This is an interesting rules interaction I had today:

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My ship with Cluster Missiles takes a lock on Captain Seevor (Mining Guild TIE), ready to blast him and one of his moldy swarm buddies into oblivion.

I declare Seevor as the target of my attack and spend the charge on my cluster missiles.

Before dice are rolled, my opponent uses Seevor's ability to jam off my target lock.

I roll the special weapon attack (with no mods and to no avail), then attempt to spend another charge to use cluster missiles again for a bonus attack according to the missile ability.

At this point, my opponent is quite insistent that I cannot do the bonus attack, because he had jammed off my initial target lock. I showed him how the cluster missiles bonus attack ignores target lock requirements.

Then he insisted that my first shot with the Missiles should not have occurred, since the required lock had not been present PRIOR to dice being rolled.

.................

Long argument short (it was civil), I fired the bonus attack anyway (to do a whopping no damage again), and we decided to confirm the rules on this matter at a later date (which I promptly looked up after getting home today).

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The Xwing Rules Reference, page 18, says under "Special Weapons",

"

Some attacks also have special requirements listed in parentheses after the header.
◊ The “Attack (󲁁):” header indicates that the attacker must have a
lock on the defender.

"

and,

"

For cards with special requirements, all of those requirements must be met in order to perform that attack."

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(UPDATED)

My Verdict:

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Should Seevor's jam prevent the cluster missile attack (first shot) because I did not fulfill the requirements for the special attack at the time of rolling dice?

-_-_-_-_--_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_

If my opponent was correct, I would have wasted the charge spent as cost for the attack (because the timing for paying costs for the attack comes BEFORE Seevor's "before attack dice are rolled" stipulation. The word "Before" is defined on page 19 of the reules reference as: "• Before : The effect resolves immediately preceding the timing specified." ie: after step 1 and before step 2 of an attacker declaring a target and attempting to roll dice. )

[Summon @Blail Blerg , @Musical Xeno , @Rytackle , @Brunas , @pheaver ]

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UPDATE:

Thanks for all the feedback and discussion, people. I kinda felt bullied by a player I respected today, and his arguments could have easily been supported by looking at the rules a certain way. I would be very disappointed if this was ruled incorrectly at a local tournament.

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What interesting rules interactions have you had lately?

Your opponent is wrong- you can both attack Seevor and use Cluster missiles ability to attack his wingmate. You met the requirement for the attack by spending a charge and having a TL on Seevor, so you can go through with the attack. Seevor will jam the TL off of your ship, meaning that you lose it before the attack dice are rolled but after the requirements for the attack were met/paid for.

26 minutes ago, Bucknife said:

For cards with special requirements, all of those requirements must be met in order to perform that attack."

@Ikka , Seevor jams my lock off before I roll dice and complete the attack.

I would declare my target and weapon and pay the cost, per step D of step 1 of performing an attack .

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If I was judging this based on page 18 quoted above, I'd have to say that the attack requirements are not being met, and that, according to PAGE 5 of the rules reference:

• If there is no valid target for the chosen weapon, or if the attacker cannot pay the costs required for the attack, the attacking player either chooses a different weapon or chooses not to attack"

3 minutes ago, Bucknife said:

If I was judging this base don page 18 quoted above, I'd have to say that the attack requirements are not being met, and that, according to PAGE 5 of the rules reference:

• If there is no valid target for the chosen weapon, or if the attacker cannot pay the costs required for the attack, the attacking player either chooses a different weapon or chooses not to attack"

But at that point you have already met the requirements for the attack and have moved past that stage.

7 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

But at that point you have already met the requirements for the attack and have moved past that stage.

That's what I told my opponent.

And believed until I read:

For cards with special requirements, all of those requirements must be met in order to perform that attack . "

....

That's the thing with Seevor's "Before dice are rolled".

Immediately before dice are rolled happens to be after costs are paid, and there is no precedent for "refunding the cost for an attack" as far as I'm aware.

You had already paid the costs/had the requirements- Seevor's Jam initiates after that. You had completed step 1 of the Attack (Declare Target), and had moved on to step 2 (Attack Dice). The Special Weapon requirements were already met in Step 1 (D- Pay Costs). Seevor's Jam comes into effect during Step 2 (A- Roll Attack Dice) when the attacker determines the amount of dice rolled but before the end of 2A when the actual dice roll occurs.

@Ikka , I REALLY want to agree with you, but I cannot justify on paper performing an attack that I do no meet the requirements for.

Prior to rolling dice, I no longer meet the requirements to roll dice.

I must choose another weapon.

10 minutes ago, Bucknife said:

@Ikka , I REALLY want to agree with you, but I cannot justify on paper performing an attack that I do no meet the requirements for.

Prior to rolling dice, I no longer meet the requirements to roll dice.

I must choose another weapon.

Nope- You already fulfilled Step 1. You paid the cost and met the requirements. That step is now over and step 2 starts. Regardless of anything further happening to you (losing the TL, some future defensive upgrade draining away Charges from attackers, etc...) you have completed the step which required the TL/Charge. You do not go back to step 1 after you completed it.

What winds up happening, in this case, is that you will shoot a Cluster missile at Seevor, without a TL to use to mod the shot. You can then preform another Cluster attack as long as you fulfil those requirements- pay 1 Charge, target has to be Range 0-1 from Seevor (all of this occurs in step 1 of the second attack).

Seevor's ability is good for only defensively- taking off mods. He cannot stop someone from firing a TL-required weapon from shooting it at him, just from getting the re-rolls that a TL gives. The only way he can remove the TL before he gets shot is if he uses his ability offensively higher in the Imitative que than a possible attacker.

I think you are conflating "rolling dice" with "performing an attack" I don't believe they are the same thing.

The whole process is performing the attack.

14 minutes ago, Bucknife said:

@Ikka , I REALLY want to agree with you, but I cannot justify on paper performing an attack that I do no meet the requirements for.

Prior to rolling dice, I no longer meet the requirements to roll dice.

I must choose another weapon.

Strongly disagree. Requirements are checked at one specific time early in the attack, and not continuously.

The requirement of having a lock is the key to the door. Once you've opened the door, Seevor kicks you in the teeth. Door's still open, though, and the Cluster Missiles go through.

Quote

(RR 1.05, Attack, p. 4-5)

If a ship performs an attack, it becomes the attacker then follows these steps:

• 1. Declare Target: During this step, the attacking player identifies and names the defender of the attack.
  • a. Measure Range: The attacking player measures range from the attacker to any number of enemy ships and determines which enemy ships are in which of its arcs.
  • b. Choose Weapon: The attacking player chooses one of the attacker’s primary or special weapons.
  • c. Declare Defender: The attacking player chooses an enemy ship to be the defender. The defender must meet the requirements defined by the weapon.
    • [This is where Cluster Missiles checks the Lock requirement]
  • d. Pay Costs: The attacker must pay any costs for performing the attack.
    • [This is where Cluster Missiles spends the charge]
• 2. Attack Dice: During this step, the attacking player rolls attack dice and the players can modify the dice.
  • [Seevor happens here, before 2.a]
  • a. Roll Attack Dice: [...] Then they roll that many dice.
  • b. Modify Attack Dice: The players resolve abilities that modify the attack dice. The defending player resolves their abilities first, then the attacking player resolves their abilities.

I'd also say this is pretty clearly the intent of the card. If Seevor was intended to jam a ship before the attack took place, in order to deny someone a special attack, the timing would have been not before dice are rolled, but when declared as a defender. Even then, that might be too late of a timing.

Seevor is not effectively immune to Missile/Torpedo attacks.

1 hour ago, Bucknife said:

For cards with special requirements, all of those requirements must be met in order to perform that attack . "

@theBitterFig , @gamblertuba ,, @Ikka

I really appreciate the feedback, but how are we, the common players or local judges, supposed to parse

"PERFORM THE ATTACK"

I would assume rolling dice is performing the attack.

I feel led to assume by rules as written that this rolling of dice and DECLARING A TARGET (and paying costs for the opportunity) are totally separate from actually performing an attack.

I wish it seemed foolproof on paper, but the fact the my opponent had any leg to stand on against what you guys are implying (and which I agree seems to be the intent), tells me that there is a need for official clarification.

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If Seevor's ability instead said, ," Before Attack dice are rolled, you may perform a Barrel Roll. " then what if my Heavy Laser Cannon was no longer in bullseye arc before I rolled attack dice?

I feel that the above imaginary scenario and the real problem I've described from my game today are identical in their foundation.

I NO LONGER FULFILL THE REQUIREMENTS OF HLC; Seevor is out of bullseye arc. I cannot shoot Seevor (roll my dice) with my special attack and must choose a new weapon.

If the rules support the above example, then Seevor is potentially immune to any special attacks that are dependant on a token that can be jammed by his ability

It's all written in the attack queue. There are specific steps to perform an attack, in sequence, that you must complete to make the attack work. While Seevor's wording should probably make it clearer where it occurs just for clarity, the wording does state before rolling dice. This means that it can comes before the end of step 2A, which is when the attacker rolls dice. Since it does not state that Seevor's ability activates when fired on, or when declared a target, the attacker may complete all of Step 1 and most of step 2A before Seevor's ability kicks in. Seevor would only invalidate a TL/Focus/Calculate-requiring special attack if the wording stated that the attacker gained a Jam token when Seevor was declared a target, as 1C (Declare Defender) occurs before 1D (Pay Costs).

It all comes down to the wording on Seevor "before attack dice are rolled". Ikka is correct in that by this time (right before 2a), declaring the target and any requirements are done with. Another way to think of it is this: Seevor's timing is written like that specifically to not prevent special attacks from being stopped by it, but to remove the ability to use the Lock or Focus (or Evade if someone has Juke) to modify the attack.

If Seevor's ability triggered when he was declared the defender (1c.) then it would prevent the special attack if the Lock was Jammed off.

32 minutes ago, Bucknife said:

If Seevor's ability instead said, ," Before Attack dice are rolled, you may perform a Barrel Roll. " then what if my Heavy Laser Cannon was no longer in bullseye arc before I rolled attack dice?

I feel that the above imaginary scenario and the real problem I've described from my game today are identical in their foundation.

I NO LONGER FULFILL THE REQUIREMENTS OF HLC; Seevor is out of bullseye arc. I cannot shoot Seevor (roll my dice) with my special attack and must choose a new weapon.

If the rules support the above example, then Seevor is potentially immune to any special attacks that are dependant on a token that can be jammed by his ability

Rules As Written would state that even in that hypothetical, Seevor still gets hit, as Step 1 is completed before Seevor would Barrel Roll away- the range was measured in Step 1A (Seevor in range), the weapon chosen in 1B (HLC picked), defender declared in 1C (Seevor is target), and bulleye's arc requirement paid in 1C (Seevor is in arc) as well. Seevor would still get hit with the HLC (All requirements met and/or paid), but he would have barrel-rolled before the dice were physically rolled. The attacker would move to Step 2A (Roll Attack Dice), and would have calculated the correct number of dice rolled for the attack. Nothing changes here, as this all still happens before the attack dice are rolled. Once the dice were counted, but before rolled, Seevor can barrel roll- the movement would not effect anything earlier due to its timing wording.

Now, is this what they intended when they wrote Seevor's ability? No idea. Unfortunately, we don't play Rules As Intended, we play them as Written. So RAW, Seevor will be hit with any token dependent weapon; he cannot Jam off the token before the attack is paid for and he will be hit.

14 minutes ago, Bucknife said:

@theBitterFig , @gamblertuba ,, @Ikka

I really appreciate the feedback, but how are we, the common players or local judges, supposed to parse

"PERFORM THE ATTACK"

I would assume rolling dice is performing the attack.

I feel led to assume by rules as written that this rolling of dice and DECLARING A TARGET (and paying costs for the opportunity) are totally separate from actually performing an attack.

I wish it seemed foolproof on paper, but the fact the my opponent had any leg to stand on against what you guys are implying (and which I agree seems to be the intent), tells me that there is a need for official clarification.

The whole flowchart is "Perform The Attack" from steps 1 through 6. Presuming that rolling the dice is "performing the attack" isn't supported by the Rules Referee--nothing in Attack Dice /Step 2 calls itself 'performing an attack' or uses words at all similar. I think it's leaping to a pretty big conclusion--rather than reading the rules--to assume that the dice roll is the attack-itself. Requirements are mentioned only in step 1, never later. Requirements are all about selecting targets, and they've all been satisfied and the target selected before moving into Step 2 (which is where Seevor happens, before 2.a).

//

I also want to note that official rulings from FFG on Qi'ra support this completely. There was an argument that Qi'ra didn't allow a ship on a rock to perform attacks, because it only applied "while attacking" and folks wanted to draw a distinction between that and "becoming the attacker."

But the official ruling slapped that down, because "while attacking" lasts from the very start, because "performing the attack" isn't just the red dice roll--it's the entire process. That's why Qi'ra's "while" applies to target selection and even the fundamental decision to attack.

1 minute ago, Bucknife said:

If Seevor's ability instead said, ," Before Attack dice are rolled, you may perform a Barrel Roll. " then what if my Heavy Laser Cannon was no longer in bullseye arc before I rolled attack dice?

I feel that the above imaginary scenario and the real problem I've described from my game today are identical in their foundation.

I NO LONGER FULFILL THE REQUIREMENTS OF HLC; Seevor is out of bullseye arc. I cannot shoot Seevor (roll my dice) with my special attack and must choose a new weapon.

If the rules support the above example, then Seevor is potentially immune to any special attacks that are dependant on a token that can be jammed by his ability

But that's NOT what the card says, and certainly not text that any ship would ever have . The trigger for a movement ability able to happen before an attack would almost surely be "Before you are declared the defender" to make it clear that this is an ability which preempts the selection of a defender and thus preempts requirements, or maybe "When an opponent becomes the active ship in the Engagement phase."

There are times the Devs aren't as clear as they could be (but are still clear enough if we're not stirring up too much mud). This isn't one of those times. You've got five folks here saying your opponent didn't have a leg to stand on.

So what you guys are saying is that even though Seevor can change the board state (remove tokens, or in our hypothetical, Barrel Roll COMPLETELY OUT OF ARC), he can still be shot by that special weapon because, "the cost had been paid"?

That doesn't seem supported by the line,

2 hours ago, Bucknife said:

For cards with special requirements, all of those requirements must be met in order to perform that attack."

How can I roll dice and perform an attack if the requirements for rolling those dice are denied me before I roll them, whether that's because of token-dependancy or arc or range or any other means?

It really seems to imply that

9 minutes ago, Ikka said:

Seevor is potentially immune to any special attacks that are dependant on a token that can be jammed by his ability

7 minutes ago, Bucknife said:

So what you guys are saying is that even though Seevor can change the board state (remove tokens, or in our hypothetical, Barrel Roll COMPLETELY OUT OF ARC), he can still be shot by that special weapon because, "the cost had been paid"?

That doesn't seem supported by the line,

2 hours ago, Bucknife said:

For cards with special requirements, all of those requirements must be met in order to perform that attack

That line is in reference to Step 1 of the Attack queue, specifically Step 1C (Declare Defender). That step is completed before Seevor's ability is activated, it does not effect anything beyond Step 1. As @theBitterFig stated, FFG has ruled before about specific timing/wording choices. In this case, Seevor is going to be attacked with a special weapon and he cannot prevent it with his ability due to the specific wording on his card (before attack dice are rolled) and the timing of when that occurs in the attack process (end of 2A), because all of the special weapon attack requirements have been made before his ability triggers (special weapon requirements are paid at Step 1C, costs are paid at 1D). I can't make it any clearer than that.

@theBitterFig erFig, could you please share the example about Quira in detail?

I could be wrong, but it sounds like what is happening is (in universe) Seevor's ship computer pings, letting him know someone has acquired target lock. He turns on the jamming system. But unfortunately for Seevor the torpedo or missile has already been fired by the time he gets the jammer turned on . End result, dice get rolled as normal. But if the other ship had merely fired their lasers using that target lock, he would prevent the opposing ship using target lock to reroll.

5 minutes ago, Bucknife said:

@theBitterFig erFig, could you please share the example about Quira in detail?

Naw. It's late (I'm logging right now), and I don't think the topic is confusing enough to warrant the effort.

19 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Naw. It's late (I'm logging right now), and I don't think the topic is confusing enough to warrant the effort.

That's fine.

I just scanned the Official Rulings thread and the Qi'ra post was Oct 3, 2018.

But it said nothing regarding what you said here:

38 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

There was an argument that Qi'ra didn't allow a ship on a rock to perform attacks, because it only applied "while attacking" and folks wanted to draw a distinction between that and "becoming the attacker."

But the official ruling slapped that down, because "while attacking" lasts from the very start, because "performing the attack" isn't just the red dice roll--it's the entire process. That's why Qi'ra's "while" applies to target selection and even the fundamental decision to attack.

58 minutes ago, Bucknife said:

All I'm saying is,

As an experienced player ...

who is familiar with the game and rules...

who was playing another experienced player...

who is very familiar with the rules...

using a top meta list with a pilot seen very often right now...

There was a very real discussion about whether or not Seevor could become immune to the use of a token-dependant special weapon.

If I'm posting this now, then it's probably already been an issue several hundreds of times for players who look at each other going, does this work? Is this okay?"

"Should I get my charge token back then?"

"Can I still shoot at all? Or did I run too far down the rabbit hole of 'I was attacking, but now I'm not...'"

"No dude. I was already "attacking you", so tough luck. I shoot with my Torp."

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It's super frustrating....

18 minutes ago, Bucknife said:

It's super frustrating....

True, but currently (with no FAQ changing it) that is how Seevor works.

1 hour ago, Bucknife said:

For cards with special requirements, all of those requirements must be met in order to perform that attack .

It seems that this is the key part of the process that you keep quoting but that you keep missing. If you follow the steps IN ORDER , by the time you get to the step where Seevor jams, you have already met all the requirements and paid all the costs. The next step does not say, "Now that you are ready to roll dice, lets go back and double check to make sure you still have a lock." The next step is just roll attack dice. So you ARE completing all the steps IN ORDER and the attack continues except you do not get to reroll your attack dice because you no longer have the lock.

UPDATE:

Thanks for all the feedback and discussion, people. I kinda felt bullied by a player I respected today, and his arguments could have easily been supported by looking at the rules a certain way. I would be very disappointed if this was ruled incorrectly at a local tournament.

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In the future, I'll be ruling Seevor in such that his jam does not prevent token-dependant special attacks, but it's unnerving that at future local events there could be a big scene about it.

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Anyone else have any other Seevor stories or feedback?

Good luck at worlds everyone!

(I hope Resistance wins...)