1 hour ago, Hiemfire said:

They do now that replacement effects count towards paying costs.

Really - did that change in the last RR

19 minutes ago, freakyg3 said:

Really - did that change in the last RR

The one before (currently v105, change was in v104). Before that you could use Feedback+ Static to toss an Ion token onto someone at range 1 for a disarm and a stress but Feedback wouldn't do damage when you did.

1 hour ago, Hiemfire said:

The one before (currently v105, change was in v104). Before that you could use Feedback+ Static to toss an Ion token onto someone at range 1 for a disarm and a stress but Feedback wouldn't do damage when you did.

Have they actually ruled that way for this specific interaction? I could see if it said, "Gain an ion token to do..." but the "...if you do" clause seems to indicate that messing with the costs would screw it up. I mean, the effect still takes place, in the sense that you check "...if you do, each ship takes a damage", but then you get to "...if you do", find out that you didn't, and then don't distribute damage.

If they've ruled otherwise, then this just gets really, really confusing; and counter to the straightforward reading of the cards. With some of the rulings and rules changes they've made (or refused to make) recently, I have to wonder if they're actively trying to make the game as bad as 1E.

20 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

🤨 You're kidding right? More than any of the other factions S&V depends on their opponent being ignorant of how their abilities function, out and out being fools, or having the dice slant their way hard (the OP and his father in-law fell into the first category in this instance, guess what they aren't anymore). The ignorant learn, adapt and stop being ignorant, fools rarely make cut, even with mods dice will betray you. Disagree all you want with the premise of that thread, but try not to dictate that what you disagree with needs to disappear. It is a bit two faced of you to do so, especially with what you dealt with championing your own personal favorite way to play this game... 😠

Which strikes me as just poor design. If the faction is, "You don't know the trick? I win. You know the trick? You win," that's simply not a good way to draw in new players (who don't know the tricks and will be easily crushed) or keep existing players (who end up losing horribly when they face players who know the tricks).

13 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Have they actually ruled that way for this specific interaction? I could see if it said, "Gain an ion token to do..." but the "...if you do" clause seems to indicate that messing with the costs would screw it up. I mean, the effect still takes place, in the sense that you check "...if you do, each ship takes a damage", but then you get to "...if you do", find out that you didn't, and then don't distribute damage.

As I had quoted previously (page 2 RR v105 bottom right):

Paying Costs

A ship can pay a cost for an effect only if the effect can be resolved.

• For example, GNK "Gonk" Droid's ability says " Action: Spend 1 to recover 1 shield." The ship cannot spend the charge if it has no inactive shields.
• Replacement effects can replace a cost that a ship would pay for an effect. If a cost is replaced in this way, the effect is still resolved.

For Feedback Array you gain a Disarm token and an Ion token to deal damage to every ship at Range 0 (this includes the ship using the ability). Static Discharge Vanes allows you to pass off the Ion token to another ship when your ship would gain it for the cost of a stress (but only if your ship wasn't stressed already). Previously since the Ion token wasn't gained the damage wasn't done. Now the receiving of the Stress token replaces the Ion token as the required cost.

19 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Which strikes me as just poor design. If the faction is, "You don't know the trick? I win. You know the trick? You win," that's simply not a good way to draw in new players (who don't know the tricks and will be easily crushed) or keep existing players (who end up losing horribly when they face players who know the tricks).

I'm not going to argue. It definitely has been ******* with how they've been pricing the faction despite much more consistent and less easily countered control effects being available in the other factions for cheaper. Feedback Array + Static Discharge Vanes costs 12 points.

On ‎10‎/‎13‎/‎2019 at 5:26 PM, ClassicalMoser said:

Trandoshan Slaver (54)
Feedback Array (4)
Static Discharge Vanes (8)
Total: 66

66 points. You can fit three of these in a list. But what happens when a small ship bumps from the front? Absolutely nothing they can do. They have to sit there and take a damage and an ion every turn while you just burn your health down one at a time. And it's not even trivial to avoid for a casual player, especially if you fly your ships in a block.

In my case, I had two of these with a generic Lancer with Zuckuss (I'd never flown any of them before and just thought it would make an interesting game). My father in law was not pleased. Actually he's pretty disillusioned with 2.0 in general now; I'd finally got him to buy in by telling him they really went a long way toward getting rid of NPE stuff.

I guess I made a false promise.

It wasn't like I did it intentionally. I didn't realize quite how powerless it actually leaves you. I was just trying to make the YV workable by using its biggest disadvantage against my opponent. But it's utterly nasty. And very un-fun. It made me feel gross. Of course I won't use it again, but it's so strange that this kind of thing is still possible. Is it good? I have no idea. The very cheap costs of scum large-base generics makes me feel like it could be.

I don't know. I'm just a little disappointed.

To address your original point, there are currently a lot of combinations that could crop up and be viewed as NPEs.

Especially when playing against a ship or upgrade for the first time.

Part of playing the game is discovering what combos can be used, and what their actual affect on game play is.

In this particular example, if the slaver continues to bump, then it does nothing in the engagement phase (because of the disarm token) but that one damage to the ship that bumped it.

That may or may not be a very effective use of its three dice attack (that it paid 66 points for).

My guess would be now that your in-law has played against this build, he'd know what *not* to do, fly a little differently, and have a lot more success.

I've been playing this game pretty much since the beginning of 1st edition, and still view the first few plays against "unknown combos" as learning experiences.

Infinity is a fun game. The thing is, it has a lot of rule. A lot. One of my friends said, the first time you are beat by something new, you feel like your opponent cheated. Overall it is a pretty well balanced game though.

Likewise, the first time you encounter this is probably table flipping anger, especially if you are new. Extended is not nearly as balanced as hyperspace, there were early days of Jakku Gunrunner swarms. This is definitely an NPE, but it doesn't seem like a game killer by itself. Rest assured that there are far fewer, especially in hyperspace, and they try to address them when they find them.

25 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

As I had quoted previously (page 2 RR v105 bottom right):

Paying Costs

A ship can pay a cost for an effect only if the effect can be resolved.

• For example, GNK "Gonk" Droid's ability says " Action: Spend 1 to recover 1 shield." The ship cannot spend the charge if it has no inactive shields.
• Replacement effects can replace a cost that a ship would pay for an effect. If a cost is replaced in this way, the effect is still resolved.

For Feedback Array you gain a Disarm token and an Ion token to deal damage to every ship at Range 0 (this includes the ship using the ability). Static Discharge Vanes allows you to pass off the Ion token to another ship when your ship would gain it for the cost of a stress (but only if your ship wasn't stressed already). Previously since the Ion token wasn't gained the damage wasn't done. Now the receiving of the Stress token replaces the Ion token as the required cost.

Yes, I've seen the Rules Reference. And yes, this would be the case in something like the Gonk droid, which is of the form "Do X to do Y." But again, do we have a ruling specifically on "Do X. If you do, do Y" effects? Because my impression was that the entire point of such phrasing was to prevent such replacement shenanigans. In the former case, if X gets prevented or replaced, you would still do Y. In the second, I don't see it that way.

To explain further, the phrasing used on the card is not, "gain a Disarm token and an Ion token to deal damage to every ship at Range 0," but rather, "Before you engage, you may gain 1 ion token and 1 disarm token. If you do, each ship at range 0 suffers 1 damage." The way I read that, the effect is not simply "deal damage", but rather, "check to see if the costs was paid to decide if you deal damage". In this sense, yes, you would still do the effect, but since the effect is to check if the costs were paid, you would then decide they were not and fail to deal damage.

The idea that the Stress token replaces the Ion token as a cost is just ridiculous. There is nothing on Static Discharge Vanes to suggest that the Ion costs are replaced by Stress costs. Yes, from a practical point of view, you end up with a stress token instead of an ion token, but to say the one token is replacing the other as a cost (particularly a cost for the purposes of checking to ensure costs were paid) strikes me as stretching the rules to the point of breaking.

<sigh> I think all these odd rules and rulings are starting to get to me. I was pretty excited about Huge ships and epic gameplay, but I think now I'm getting to the point where I think I'll give it a few months to see how broken it is before committing to investing in it.

I’ll note that the specific cases the FAQ cited were worded exactly the same way (Yushyn/Proach compared to SDV/FA).

10 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I’ll note that the specific cases the FAQ cited were worded exactly the same way (Yushyn/Proach compared to SDV/FA).

Ah, I hadn't seen that; thank you. So seriously, what is the point of saying "...if you do..." then? It makes no sense whatsoever.

I guess for now I'll just stick to playing Armada until X-Wing's developers figure out standardized, consistent text and straightforward rulings.

11 hours ago, freakyg3 said:

discharge burns

😢

On 10/14/2019 at 1:48 AM, Enigami said:

If you really wanted to pile on with the Scum jank, add 4-LOM to fill the 2 unused points with triple Slavers. Now you can ionize at range 1 instead of range 0, and all you need is something to shoot at!

But yeah, to my knowledge the FA+SDV brand of Scum jank doesn't work competitively, this feels like a list that might work on newer players but will have a hard time with anybody that knows what it wants to do and avoids it, which is kind of easy considering FA requires Range 0.

Will Static proc as 4-LOM says you get 2 Ion tokens, Static says when you gain 1 Ion Token?

Chillax. If you are playing a casual game with an in-law your goal is to have a good time.

If either one of you built a list with a combo that the other didn't understand *at all* you are just asking for an NPE. And you did this with your in-law? Wow. It sounds like you were trying to convince him 2.0 is 'different and better', and I believe it is... but if that's your goal dare I say you're going about in not the best way.

Maintain positive experiences by setting expectations, help each other build your lists, fully disclose your list and what it does, and discuss your pros/cons and his too, and help each other learn while you play, give each other advice while you play, and finally play to a draw or at least a very close game. It's almost cooperative. You must actively avoid beating each other with tricks/combos or lack of understanding. It's not a tournament.

1 hour ago, PsychoCC said:

Will Static proc as 4-LOM says you get 2 Ion tokens, Static says when you gain 1 Ion Token?

Yes. As per the previous discussion, discharge vanes is a replacement effect, so 4-lom still triggers. You will end up with one stress and one ion token.

On 10/13/2019 at 10:57 PM, ClassicalMoser said:

Honestly a Shadow Caster generic with Zuckuss and Title is pretty good too. Tons of blues to clear the stress and free tractors if you hit. Zuckuss is mean.

Also area denial for the aforementioned bump. I’m definitely not playing this list again (still own 12 scum ships I’ve never flown anyway), but if you do, this kit seems to do the job.

Add in Snap Shot for another chance to get a tractor token on it too.