressed on the first page.

HLC Scyks should be decent ships for fighting against Huge Base opponents, even if the specific Dreadnaught Hunter card isn't a good fit. They'd be lower-case "dreadnaught hunters."

I'm calling it: I don't think Dreadnought Hunter is going to stick. Granted, it depends on points. But if you bring Dreadnought Hunter, it's a huge telegraph to your opponent what you plan to do with those one or two ships. And if you've paid for DH and your opponent decides to not even bring a huge ship...that would feel so bad.

On the other hand, the Dreadnought Hunters would have a field day against the hypothetical 10 C-ROC (yo yo) squad.

It's hard to tell, but I'm putting my credits on "there are better ways to make a squad that's balanced." And that's not even points-dependent; I just question the tactic of designating two ships to anti-hige ship duty. Which actually sounds a lot like what @Hiemfire said, now that I think about it.

13 hours ago, Parakitor said:

It's hard to tell, but I'm putting my credits on "there are better ways to make a squad that's balanced." And that's not even points-dependent; I just question the tactic of designating two ships to anti-hige ship duty.

Counterpoint: Jendon is a thing. Jendon allows certain ships to be "dedicated" to the destruction of a particular target, telegraphing their intentions, and causing them to engage less effectively against other targets.

It's an incomplete analogy; after all, you *can* manually change your lock (albeit at an opportunity cost you brought Jendon to avoid). On the other hand, a Huge ship is likely to be the center of attention regardless; its presence is likely dictating your strategy. "I should shoot the Huge" doesn't seem like a state secret, you know?

@ChahDresh Fair point. I shouldn't knock it until I try it. But right now wings seem far more appealing. Of course, I do lean heavily towards more ships in my squads, so that's an additional factor in my interest in the wing mechanics.

If I do try Dreadnaught Hunter, Gavin Darklighter and Maarek Stele will be my first choices, as others have said many times. They certainly stand head and shoulders above the rest.

6 minutes ago, Parakitor said:

@ChahDresh Fair point. I shouldn't knock it until I try it. But right now wings seem far more appealing...

If I do try Dreadnaught Hunter, Gavin Darklighter and Maarek Stele will be my first choices.

Agreed that wings do look super interesting.

I would say this about Gavin: I don't want him as my DH. He doesn't have to be. The beauty of his ability is that it works for everyone shooting at someone in his arc. I'd prefer to split my threats. Gavin is a target based on his ability alone. Make him DH and he's even more a target. Have him in the same zip code as your DH, and you get the benefits of both abilities while introducing target confusion.

On 10/17/2019 at 6:59 AM, heychadwick said:

I don't think anyone will have 2 Command slots. It would be too much if Maarek Stele could be a Wing Leader and Dreadnought Hunter. Same for Gavin. I don't think it's meant to be too powerful. I'm OK with that.

And...

On 10/17/2019 at 7:07 AM, AegisAngel said:

I don't agree with that, my concern is if they can't be wing leaders then they will get focused down to easily. Without the wingmates to pull damage from him someone like Maarek will go down very quickly under concentrated fire. On a side note I finally came up with something for Scum, Y-wing with Torps and Greedo gunner can push 2 crits in one turn.

Well, the Epic Battle Rules Reference is out today. Command slots are like other upgrades. You only get 1 per ship.

On 10/23/2019 at 10:58 PM, Parakitor said:

C-ROC (yo yo)

Yo yo! Word to your Hutt.

Thank you for that.

Dreadnaught Hunter is 10 points. No ship has more than 1 Command slot (the required slot for it and the Wing leader upgrades). Every ship has the Command upgrade slot. Theorycraft your wings responsibly folks.

10 points. Ouch. Dealbreaker for me. I'll let other people test out Dreadnought Hunter, but not me. I'm out.

2 minutes ago, Parakitor said:

10 points. Ouch. Dealbreaker for me. I'll let other people test out Dreadnought Hunter, but not me. I'm out.

Pick an I5 or I6 Wingleader (use the Generic version of the Wing Leader command upgrade) and 2 I4s or I5s of the same ship for the 2 DH upgrades. IE Vader as Wingleader with Marrik and Ved as the DH's. Marksmanship on Ved and Marrik. Predictive or Heightened on Vader. Should be plenty of points for the rest of the squad to add in other nastiness that can draw attention.