Worlds didn't change my opinion on first order point costs. I feel our point costs are still accurate we just need more tools to work with.
I would prefer they reduce the cost of other talents as opposed to increasing the cost of viable talents like crack shot. Most of the talents are not worth the points. Increasing the few that do will just result in more empty talent slots.
Despite two of them making the World's final, I wouldn't complain if Z-95s dropped by a point or two.
8 minutes ago, Porkchop Express said:Despite two of them making the World's final, I wouldn't complain if Z-95s dropped by a point or two.
Agreed, and in general scum shouldn’t be paying points for empty illicit slots.
22/23 for both generics seems fair to me.
Also 22/23/25 for TIE/lns and up Howl to 45
0-pt talents: Ruthless
1-pt talents: Crack Shot, Marksmanship, Composure, Daredevil, Dedicated, Heroic, Treacherous.
2-pt talents: Predator, Intimidation, Fearless, Fanatical, Elusive, Debris Gambit
3-pt talents: Selfless, Saturation, Trick Shot.
The rest are fine. Maybe 1 off Juke and/or Snap but that’s highly debatable.
Edited by ClassicalMoser1 minute ago, ClassicalMoser said:Agreed, and in general scum shouldn’t be paying points for empty illicit slots.
22/23 for both generics seems fair to me.
Also 22/23/25 for TIE/lns and up Howl to 45
Same.
Though they better price new missiles correctly then. We have arguably only garbage missiles at this midpoint of 2nd ed. Literally in wave 5. It took until wave 8 for missiles to really become very powerful.
I love Zs but their main thing was missiles. Illicits also aren’t great right now.
I miss NDru too but no builds recently care for a lone wolf filler at i4 cuz i3 i4 sucks yet again.
7 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:Same.
Though they better price new missiles correctly then. We have arguably only garbage missiles at this midpoint of 2nd ed. Literally in wave 5. It took until wave 8 for missiles to really become very powerful.
I love Zs but their main thing was missiles. Illicits also aren’t great right now.
I miss NDru too but no builds recently care for a lone wolf filler at i4 cuz i3 i4 sucks yet again.
Missiles:
Prockets - 6
Barrage - 8
DBM - 6
Concussion - 4-5
Homing - 4
Clusters - 3
Ion - 3
Passive Sensors - 4-5
That looks like a much more interesting array of options now, doesn’t it?
Bonus:
Alpha Squadron Pilot - 33 + Talent
Saber Squadron Pilot - 39 + 2 Talents
Planetary Sentinel - 33
Black Squadron Scout - 35 + talent
The spam list still won’t be good, but they’ll be usable filler this way at least.
Edited by ClassicalMoser8 hours ago, Cerebrawl said:I saw somewhere that winning lists in EU, NA and worlds had an average Force score of 5.33. Force users are dominating and need to go up.
Yes but out of all those tournaments you also need to factor in how many people at each tournament also ran heavy force users.
Just because they are winning doesn't mean they are overpowered.
Let's say for example : If on average each tournament has a ratio of 40%-50% of people running some form for force heavy list, then the results are going to be skewed in favor of force user lists. You also have to factor in the skill level of the players that are winning the tournaments (not entirely sure how you do that) as in, are they generally among the stronger players in their local metas?
You also need to take into account that force users are also VERY popular with most people. I mean, who doesn't wanna be playing with Jedi and Sith users? It's arguably one of the biggest draws into the star wars universe in the first place.
I don't know how many people are running force user lists, but i know they are fun to fly and since I've started buying into republic forces, i have at least one force user in about 14 of my 15 lists so far
I honestly can't wait for more Sith users to enter the separatist side of the game. Force is an amazing mechanic. But it's not cheap to play with force users. They generally take up at least 1/3 of your list points. Which is already a heavy investment
5 hours ago, reqent said:Worlds didn't change my opinion on first order point costs. I feel our point costs are still accurate we just need more tools to work with.
I would prefer they reduce the cost of other talents as opposed to increasing the cost of viable talents like crack shot. Most of the talents are not worth the points. Increasing the few that do will just result in more empty talent slots.
Silencers not named Kylo still need to come down more, minor changes to some FO and UPS pilots could help too (eg. Static or Cardinal).
Generic /SF's could go up 1pt too.
57 minutes ago, Deffly said:Silencers not named Kylo still need to come down more, minor changes to some FO and UPS pilots could help too (eg. Static or Cardinal).
Generic /SF's could go up 1pt too.
I certainly wouldn't complain if they made those adjustments but if recoil or static gets cheaper would you run them? I would argue scorch and longshot are both better than static.
I really hope the new pilots from hotshots and aces are good. The TIE/ba looks really promising.
2 hours ago, Deffly said:Silencers not named Kylo still need to come down more, minor changes to some FO and UPS pilots could help too (eg. Static or Cardinal).
Generic /SF's could go up 1pt too.
Generic SFs are fine. I played against a list of 5x of them with fanatical and optics on each. It’s a good but not great list. I think it can continue to survive as is.
7 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:Also 22/23/25 for TIE/lns and up Howl to 45
Why does everyone seem to want this? The TIE swarm is probably the worst true swarm option in the competitive game right now, with both Sinker Swarm and Sear swarm outperforming it due to their superior flexibility. You pay for Howl's ability in the lack of options you have to gain a benefit from her. Unlike the other two, she can also easily die to the opening volley even with Iden next to her as 3 dice+ evade only goes so far.
****, I'd even take 5 optics /SF's over the howlswarm right now.
2 hours ago, Nyxen said:Why does everyone seem to want this? The TIE swarm is probably the worst true swarm option in the competitive game right now, with both Sinker Swarm and Sear swarm outperforming it due to their superior flexibility. You pay for Howl's ability in the lack of options you have to gain a benefit from her. Unlike the other two, she can also easily die to the opening volley even with Iden next to her as 3 dice+ evade only goes so far.
****, I'd even take 5 optics /SF's over the howlswarm right now.
Actually not everyone does.
There's this implied boogeymen that if those actually worlds level players got off their bored horse for a minute and decided to play 6 rounds of tie swarm they could dice the rest of us up messier than rebel salad.
In my frogging opinion, the lack of people playing the tie swarm, the lack of good results, the difficulty, and my own table experience playing with and against tie swarm lead me to believe its WAYYY over-hyped in strength than it really is.
A lot of people want generic ties in smaller numbers to be useful. Honestly, they feel overpriced at 23. I bet they're still not great at 22. But 21 scares me too. So a lot of people want 22 pt Ties.
But to get that, and get people to agree on this board and not seem like a coo-coo and have to go thru this long explanation as i am now, we say ok, let's up Howl to compensate, so that tie swarm doesn't get any better.
Imo, I think Howl should even go down. But someone will probably tie me to a stake and burn me at the edges for that heresy.
(I do definitely worry about Howl + 7 if points drop too much tho, I do believe that Howl + 7 goes against the Spirit of the Balance, which took away from us the I4+x4 Rebel Beef efficiency, the 6xTie Int efficiency, and the 5xBwings/Xwings for 200 points. Howl + 7 feels more like 6xTieInts type of power)
Okay. I made a new term ppl. Spirit of the Balance - When I4+x4 Rebel Beef efficiency, the 6xTie Int efficiency, and the 5xBwings/Xwings, 3xTieDefenders is stated as not ok for 200 points. Aka. the opposite of Audacious Generic Balance.
Edited by Blail BlergI'd rather reduce the cost of Iden than Howlrunner. Iden costs just as much right now and only contributes a 2-dice attack at middle-initiative and protects Howl from a single green-dice failure. It's good insurance to make the Howlswarm consistent enough for competition, but between them you're paying 80 points for two /lns with one force multiplier effect, leaving only 60% of the points budget for other ships to benefit from the multiplier.
8 minutes ago, Dasharr said:I'd rather reduce the cost of Iden than Howlrunner. Iden costs just as much right now and only contributes a 2-dice attack at middle-initiative and protects Howl from a single green-dice failure. It's good insurance to make the Howlswarm consistent enough for competition, but between them you're paying 80 points for two /lns with one force multiplier effect, leaving only 60% of the points budget for other ships to benefit from the multiplier.
Yeah, that too.
Does anyone actually have a lot of experience with Howl swarm and Iden and want to illuminate us on where the tipping point is?
5 hours ago, ScummyRebel said:Generic SFs are fine. I played against a list of 5x of them with fanatical and optics on each. It’s a good but not great list. I think it can continue to survive as is.
The 5sf Crack+AO with Backdraft is a better version. I'm also happy where they are, but I wouldn't be surprised if they go up 1pt.
12 hours ago, Porkchop Express said:Despite two of them making the World's final, I wouldn't complain if Z-95s dropped by a point or two.
And I wanted to come into the thread demanding Z-95s go up.
I mean, it was literally the only Rebel ship to survive the final game. (ok, it wouldn't have if the game continued, but still) so it must be over powered right. hehe
10 hours ago, executor said:Yes but out of all those tournaments you also need to factor in how many people at each tournament also ran heavy force users.
Just because they are winning doesn't mean they are overpowered.
Let's say for example : If on average each tournament has a ratio of 40%-50% of people running some form for force heavy list, then the results are going to be skewed in favor of force user lists. You also have to factor in the skill level of the players that are winning the tournaments (not entirely sure how you do that) as in, are they generally among the stronger players in their local metas?
If, for example 40%-50% of people are running force heavy lists it kinda just proves the point doesn't it?
Zs at 22. ❤️
15 hours ago, Wazat said:I like the 2 kimos and 3 kihraxz list. That's solid firepower and health, and though you're not depending on bullseyes, as you say, when they do land they land hard . A wise ace player knows better than to fall in a bullseye and will actually spend a lot of mental effort trying to squirm away from that threat. Pair that with the raw firepower of 5 3-dice ships and it's an encouraging list.
I think this is actually where the true value of low initiative bullseye abilities lie. Don't try to line it up, but point it at where the enemy ace wants to go. Have them spend actions boosting and rolling, getting stressed and missing shots. You may never actually get a bullseye shot, but you don't need to to get something out of it.
4 hours ago, Bort said:If, for example 40%-50% of people are running force heavy lists it kinda just proves the point doesn't it?
If their performance is in line with other factions once you weight things accordingly, no. If something is popular but doesn't perform better than other things, leave it alone.
Granted, I suspect that Jedi are actually a problem, but appeal to popularity is a fallacy nonetheless.
Edit: To elaborate, if Jedi make up such a large percentage of the field, we have a couple of things to consider
1) Have they performed disproportionately well?
1.a) Why?
2) If not, was this due to a metagame shift designed specifically to counter Jedi?
3) If not, what other factors could explain the Jedis' popularity?
3.a) People really like the Clone Wars?
3.b) People really enjoy their mechanics
3.c) Are they easy to use?
Edited by SquarkIt's not just Jedi either, Empire is another big offender, and not only on pilots, as they have a bunch of force adding crew/gunner upgrades, fifth brother, seventh sister, Vader, Palpatine.
Case in point: worlds winner: Vader, Grand inquisitor, and Whisper with fifth brother.
It's unconditional dice modifiers, which 2.0 was supposed to minimize, and it's powerful, and just generally too cheap. Conditional modifiers are often more expensive(!)
38 minutes ago, Squark said:To elaborate, if Jedi make up such a large percentage of the field, we have a couple of things to consider
1) Have they performed disproportionately well?
1.a) Why?
2) If not, was this due to a metagame shift designed specifically to counter Jedi?
3) If not, what other factors could explain the Jedis' popularity?
3.a) People really like the Clone Wars?
3.b) People really enjoy their mechanics
3.c) Are they easy to use?
1. Not significantly disproportionate IMO. Maybe a slight uptick, but that could be the player base as well. Notice they were nowhere to be found in top 4 at worlds and only a few were top 16.
2. I don’t think there was much anti-jedi tech out there at worlds. At least, not specifically - there were anti-ace builds but they impacted non force aces just as much.
3 a-c. Clone Wars is a new era for xwing, which means the models are shinier and newer toys to play with. Some people naturally gravitate to playing with their new toys. Some people really like the era (if I got to pick between clone wars tv series or the sequel trilogy, the CW is winning every single time, just a more interesting era to me).
They are easier to use than other aces, because the force helps mitigate some of the pitfalls they could run into if they were another ace. That said, high level ace play is not that easy regardless so it’s not “easy mode” per se. certainly not easy mode like the double torpedo Jumpmaster **** of the late days of 1.0. Some people may enjoy the game mechanics, sure.
So, I guess my thinking is they’re popular because they are easier to play than most Imperial aces and offer “entry level” ace wing play combined with new shiny toy syndrome. There hasn’t been a new ace to play with since the Jedi release except for Ric and Sun Fac - and Ric turns up a lot in Jedi lists and Sun is a much higher skill ace than Jedi.
At LCQ and worlds I flew an ace + beef mix, including to no one’s surprise Kenobi and Ric. I picked them because I really like Kenobi’s action economy with the ship ability (and occasionally his pilot ability in a jam) and Ric made it in because I couldn’t fit a second 7b in the list next to 3x torrents, which were there to be a beef wall on first round engagement or strategic blockers for other match ups. At no point did I say “yup this is broken so I should play it” - it was a faction I like, with a named pilot I like, and offered a mixed bag of tricks dependent on match up. I didn’t go far up the rankings in day 1, but it was my first worlds run so I’m happy about it.
Honestly? I think Anakin is a bit too expensive right now. Which makes him less likely to make my lists unless I really want to try the I6 Jedi. If ffg disagrees with me, fine I’ll continue to not use him much. I don’t think the Jedi as a whole are overly broken, because if you force them to burn their charges up, they become very vulnerable. Especially in the CLT config.
I understand how frustrating it is to go against one with the regen at a high level event (my first game was a loss to Obi Anakin both 7b r2 with a naked torrent for filler) but I can’t see them being more expensive without being unplayable in any other configuration with other ships, such as the variant I used.
Proposition: Many force using pilots are not paying enough for their force charges. Force is unblockable, uncrit-able, flexible, every-turn, passive modification. It is incredibly powerful. Dice modification has always been crucial and Force is arguably the most useful form of dice modification available in second edition. Force using crew have been priced accordingly. I argue that many force using pilots have not been priced correctly.
Example 1: Baron of the Empire (32) and Generic Inquisitor (35)
I'll admit that the Barons might be a little too expensive but three points for a Force? If they added a "Force Sensitive" Elite Pilot Talent card that added a force charge, how much would you pay for that? I dunno, but it sure-as-shooting is more than three freaking points.
Example 2: Dinee (38) and Baby Ani (41)
See example 1.
Example 3: Ahsoka (47), Obi (47), and Mace (45)
Ahsoka is #228 on metawing. Mace is #52. Obi-Wan is #2. Obviously, initiative matters, but that third force charge is YUUGE. How about a force talent "In Tune with the Force" that added another force charge. How much would you pay for that?
Example 4: Blackout (63) and Kylo (76)
Same initiative. Pilot abilities that are both kinda meh. 13 points looks like a lot but performance would show that Kylo is a much, much more solid option.
Counter examples?
You can accuse me of cherry-picking examples, ignoring Initiative, or undervaluing pilot abilities etc. But I think that FFG needs to take a very close look at how many points are being paid to add force charges to a pilot. That first force charge needs to pay a premium cost. Moving up from 1 force charge to 2 (or 2 to 3) needs to be expensive as well.
Force is good. It's even gooder when paired with:
22 minutes ago, ScummyRebel said:2. I don’t think there was much anti-jedi tech out there at worlds. At least, not specifically - there were anti-ace builds but they impacted non force aces just as much.
I'd be fascinated to hear what ant-Jedi tech you expected to see. Ion shuts down FTC but that's it.
Force is
You literally cannot stop the force. Unless your opponent fails to roll a focus result, the force is beneficial every. single. turn. I'm not saying it's bad for the game in the way that I believe regen and tractor mechanics are but it should durn well be costed appropriately.
8 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:I'd be fascinated to hear what ant-Jedi tech you expected to see. Ion shuts down FTC but that's it.
Force is
- stress immune
- bump immune
- crit immune
- ion immune
You literally cannot stop the force. Unless your opponent fails to roll a focus result, the force is beneficial every. single. turn. I'm not saying it's bad for the game in the way that I believe regen and tractor mechanics are but it should durn well be costed appropriately.
Well, ion shutting down FTC is pretty powerful tech to be honest.
The problem is that Force is a limited resource. Focus firing down on it will deplete it, and then it’s no different than any other ship next turn (Luke Skywalker excepted, but his chassis makes it less bad because he has less ways to use his Force outside of dice mods).
If it was costed too much more, it would be unplayable. Period. As I noted, I already think Anakin is borderline on the cost matrix. I know some folks make him work still: good for them. Jacking up the force because it happened to be out in quantity at worlds is silly. Only one top 4 list had force users.
Honestly, I feel like you are overvaluing what it can do. It’s most powerful aspect is in FTC, which has a hard counter.
9 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:A lot of people want generic ties in smaller numbers to be useful. Honestly, they feel overpriced at 23. I bet they're still not great at 22. But 21 scares me too. So a lot of people want 22 pt Ties.
But to get that, and get people to agree on this board and not seem like a coo-coo and have to go thru this long explanation as i am now, we say ok, let's up Howl to compensate, so that tie swarm doesn't get any better.
Imo, I think Howl should even go down. But someone will probably tie me to a stake and burn me at the edges for that heresy.
7 hours ago, Dasharr said:I'd rather reduce the cost of Iden than Howlrunner. Iden costs just as much right now and only contributes a 2-dice attack at middle-initiative and protects Howl from a single green-dice failure. It's good insurance to make the Howlswarm consistent enough for competition, but between them you're paying 80 points for two /lns with one force multiplier effect, leaving only 60% of the points budget for other ships to benefit from the multiplier.
Pretty much this. Here's my reasoning: Pretty much every swarm with Howl is quite decent (not necessarily top-tier like vulture swarms, but quite decent). ANY Imperial swarm without Howl or Jonus is pretty much never seen. Add Sloane and Jendon to that list and it gets awfully close to 100%. Can you think of a swarm that didn't use Howl, Sloane, Jonus, or Jendon?
So my reasoning is that Howl should go up by a fair amount. I mean just look at what they did to Drea Renthal! Another 3-5 points won't kill her. On the other hand, I do believe that Iden should come down by at least almost as much, if not quite as much. I'd like to see Iden ever actually taken without Howlrunner for once. I've never seen it so far because the only value Iden has is in I4 and in protecting your extremely valuable and points-heavy target.
Let's say Howl up to 45, Iden down to 36. That's much more appealing now, isn't it? Especially with generics at 22, 23, 24/25?
The empire is supposed to have really good filler options, but it... kind of doesn't. The generics are just less points-efficient than the named pilots in all cases except the v1 and probably the bomber. The striker is pretty good but I'm not seeing it much for some reason, largely because Duchess is 4 points underpriced. There's no I1 with a talent, and the blockers are too variance-prone for what they do, unlike Torrents.
9 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:Okay. I made a new term ppl. Spirit of the Balance - When I4+x4 Rebel Beef efficiency, the 6xTie Int efficiency, and the 5xBwings/Xwings, 3xTieDefenders is stated as not ok for 200 points. Aka. the opposite of Audacious Generic Balance.
I will say that I disagree here. I think 46-48 points is the right cost for most I4 Rebels and 33 points is the right cost for I1 Tie Interceptors (and maybe strikers if Interceptors get another talent slot) outside the context of a spam list, because spam lists are always jank anyway. I don't think I would feel quite the same about 40 point X-Wing and B-Wing generics. The Kihraxz is really good at 38 points, and I think the X-Wing is at least 2 points better. I could be proven wrong.
Let's look at the X-Wing for example. My model spits out something like:
CAZ - 41
Blue Squadron Escort - 41
Red Squadron Veteran - 42
Edrio Two Tubes - 43
Leevan Tenza - 44
Jek Porkins - 45
Kullbee Sperado - 46
Garven Dreis - 47
Biggs Darklighter - 48
Thane Kyrell - 49
Wedge Antilles - 55
Luke Skywalker - 63
I so wish this was about the way a chassis was priced. Note how small the tweaks really are, but it balances out the actual value of what each pilot has the potential to bring to the table.
Similarly, 66 is almost certainly too cheap for a TIE Defender. They're awfully close to the sweet spot right now and I think you underestimate what another point or two could do for what fits into a list with them. Granted the I4 named pilots are criminally overpriced, but I think the I1 is very very close to balanced already. My costs would go probably more like:
Delta Squadron Pilot - 68
Onyx Squadron Ace - 74
Countess Ryad - 76
Colonel Vessery - 79
Rexler Brath - 80
Edited by ClassicalMoser