11 minutes ago, svelok said:

It takes thousands of players months to sort out what's good

Yea, I know . I said as much in my post; that's the point. This would be a wider test bed than they currently work with, setting the community loose to find potential problems before they hit the meta. And it would be fun for the community to explore changes that could happen, whether or not FFG is directly sponsoring it.

I'm sure FFG would like to have a wider test bed that's not the core game, basically expanding their internal testing to the community (again, taking it to thousands of players). You don't find everything that way, but exploits or balance results you do find in that time are useful info, and the experience explains to the community why ship X can't be below y points. And it adds a variety night that shakes things up at the game store.

13 minutes ago, mcgreag said:

You can stop the Force. There are 2 "anti" force pilots in the game atm, Lt Kestal and Midnight. Yes neither are good enough right now but they prove that it's possible to create anti force abilities without any fundamental changes to the game.

I really like Kestal and I've tried to put her to good use; when she works it's hilarious. It's too bad she's tied to such a flawed ship. High B-Tier counters can go a long way to making sure certain playstyles or lists don't dominate, but remain viable. Often what gets played is less about its power in isolation, but what it's potentially up against. A B-Tier that gives specific meta lists **** can make the meta-game far more exciting, especially if other B-Tier lists counter that meta-hunter. I likes me a wide, diverse meta.

I've also tried Midnight but found the ship lacked teeth. Giving her Advanced Optics and either Crack Shot or Predator seems nice, but you're devoting a quarter of your list to a 2-dice attacker that prevents mods to one ship at a time, so it's tough to get any work out of her. She just seems so compelling on paper...

The force, by original design, bypasses many "cannot modify" rules like Blinded Pilot or losing your green tokens to Old Teroch & friends. It's supposed to remain solid where other options fail. That both makes it thematically awesome, and mechanically a bit hard to restrain and counter. It's not necessarily bad on its own, but at the upper end it can nova into really powerful, reliable dice mods and abilities.

I'm still hoping regen gets curb-stomped into the upper-tier of pricing so we can see Jedi for a few months without it. And ideally some more options (like Kestal/Midnight) to give other heavy force users something to fear, like a crew that cannot regen force but steals one from defenders for a cost... something dumb like that might be worth exploring, or it might be junk.

IMO inquisitors swarms are fun to fight and I've liked what I've seen of them, but chasing aces and trying to trap them for an hour as they regen force + shields and pick their moments gets so tedious. Force on a few specific efficient, mobile, high-init monsters is the problem, not force itself. It's hard to come up with a counter that doesn't hose less troublesome force users.

The meta needs something to counter massive formations, Moldy Swarm, Quad Vipers in the corner....

I summon....

TRAJECTORY SIMULATOR.

The meta needs Imp Ace counters...

I summon....

Um....

YV666?

14 minutes ago, Bucknife said:

The meta needs something to counter massive formations, Moldy Swarm, Quad Vipers in the corner....

I summon....

TRAJECTORY SIMULATOR.

The meta needs Imp Ace counters...

I summon....

Um....

YV666?

There’s the 3x yv list with static discharge babes that someone built. Hilarious.

39 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

There’s the 3x yv list with static discharge babes that someone built. Hilarious.

Hyperspace legal in t-minus.... 2 months.

40 minutes ago, Bucknife said:

Hyperspace legal in t-minus.... 2 months.

Relies on Feedback Array, so maybe.

16 hours ago, Cuz05 said:

Imo, Defenders have been dropping since the start for no real reason. It's a weird ship. None of the changes have particularly impacted how I view it or use it. But I do know it's good, and if they keep dropping it, I'm picking up some new dangerous bits and bobs every time. It won't be long before I'm asked to never bring it to casual night

Totally. I play Defenders fairly often (not as much lately as in early 1e, but I still fly them some), and no one locally thinks they need to be cheaper.

While I don't really think they're overpriced (maybe Vessery/Countess...), they're also a ship where I don't necessarily mind if they are. While they're kind of odd, there's something really easy about the white K-Turn and Full Throttle. They don't perform super well at larger tournaments these days, but can be hard to beat on casual night. As such, I don't really mind if they pay a bit of a tax for that. Defenders have some of that old 1e untouchability to them, and could probably be obnoxious if we saw too many of them too often.

//

By the way, what's your current Vessery/Inquisitors list? I'm not sure I've ever played anything other than a Delta (and only like once in a list other than Delta/Delta/Palp), and it might be fun to branch out a bit.

Dealing with force users is difficult. I've been mulling over ways to get more out of midnight and I think snapshot maybe the answer. Unfortunately I dont get to play very much this time of year so I haven't been able to test it.

28 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

By the way, what's your current Vessery/Inquisitors list? I'm not sure I've ever played anything other than a Delta (and only like once in a list other than Delta/Delta/Palp), and it might be fun to branch out a bit.

AdvS and Outmanoeuvre on Vess, Supernat, Conc and FCS on the Inqs.

Had some troubles last time out. Lost all 3 I played with it

Quality players though. 1st was lost on the last roll, with an Inq blanking on greens and a bad decision on Vess trying and failing to nail Guri.... went without mods for the shot and did nothing. Extremely close though.

Got annihilated by Phil GC, lol.

Then flew a full health, full load Inq off the table unnecessarily, fairly early, while in a really strong position against triple Rep aces. Doh. (By 1mm!)

Still convinced it's a powerful list but it's genuinely very hard to fly against the meta. It is totally built for Vess, none of the other pilots will bring the same mileage.

It's quirky. You have to fake and shrug off the 1st engage and then start actual favourable engage positioning. Muck that 1st part up and it's a real slog. The real aim is to give up no points at all, whilst bashing isolated things down one at a time

Lately preferring the HS version, which swaps Vess for Precog Vader and a 10pt bid. That's pretty monstrous, but you know, Vader. Get in. Smash.

(next Defender list I run may be this.....

Rexler Brath, Lone Wolf. "Echo", Fifth Brother, Targeting Computer. "Pure Sabacc", Snap Shot.

Total points: 200)

Am I doing the math wrong? Outmaneuver/AdvS Vess comes out to 100, and the V1s at 51 each.

9 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Am I doing the math wrong? Outmaneuver/AdvS Vess comes out to 100, and the V1s at 51 each.

My bad. Had Outmanoeuvre and Clusters but opted for HLC and Concs in the end. I think I'd stick with the latter, the Concs are too important vs aces.

Drop Vess by 2, Outmanouevre fits. List would be BEASTMODE.

Which does tie in to other point changes. Vess down, Concs down, Inqs up. Still fits in 200? Rubs hands together....

14 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

There’s the 3x yv list with static discharge babes that someone built. Hilarious.

This is the list I was referring to, @Cuz05 . Pretty NPE if you get it right. Mostly boring either way.

21 hours ago, Wazat said:

[...]

BTW with TIE Interceptors, I find myself imagining what would happen if Saber Squadron Aces were init 5 instead of 4 (and price-adjusted of course). A no-frills ace for interceptor spam or ace list filler. I'm not optimistic it'd be great for the game though. Empire enjoys enough filler aces already. Maybe in Epic they'll have some sort of team leader situation, since flying in formation takes some of the strengths away from aces (hard to arc-dodge when you're all moving in a line).

[...]

So what about an Empire only, charge based talent that allow you to treat your initiative as 5 during the phase you spend 2/3 charges.

Consider it "Elite Pilot Training".

Probably 2 or 3 dot limited to prevent spam and represent its only elite pilots that its for.

Being able to only use it everything other turn for activation or shooting would be enough of a choice and not too abusable, or do you think everything three turns would be better/less abusable.

And its good on any platforms, but mostly aces or mid initiative ordnance carriers.

Too strong?

Not fair on other factions?

9 minutes ago, Scum4Life said:

Not fair on other factions?

Yes. And there are good reasons why Veteran Instincts did not make it into 2nd ed.

6 minutes ago, Managarmr said:

Yes. And there are good reasons why Veteran Instincts did not make it into 2nd ed.

Seconded. Initiative needs to be baked into the pilot with no way to adjust it (save engagement-only stuff like swarm tactics and roark). I remember 1E's PS wars all too well ... If you think init 3 and 4 are useless now...

And note that in my post, I said an init 5 generic interceptor would probably be bad for the game. I was sharing the idea as something that keeps coming to mind, but ultimately wouldn't be appropriate.

13 hours ago, Wazat said:

Seconded. Initiative needs to be baked into the pilot with no way to adjust it (save engagement-only stuff like swarm tactics and roark). I remember 1E's PS wars all too well ... If you think init 3 and 4 are useless now...

And note that in my post, I said an init 5 generic interceptor would probably be bad for the game. I was sharing the idea as something that keeps coming to mind, but ultimately wouldn't be appropriate.

Ok so what if it was a single charge, treat your initiative as 5 during the activation or engagement phase, single use. Non-recurring charge.

Not as good as heitened perception but might help an I2-4 pilot get a shot / dodge an arc.

Surely thats not OP.

Probably shouldnt be Empire only though.

I think swarm tactics was the way devs decided you could "cheat" pilot ini.

6 hours ago, Scum4Life said:

Ok so what if it was a single charge, treat your initiative as 5 during the activation or engagement phase, single use. Non-recurring charge.

Not as good as heitened perception but might help an I2-4 pilot get a shot / dodge an arc.

Surely thats not OP.

Probably shouldnt be Empire only though.

I'd still be extremely hesitant about it. Too many flashbacks.

Also it doesn't really solve the problem, it just gives the mangled body of I3-4 ships a crutch. Now they have to carry the crutch instead of equipping something more interesting in their talent slot. And devote the points to the crutch. And not all I3-4 pilots have a talent anyway.

The mid-init problem needs a different solution, IMO.

I think just reducing the points of I3/4 generics will do something. If you want one for the talent slot, you're not so double taxed. It's also sporadically useful, out PSing enemy generics, but it needs to be a more balanced choice.

I3/4 is generally fine if you're bringing them for their ability.

Just as a fun comparison. Here is the breakdown of initiative for the top 40 pilots on metawing for second edition so far.

Keep in mind though that there are only 16 initiative 6 pilots even in the game. So when initiative 6 accounts for 10% of the top 40 pilots that means fully one quarter of the initiative 6 pilots are in the top 40.

This graph shows what percentage of available pilots at each initiative make the top 40 on metawing.

Initiative 5 and 6 pilots still need a major price increase. Or everyone else needs a decrease which is more dangerous.

3 hours ago, gamblertuba said:

Initiative 5 and 6 pilots still need a major price increase. Or everyone else needs a decrease which is more dangerous.

Initiative 5 is generally undercosted, could go up by a couple of points(or 5 for force users). 6 not as much, though some are(Soontir for example), and some are not(Scum Han, Dengar, probably some others), Han's probably fine, and Dengar overcosted.

Initiative 3-4 pilots are generally overcosted by a point or two.

You could probably lower most initiative 1-2 named pilots a point too, or be more generous with talent slots.

3 hours ago, gamblertuba said:

Just as a fun comparison. Here is the breakdown of initiative for the top 40 pilots on metawing for second edition so far.

Keep in mind though that there are only 16 initiative 6 pilots even in the game. So when initiative 6 accounts for 10% of the top 40 pilots that means fully one quarter of the initiative 6 pilots are in the top 40.

This graph shows what percentage of available pilots at each initiative make the top 40 on metawing.

Initiative 5 and 6 pilots still need a major price increase. Or everyone else needs a decrease which is more dangerous.

Is the entire Grey part of that populated by Trade Federation Drones?

7 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

Is the entire Grey part of that populated by Trade Federation Drones?

Wrong Vultures. 🤣

Trade Feds:

And the difference isn't semantical, the core programming of the Separatist Vultures is allot better (thus I3).

2 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Wrong Vultures. 🤣

Trade Feds:

And the difference isn't semantical, the core programming of the Separatist Vultures is allot better (thus I3).

...wut

Not all 6's of course but there are plenty. Moving last is just such a huge deal. Look at the silly bids that are out there.

Soooooo many 5's are a steal right now.

And the droids can't be the initiative 1's all the whole way back to the start of 2nd Ed. The x-axis is roughly time.