Might have to do with the way you fly aces. The cagey, hit & run method gives lots of time to replenish that force. If you're staying in the tussle then that makes for a much more fun game for both players IMO, but bad play experiences are acceptable and even admired in the competitive world.

IMO ion isn't the guaranteed counter-play it's portrayed as. Ion has to land with at least 2 uncanceled hits/crits before it matters -- that's hard against the cagey aces playstyle (when you do get a shot, it has to dig through solid defenses). It's only a hard counter when it takes . And in my experience, when you do get the perfect ion shot in, you still have to manage to killbox and kill the ship (which is harder than it sounds, and opens you up to the list's other aces in the process); if it gets away it can regen 2 shields and often get out of half-points territory while its allies finish you off. Force plays to this playstyle really well.

I'm interested in seeing whether jedi stop feeling so strong when shield regen is priced higher, or simply taken away from them. That wouldn't take the incentive away from playing super-cagey, but it would take away a large advantage to that playstyle. Now you're regenerating force only as you skirt the battlefield, not also shields. Now that killbox that almost killed you still matters.

I'm interested in why jedi didn't do so well in worlds. It could be bad matchups (did really well, then faced really tough opponents and dropped in rankings? might have really high SOS), or fewer people flying them due to burnout or fearing hard counters, or there might be an unexpected weakness against the lists that floated to the top, or maybe the really good players decided that it would be a larf to take scum as far as they could. That last one appeals to me because that's my approach to tournaments.

But if we can draw any conclusions from worlds that almost nobody with disagree with, it's that jedi will drop in price and scum will go up in price. President Snow is not happy.

19 hours ago, Deffly said:

Silencers not named Kylo still need to come down more, minor changes to some FO and UPS pilots could help too (eg. Static or Cardinal).

Generic /SF's could go up 1pt too.

Generic TIE/sfs and generic RZ-2s should cost the same. I'd be fine going either way, SFs up 1, RZ-2s back down 1 (but Tallie, Greer, and Zari steady).

Any increase in TIE/sfs should be met with an equal or larger decrease in Special Forces Gunner. Non-QD SFs with the gunner are rare. 42 points is probably right, but they aren't really getting flown much. Is 41 too cheap?

Any decrease in SFGunner should have an equal increase in Quickdraw. 55 is right for them with the gunner.

While Jedi are unquestionably strong, might just be a list issue

Jedi spam is strong; less so when they move before an opponent (and apparently there were some CRAZY bids)

A single Jedi is strong, but maybe Obi-Arc-enobi isn't sitting super well with folks

I understand, because multiple medi bases are difficult to fly. Still, imagined we'd see Obi, two Arcs, and ICT + Cody Broadsides

5 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I will say that I disagree here. I think 46-48 points is the right cost for most I4 Rebels and 33 points is the right cost for I1 Tie Interceptors (and maybe strikers if Interceptors get another talent slot) outside the context of a spam list, because spam lists are always jank anyway. I don't think I would feel quite the same about 40 point X-Wing and B-Wing generics. The Kihraxz is really good at 38 points, and I think the X-Wing is at least 2 points better. I could be proven wrong.

What I wrote is a very nuanced opinion. I'd like to ask you to look at it again.

The "Spirit" I'm saying is the precedent of nerfing Rebel Beef that makes certain combinations of raw power at 200pts no longer tenable. So on for the same justifications for not going past the spam boundary for many generics, ex 3x66 Tie Defenders.

So, sadly, you will note that I never said that 33 is the wrong cost for Ints. In fact, I think it's 32. Its just that 6Tie Ints isn't where FFG wants this game to go.

3 hours ago, Wazat said:

[...]

But if we can draw any conclusions from worlds that almost nobody with disagree with, it's that jedi will drop in price and scum will go up in price. President Snow is not happy.

That'll make @Hiemfire explode 🤣 Which wouldn't do as I love hearing his input on the game.

I could see BSAs go up a point, just couple it with dropping a point on Dalan and 2 on Xizor. Simples.

4 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

What I wrote is a very nuanced opinion. I'd like to ask you to look at it again.

The "Spirit" I'm saying is the precedent of nerfing Rebel Beef that makes certain combinations of raw power at 200pts no longer tenable. So on for the same justifications for not going past the spam boundary for many generics, ex 3x66 Tie Defenders.

So, sadly, you will note that I never said that 33 is the wrong cost for Ints. In fact, I think it's 32. Its just that 6Tie Ints isn't where FFG wants this game to go.

Oh no I'm totally aware of that.

But as I see it the problem with rebel beef was more the underpriced named pilots (mostly Braylen and Wedge) that made both superefficient and high-initiative combos possible. Generics are still out in the cold a bit. If we truly wish to see balance, we have to buff what's too weak and nerf what's too strong, even if that allows crossing specific thresholds. I thought that was what you were saying.

Also I do think that the current Alpha interceptor is worth 32 points. I also think the current I1 striker is probably worth a similar amount and differentiation is quite difficult at I1. That's one reason I would support an extra elite on all Interceptors (after the precedent set by the RZ-1, RZ-2, and Nantex). 33 will still be necessary though.

6 Interceptors wouldn't be good. They're too variance-prone. 4 + Howlrunner also won't be good. They're too squishy. But the cost has to come down or it's not worth it as a blocker, flanker, or anything else, really.

9 minutes ago, Scum4Life said:

That'll make @Hiemfire explode 🤣 which wouldn't do as I love hearing his input on the game.

I could see BSAs go up a point, just couple it with dropping 1 points on Dalan and 2 on Xizor. Simples.

Explode? No. Toss out a pained and salty "I warned you"? Yes...

6 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Delta Squadron Pilot - 68

Onyx Squadron Ace - 74

Countess Ryad - 76

Colonel Vessery - 79

Rexler Brath - 80

Woah there buddy. You're looking on the brink of UNLIMITED POWAH there.

I do think Ryad and the Onyx could still drop a point or 2 and be ok. Might be nice.

But the others are fine. They are all strong. The value is more to do with what you can fit in with it. Imperial aces have been dancing the knife edge of OP quite nicely.

Force users. New rule. You can only perform 1 regen of a token of a hue resembling the sky at different parts of the day once per turn.

9 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

Woah there buddy. You're looking on the brink of UNLIMITED POWAH there.

I do think Ryad and the Onyx could still drop a point or 2 and be ok. Might be nice.

But the others are fine. They are all strong. The value is more to do with what you can fit in with it. Imperial aces have been dancing the knife edge of OP quite nicely.

Force users. New rule. You can only perform 1 regen of a token of a hue resembling the sky at different parts of the day once per turn.

Note that I did not decrease the cost of Rexler Brath, who is the strongest Defender pilot. The others were only reduced by one except the inexplicably overpriced I4 Vessery and Ryad. Note that the Onyx is used quite little, and Vessery and Ryad are nearly nonexistent competitively. Their abilities are probably worth 2 and 5 points or so (remember that Ryad doesn't have any blue K-turns anymore, just a slightly larger array of white ones), and that really is all that you're getting over the onyx; the Onyx is also I4 and has a talent slot.

Duchess needs to go up 4, Soontir needs to go up 3, Vader needs to go up 3. Quiz is probably fine, but the jury's still out. The problem is not TIE Defenders.

It's my opinion that the problem with Jedi is initiative, not regen. The regen does make a nice combo with their ability to run, but the real issue is that Obi-Wan and Plo Koon are both underpriced by about 5 points, which is more than any other ship in the game. Anakin is near the correct price. Mace Windu is probably close as well. It's the insane economy of information, positioning, and mods that Plo and Obi-Wan get that's worth way more than their price tag.

52 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Its just that 6Tie Ints isn't where FFG wants this game to go.

Maybe not, BB, but I know it'd put *me* in a really happy place.

I don't want to make Hiemfire explode, we all like him too much!

But I am a bit pessimistic about FFG's intentions...

BTW with TIE Interceptors, I find myself imagining what would happen if Saber Squadron Aces were init 5 instead of 4 (and price-adjusted of course). A no-frills ace for interceptor spam or ace list filler. I'm not optimistic it'd be great for the game though. Empire enjoys enough filler aces already. Maybe in Epic they'll have some sort of team leader situation, since flying in formation takes some of the strengths away from aces (hard to arc-dodge when you're all moving in a line).

I like that the Sabers are high-init generics that do a good job of hunting other generics and some named pilots, but their delicate frame and random survival track record makes them a bit too... hrm, dicey. If there is one thing the history of X-Wing has taught us it's that dice will not be contained. Dice break free, they expand to new absurdities and crash through barriers, painfully, maybe even dangerously, but, uh… well, there it is.

(sardonically) "There it is"

"You're implying that a group composed entirely of modded green dice will… always blank?"

No. I'm, I'm simply saying that dice, uh… find a way.

Poor tie/in. Whatever your strategy, whatever your tokens, those interceptors are doomed. They lack the health to soak the hits that get through, the way other presumably delicate ships can (many aces are surprisingly bulky, with 5 or 6, sometimes 7 health); they lack the init of Soontir to arc-dodge and init-kill; and they lack the free mods of jedi to lend them the action economy they need. So they're relatively ineffective, and too frail to spread their odds over multiple rounds. Points reductions will either make their spam too strong, or leave them in the uncanny valley of middling init and too pricey for the frame -- 3 HP and 3 Agility is tough at that price point. It's just an awkward, RNG-dominated place.

I keep wanting to run something like this but I know it's doomed.

• Alpha Squadron Pilot
• 3x Saber Squadron Pilot with Crack Shot
• Howlrunner with Elusive

I have flown 5x alphas/sabers with some success, but boxing them around howlrunner is a recipe for disaster. They need to be able to move independently. But without the force multiplier on their attacks, they struggle to bring anything down. And once they're up against aces, they really struggle to land hits on foes and avoid shallow, meaningless deaths after having accomplished very little.

I loved sabers in Epic though; that might be where they ultimately shine. Take lots of generics into battle with focus tokens and suddenly it doesn't matter how well-defended that enemy ship is, it dies this round . Often a bad idea to invest in aces and fatties, because they can't thrive in that environment. Just too many dice being thrown, and too many arcs. Epic is where low- and maybe middle-init generics get their revenge.

Maybe too much so. We'll have to see how FFG manages swarms and firepower concentration, especially with force multipliers.

12 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Note that I did not decrease the cost of Rexler Brath, who is the strongest Defender pilot. The others were only reduced by one except the inexplicably overpriced I4 Vessery and Ryad.

The problem is not TIE Defenders.

You did drop Rex by 1. He was fine at 84. He's made the others look expensive now, but his offence > cost is fine. He is actually very good for 81 and right on the margin for wingmates/tech.

Ryad is alright at 82 but it still makes no sense for her to be more than Rex, so 80/81. Extra spare points cross barely any margins that Rex can't. Tiny net gain.

Vessery. Same kind of margin as the others currently. A few extra things dont fit. Difficult to utilise. But I have, and it's phenomenal. Drop him to where you can make proper, easy use of him and he becomes one broken, barely killable bastard, Hulk smashing everything. It's difficult to balance him. So he's fine there, he's usable. Just.

Onyx crosses no real boundaries dropped by 2, as far as I'm aware. It's just not a thing people go for at that price. Raw efficiency or helpful words and numbers is the thing, so I don't think it matters. You can use it, but it'll never really directly compare with the others in function.

Imo, Defenders have been dropping since the start for no real reason. It's a weird ship. None of the changes have particularly impacted how I view it or use it. But I do know it's good, and if they keep dropping it, I'm picking up some new dangerous bits and bobs every time. It won't be long before I'm asked to never bring it to casual night

I still think the only reason you don't see more of them is because it's such a weird ship. It's expensive without really being a defined tank/ace/other. It can give up points too quickly as a lone tank, (hello double delta), and doesn't handle like an ace. It'll run around holding points like a champ, but what's the point of that. ...

I also think a decent proportion of people don't particularly like flying it.

I obviously do.

Thing is, it is a difficult thing to price, it's difficult to foresee just how much it would affect the meta if they did shift more. So I can't even be sure of my own evaluation.

But I know some evil things I could put together at lower prices, and then go on to prove to a friend how it maybe is possibly really good if someone who was good used it and no, that wasn't very fun for you was it..

32 minutes ago, Wazat said:

I don't want to make Hiemfire explode, we all like him too much! <can we stop with this please 😒 >

But I am a bit pessimistic about FFG's intentions...

To me their intentions are clear, make the game as balanced as possible while shaking things up at regular intervals. Their implementation of said intentions is what is ticking me off.

36 minutes ago, Wazat said:

I keep wanting to run something like this but I know it's doomed.

• Alpha Squadron Pilot
• 3x Saber Squadron Pilot with Crack Shot
• Howlrunner with Elusive

I have flown 5x alphas/sabers with some success, but boxing them around howlrunner is a recipe for disaster. They need to be able to move independently. But without the force multiplier on their attacks, they struggle to bring anything down. And once they're up against aces, they really struggle to land hits on foes and avoid shallow, meaningless deaths after having accomplished very little.

Give go?:

Turr Phennir (44)
Predator (2)

Saber Squadron Ace (40)
Predator (2)

Saber Squadron Ace (40)
Predator (2)

Academy Pilot (23)

Academy Pilot (23)

Academy Pilot (23)
Total: 199

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

SMALL BASE FORCE USERS ARE STILL TOO CHEAP!

UP UP UP!

13 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

You did drop Rex by 1. He was fine at 84. He's made the others look expensive now, but his offence > cost is fine. He is actually very good for 81 and right on the margin for wingmates/tech.

You're right. I misspoke. I highly doubt 1 point would make him a monster though. It might make him a little more playable.

4 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

Imo, Defenders have been dropping since the start for no real reason. It's a weird ship. None of the changes have particularly impacted how I view it or use it. But I do know it's good, and if they keep dropping it, I'm picking up some new dangerous bits and bobs every time. It won't be long before I'm asked to never bring it to casual night

I still think the only reason you don't see more of them is because it's such a weird ship. It's expensive without really being a defined tank/ace/other. It can give up points too quickly as a lone tank, (hello double delta), and doesn't handle like an ace. It'll run around holding points like a champ, but what's the point of that. ...

I disagree. The problem is that it doesn't have enough damage output to build a 2-ship or 2-ship-and-filler list around it. None of the Defenders can deal 84 points worth of damage. The TIE Defender excels in the endgame, 1v1, but it actually runs out of tokens and luck pretty quickly against multiple 3-dice attacks, and it especially suffers versus 4-dice attacks from ordnance, Ghosts, or R1 shots. 3-dice swarms make major problems, Rebel Beef wins the damage race, and Jedi fly circles around most. They're tanky, but they're not especially hard-hitting, even Vessery.

I think Rexler should be at least a bit more than the other two. His ability is pretty much always on and deals damage, which is what Defenders need most. Meanwhile Vessery has to bring another ship to proc his ability, but it's more efficient to just use FCS, returning very similar offensive output for a low cost. You can fly him with an ordnance ship, but he's a nonbo with passive sensors, and higher initiative is tough to fit with him... It mostly doesn't work, mainly because of his cost. Ryad seems pretty nice, but the ability is actually pretty small. It's awesome because it takes the predictability out of the 4k. It's not because it only does that at I4. It's pretty cool with AS, but that turns off Full Throttle... And so on.

13 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

Onyx crosses no real boundaries dropped by 2, as far as I'm aware. It's just not a thing people go for at that price. Raw efficiency or helpful words and numbers is the thing, so I don't think it matters. You can use it, but it'll never really directly compare with the others in function.

The Onyx would be great if I4 were more relevant. But to be relevant, I4 has to be cheaper. Hence my cost decreases to the I4 pilots. Even moving last, it has the problem of getting blocked. Moving first it doesn't get any leverage out of its boost or barrel roll. It's cool that you can put Juke on two of these guys and still fit something else. With a decrease, it could almost be something halfway decent.

2 minutes ago, RStan said:

SMALL BASE FORCE USERS I5 PILOTS ARE STILL TOO CHEAP!

Fixed that for you

Anakin's not that bad. Neither is Windu.

Plo Koon and Obi-Wan are busted kinds of cheap. Raise them both 5. Put another 1 on Anakin maybe. Put another 2 on 7B maybe. Put another 1 on R2 maybe.

I think it won't be a problem after the next adjustment. Let's just not shout too loud or they could nerf them too hard.

But also too cheap are Ric, Duchess, Soontir, Vader, possibly Quiz, probably Thane and Luke, and several others.

6 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Fixed that for you

Anakin's not that bad. Neither is Windu.

Plo Koon and Obi-Wan are busted kinds of cheap. Raise them both 5. Put another 1 on Anakin maybe. Put another 2 on 7B maybe. Put another 1 on R2 maybe.

I think it won't be a problem after the next adjustment. Let's just not shout too loud or they could nerf them too hard.

Darth Vader, Inquisitors and Fifth Brother Gunner are major offenders in Imp faction (granted Inqs are more driven by Jendon these days).

Only ones that maybe okay are Luke, Kylo, Ahsoka Tano, Barriss Offee and Jedi Knights. Everyone else is necessary to consider going UP UP UP.

4 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

To me their intentions are clear, make the game as balanced as possible while shaking things up at regular intervals. Their implementation of said intentions is what is ticking me off.

Sorry, I don't mean to be obnoxious.

And yea, they're trying to do the right thing... as you say, the method leave something to be desired.

If FFG's goal is keeping the game balanced, they still have blind spots and occasional bad habits that they could afford to work on. FFG can be reactionary, which I suspect they're trying to fix. Other times they wield a shotgun in place of a scalpel, nerfing things globally when a more targeted nerf would have been more appropriate. They can also be neglectful, as much of scum has found out for many months. And their continued caution with things like jumpmasters doesn't mesh with their ambitious, experimental costing of newer ships, etc. If they're experimenting and willing to make mistakes (e.g. openly declaring that they're undercosting matchstick to see how that works out)... yea, okay I get that. But man do we have to wait a long time before those mistakes stop dominating the meta, or languishing in the shadows. We're actively playing the game week after week while they pick at it, and it kinda feels bad riding the losing end of an experiment.

In software and web development, you try to not do your experiments on the production server; you have a test environment for that. But maybe they need the whole community searching for exploits and settling into a meta to figure this stuff out. Sometimes what seems like a problem in low-volume tests works out fine in the wider community; other times something that seemed perfectly sane has a terrifying exploit that only the combined will of thousands of horny munchkins would have teased out.

I kinda like what my Friday game store did with the 230 point Scum vs 200 point Hyperspace mini-tournament. It was snarky and on the nose, and yet I think that's the kind of experiments we should be seeing more of. "Today, X ship/pilots are 2 points cheaper, and their red thingy is now white, all else is the same. You can play the underpowered stuff with a buff, or your normal builds. Go at it!". FFG should be sponsoring such game days as a regular activity, IMO. That would give them lots of data without tinkering with the game's core meta. Or at a minimum, the community should be doing days like this -- I'd welcome it.

20 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I disagree.

That's fair. You've had some different experiences with them to me. My successes with them have varied quite wildly in different, and sometimes inadvisably balanced squads. I've experienced most of what you have there at times and you're not wrong.

But I've definitely had what feel like undeserved and maybe slightly unpleasant wins more often with them than other squads, at times. There are quite a few cases where they can teeter over the edge.

I haven't stuck with anything long enough to stick my neck out too far though

I think my main feeling is that I think point reductions will either make no difference, or a bad one. When it's on form, it's not particularly pleasant to play against. So its almost not worth pushing them on from where they are, which is decent, but not horribly so. Safety 1st

10 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

But I've definitely had what feel like undeserved and maybe slightly unpleasant wins more often with them than other squads, at times. There are quite a few cases where they can teeter over the edge.

I really appreciate your tone! I've had the same kind of experience with other lists that are generally deemed not problematic (such as ID/FA YV-666s). The victory feels empty. It tends to make for a negative experience for your opponent when either:

1. You're moving their ships around or holding them still and they don't like it, or

2. Your ships are basically impossible to kill with their ships due to regen, passive mods, etc.

I have #1 happen a lot more than #2, but if the defenders are much cheaper, I could see #2 being a problem for them.

10 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

I think my main feeling is that I think point reductions will either make no difference, or a bad one. When it's on form, it's not particularly pleasant to play against. So its almost not worth pushing them on from where they are, which is decent, but not horribly so. Safety 1st

I kind of agree. I think balance is the top priority. But most of us have never seen Defenders be abusive in any situation, and they've been underutilized a lot. The same is true of generic interceptors. That's why I make the case for reducing their costs; just so we can see what happens. Best case scenario is we get slightly better balance. Worst case scenario is they really come into the new meta. The only time we see stuff being really oppressive is if it is brand new, if it received a huge buff, or if it was already on the stronger side to start out with.

17 minutes ago, Wazat said:

I kinda like what my Friday game store did with the 230 point Scum vs 200 point Hyperspace mini-tournament. It was snarky and on the nose, and yet I think that's the kind of experiments we should be seeing more of. "Today, X ship/pilots are 2 points cheaper, and their red thingy is now white, all else is the same. You can play the underpowered stuff with a buff, or your normal builds. Go at it!". FFG should be sponsoring such game days as a regular activity, IMO. That would give them lots of data without tinkering with the game's core meta. Or at a minimum, the community should be doing days like this -- I'd welcome it.

I can't paste enough positive emojis to this.

More tinker try out periods would help. Maybe make them week or month long, see if that breaks anything, adjust back if necessary, or leave it if it worked out.

Cool

4 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I've had the same kind of experience with other lists that are generally deemed not problematic, usually control-based lists. The victory feels empty. It tends to make for a negative experience for your opponent

I like finding ways to do this that make my opponent laugh, these days

40 minutes ago, Wazat said:

FFG should be sponsoring such game days as a regular activity, IMO. That would give them lots of data

It takes thousands of players months to sort out what's good

9 hours ago, gamblertuba said:

You literally cannot stop the force. Unless your opponent fails to roll a focus result, the force is beneficial every. single. turn. I'm not saying it's bad for the game in the way that I believe regen and tractor mechanics are but it should durn well be costed appropriately.

You can stop the Force. There are 2 "anti" force pilots in the game atm, Lt Kestal and Midnight. Yes neither are good enough right now but they prove that it's possible to create anti force abilities without any fundamental changes to the game.