Inquistor's Handbook Hellguns (Voss Pattern)

Hellgun: Range 110m, 1d10+4 E, Pen 3

Rogue Trader Hellguns (Lucius Pattern)

Hellgun: Range 110m, 1d10+4 E, Pen 7

Ascension Hellguns (Cadian Pattern)

Hellgun: Range 50m, 1d10+4 E, Pen 7

How can the Cadian Pattern suck so much in range?

Older model? Printing Error?

Or just yet another method to screw over the worst

Career Path in Ascension?

You seem to have missed the part about the Cadian pattern hellguns being equipped with targeters and how they don't count against the one sight limit.

True, though I do think the short range is an error

Santiago said:

It may be another concession to the wargame - in the current Imperial Guard codex, Hellguns trade higher armour penetration for a shorter range.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Possible. But while I can accept the idea of different "patterns" of weapons, I am not entirely comfortable with the extreme differences. Minor tweaks in performance are believable when talking about variants. More than doubling the penetration is not a "variant" in my books.

On a similar note. Compare also the basic penetration of the "new" Hellguns vs plasmaweapons. Notice anything? Plasma has worse penetration ( firing with the variable settings from RT is the only way to win ) . I recently had to introduce a houserule ( the players suggestion ) that realigned the marching order back to Las - Bolt - Hell - Plasma -Melta. Hellguns are penetration 5, period. Crude? Yes, but keeps things simple and loyal to the background.

Technically in TT the current Storm Troopers use hotshot lasguns which are THAT much different from Hellguns but by the time they got to DH the naming seem to have got a bit confusing.

But for Plasma Guns they've always been full of suck, only RT really sorts that out (I know a lot of people were using house rules until then) and I much preffer those rules.

Hellgun as a designation covers pretty much all suped up lasguns. Think of it more of a category than the name of a specific weapons. Any lasgun designed to a high enough spec would probably be known as a hellgun.

Kaihlik

Face Eater said:

I fully concur this. The RT rules for plasma were adopted for our DH campaign the moment we saw them. The reason for the player induced house rule was a desire for consistency. All the current players in the group are long time 40K TT players and when hellguns made an entry to the campaign they started scratching their heads. "Plasma weapons have worse penetration than hellguns? Does not compute...".

Is there enough room in the Dark Heresy base to be able to introduce much variation in weaponry, though? As an outsider to the system, one of the most obvious things when "first blush" reading through the rules is that the weapon damages tend to be quite homogenous when coupled with armour protection values and, of course, the "freebie armour" that is Toughness Bonus (and which is 'invulnerable'). In terms of the damage/penetration I'm guessing that the answer is no, but there are always the other bits such as weight, clip size, etc...?

^ Honest question.

Kage

Well let's take a cold look upon the issue, shall we?

The inquisitors handbook introduced 2 types of hellguns:

-D'Laku Pattern (A Skitarii weapon with full-auto capability) Range 100 Dam 1d10+3 Pen 4

-Voss Pattern (Used by inquisitorial stormtroopers and IG grenadiers) Range 110 Dam 1d10+4 Pen 4

Ascension introduced the:

-Cadian Pattern (Kasrkin weapon) Range 50 Dam 1d10+4 Pen 7 Ammo Capacity is 10 less than the other 2 types.

Now this could be explained by different expectations and designs like more armor penetration compared to range etc. But in comes the RT:

-Lucius pattern (also called a hot-shot lasgun) Range 110 Dam 1d10+4 Pen 7

The odd man out right? Not really since the IG received a new codex between the books. And here's the kicker the hellguns got changed there:

Previously a hellgun was a 24' weapon with str 3 and ap 5. Now it's a 18' gun with str 3 and ap 3. An overall loss in range but replaced with an ap capability almost on par with plasma (AP in W40K is counted down and Str up, in case you are wondering). So my take would be that someone got confused and wrote stats that are neither here nor there.

The Ascension gun reflects the current take on hellguns, while the InqHB ones show them as they were before. The RT gun seems to be FUBAR. I would leave it be and ignore the RT gun or if you really want to change the range on the Cadian.

eh, its a big galaxy, and TBH, the difference isn't world shattering.

I suspect the range may be a typo, but its not that the clear given the influence the TT version has had on it.

@Kage, in later books there is more and more fruity weapons with odd stats, neither the discussed plasma or hellguns are that odd really.

Now that we are on the subject of hellguns, i'm not sure how the whole backpack power supply works. In IH it seens a bit confusing. Should i just throw away those rules and use the ones in acension?

A normal power pack weighs an additional 10kg, this grants the normal amount of shot as written in the description.
A larger pack can be bought, it weighs 25kg and holds 80 rounds

Santiago said:

Use the Ammo Backpack out of Ascension , page 145. 15kg, and provides 300 shots to regular laspistols/guns, and 150 to Hell-weapons. And it also can carry half the capacity of a regular backpack to boot. My NPC stormtroopers use that for their Hellgun, then strap a the smaller capacitor under for their sidearms. Unless it's their burner. Then he uses the Ammo Backpack for his flamer (usually the Nightfire ); 60 shots is much better than 3.

Arag said:

The Voss patterns are Penetration 3, not 4. Otherwise

-=Brother Praetus=-

Guess they changed that from RT...
Yup 300 for normal Las, half that for Hell...

Santiago said:

Actually someone asked the Devs shortly after Ascension was published; the official response was that they're different patterns. Thus, the Rogue Trader ones are more like older surplus items or a less efficient civilian model; while the Ascension ammo backpacks are more likely current (para-)military models. ShruG

-=Brother Praetus=-

Unless you are talking about the fact that many hellguns have a backpack power supply by default. This isn't the ammo backpack under equipment, but is a small pack that would sit below a backpack and gives the guns the stats listed. Read the weapon description on p138 of Ascension for the info.

My only real issue with the "Cadian Pattern" is that it should be the "Kantrael Pattern" and the range should be closer to about 75m.

Cadia is a fortress world and lacks factories and forges: All of it's population are soldiers, old retired soldiers, under age 10, Inquisition or convicts. There is literally no one to do such work, and it would be considered a criminal disregard for duty for a Cadian to seek such a career in the first place. Planetary population is listed as 250 million, and everyone over the age of 10 is a soldier! The population is artificially low due to most Cadians being off-world serving in the Imperial Guard or occasionally the Imperial Navy.

The Cadian Gate sub-sector has several forge worlds that devote 100% of planetary production to the Cadian Shock/Kasrkin. Kantrael is Cadia's primary forge, producing their guns, tanks, armour, blades and so on. Likewise, Agripinaa is a hive world dedicating it's entire planetary production to the manufacture and refinement of ammo for the Cadian Shock and Home Guard. Every planet in the Cadian system directly serves the war effort and nearly every planet in the sector is devoted primarily to keeping them fighting.

ZillaPrime said:

I've heard of many weapons the Cadians use as being "Cadian Pattern". Could the Cadian Pattern be named for who it is produced for and shall use it the most and not who dose the production?

Graver said:

That's been my thought. The Stormfront lasgun ( IHB page 173) is a local variant of a "Kantrael pattern lasgun," not a Kantrael -pattern. As an aside, this would also imply that the Stormfront would be analogous to the basic lasgun in use by the Cadian regiments. I'm also sure that most of the so-called "Cadian Pattern" Sentinels aren't produced in the Cadian system. It's a pattern, a design, an item with particular features and qualities. Oh, and I'd say the range would be perfect at 80-85m as opposed to 50m. After all, we're talking about 75% of 110m for the other Hellguns; which works out to 82.5, so round up or down to the nearest multiple of 5...

Unless you are talking about the fact that many hellguns have a backpack power supply by default. This isn't the ammo backpack under equipment, but is a small pack that would sit below a backpack and gives the guns the stats listed. Read the weapon description on p138 of Ascension for the info.

Yes, we (most of us anyway) are aware that the "standard" capacitor pack for hellguns are not the same as the ammo backpacks published in either Rogue Trader or Ascension . We do, however, like to bring up options and ideas we think of.

-=Brother Praetus=-

from france

i believe it to be a mistacke. the lucius pattern both gun and pistols are similar in all aspect excepte one, pen to the helgun described in the inquisitor hand book.

the lucius partern has only one common aspect to the hellgun described in ascension pen 7. so for me is a typo the lucius is the same weapons that one in the hand book. in sascension it is said that it trade range for more punch.

the 8 spider said:

Sorry, I'm having trouble understanding what you are saying...

So which of the guns is the one with the typo? And why?

from france

for me the lucius is the one with the typo because it has too much in common with the one in the inquistor handbook and only one comon point with the one from ascension.

thus the lucius should be read like the one in the inquistor handbook. he should not have a pen of 7. the hellgun described in ascension stand apart because it is trading range for firepower. so the one in ascension is correct and should be the only one alowed to have a pen of 7.

the one in the dh inquisitor handbook is correct.

the one in rt is wrong. it should have not a pen of 7

the way i see it is :

dh inquisitor handbook hellgun class basic range 110 rof s/3 dam 1d10+4 pen 4 clip 40 rld 3 full weigth 6k

hell pistol class pistol range 35 rof s/2 dam 1d10+3 pen 3 clip 20 rld 2 full weight 4k

the rt one is lucius hellgun class basic range 110 rof s/3 dam 1d10+4 pen 7 clip 30 rld 3 full weigth 6k

lucius hell pistol class pistol range 35 rof s/2 dam 1d10+3 pen 3 clip 40rld 2 full weight 4k clip

the one in ascension is.

hellgun class basic range 50 rof s/3 dam 1d10+4 pen 7 clip 30 rld 2 full weigth 6k

hell pistol class pistol range 20 rof s/2 dam 1d10+3 pen 3 clip 40 rld 2 full weight 4k

so i make a mistake they are two typo one for the clip and one for the pen. Appart of that lucius and classical hellgun are too much the same.

so i treat the one in rt like the one the handbook.

i hope ihave been clerarer this time. it s just my opinion after all. but it seem the best option to me.