4 hours ago, Wazat said:

As long as you're joking, you forgot to the cost of Fel's Wrath.

In my experience, TIE Interceptor swarms are great fun, but they're Zerglings. If you can kill even one, you sharply drop their power output, and usually you can kill more than one in an exchange. That many red dice can do some harm, but they're usually relying on their tokens for defense instead of offense because of their rock-bottom init. It's possible a 6th would be trouble but I'd have to see it actually perform. I'd be more interested in how many I can shove into a fleet with Howlrunner; that's when a swarm of 3-dice generics becomes really scary. If the opponent's ships fail to remove howl, they're losing something valuable on that first exchange.

Assuming 32 point alphas and a 40-point Howl, you're looking at 5 interceptors and howl. That's when things get scary.

I've heard ppl say generic ties should go down to 22, and howl up (idk, if completely up to compensate, like up to 46) but imo 40 already seems high for Howl personally.

Frankly I don't see that many ppl winning with Howl + generics, nor Howl 6.

Good point about Howl tho.

Basically tho, Howl + 5 Ints would have worse longevity than the swarm already, which as you've noted is generally its greatest weakness.

The seeming uselessness of I3 and I4 still bothers me. The question that haunts and haunts.

Wish this mechanic had more nuance to provide more interest to the skill gap.

2 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

The seeming uselessness of I3 and I4 still bothers me. The question that haunts and haunts.

Wish this mechanic had more nuance to provide more interest to the skill gap.

I agree.

A possible bonus for them might be a Squadron Title, whereby you can designate one generic per turn to activate and engage at a higher and a different generic at a lower initiative value. Means you'd have to fly at least 2 generics.

In theory, you balance mid I by giving them better pilot abilities than higher I

Unfortunately, only the clones seemed to have grasped this concept (and largely because freaking oddball has spread like the pox)

I'd argue Mace and Lumy also qualify, but Lumy is definitely a tier below due to two instead of three force

4 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

In theory, you balance mid I by giving them better pilot abilities than higher I

Unfortunately, only the clones seemed to have grasped this concept (and largely because freaking oddball has spread like the pox)

I'd argue Mace and Lumy also qualify, but Lumy is definitely a tier below due to two instead of three force

Mace, Lumi, Ahsoka, Saesee are all very reasonably good abilities. But there's really no quality control to ensure that those abilities truly stand up to the exceptional power of high init I5 I6. Its all arbitrary and qualitative, and I'd argue its not working.

It also creates what I call a "sad design divide": because nothing else works, you simply pit one quality against another in an entirely arbitrary way until you get some semblance of balance, even though there's no serious quantitative measure of either issue. In this case, you balance supposed super efficiency of these super abilities against the super efficacy of high Init/reposition. Pure efficiency Power vs board state knowledge. Trust me, this is a sad state of affairs and has historically failed time and time again with other games like Magic and Starcraft.

Generally, also, I think the Init/PS concept needs to be looked at once again to somehow make advantages gained by paying for those mid inits more pronounced. atm the issue is vs I5, I4 is literally just as bad as I2. But then you say, yes but the I4 gets to go after I1-3 stuff in the opponents list! The problem is generally, this incomplete board state info is not nearly as useful as it seems, and history has shown that to a very high degree.

6 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

I'd argue Mace and Lumy also qualify, but Lumy is definitely a tier below due to two instead of three force

If you ask me they were 'way' too liberal with 3 Force. the only pilot that should have 3 force natively is Darth Vader (yes, not even Anakin).

I want to see:

I5 UP UP UP

I3-4 DOWN

Jedi UP UP (PLO and Obi are bonkers)

YT-2400 DOOWWNN

Scum everything: down 1-2 pts

Missiles: down 1-2 points

Passive Sensors: Up 1

Trajectory Simulator: Down 4

Bonus round: pipe dream!

R2 unchanged (the Jedi, not the regen, are underpriced. Nerfing R2 makes it useless on X-Wings)

R5 down to 3

Double-Talent Interceptors (if we can’t have them at reasonable costs, at least make them better).

Absolute Fantasy:

Howlrunner: 45 (She’s a force multiplier)

Iden: 37 (She’s not and I’d like to see her without Howl)

Academy: 22, Obsidian: 23, Black: 25

Alpha: 33, Saber: 38

Sentinel: 34, Scout: 36

Baron: 30, Inquisitor: 36

Scimitar: 30, Gamma: 31

Soontir: 55

Duchess: 45

Vader: 70

On 10/12/2019 at 12:21 PM, Blail Blerg said:

Generally, also, I think the Init/PS concept needs to be looked at once again to somehow make advantages gained by paying for those mid inits more pronounced. atm the issue is vs I5, I4 is literally just as bad as I2. But then you say, yes but the I4 gets to go after I1-3 stuff in the opponents list! The problem is generally, this incomplete board state info is not nearly as useful as it seems, and history has shown that to a very high degree.

Honestly they have the flexibility and granularity to do this through costing. They’ve just been reluctant up to this point because they “want the iconic pilots to be good”.

For the sake of gameplay, initiative scaling should be way more exponential than linear.

say we could have 6 generic TIE/lns at all initiatives. The devs would probably price them:

23, 24, 26, 28, 30, 33

I would price them:

22, 23, 24, 26, 30, 36

or something more like that. All initiatives really can be viable. The problem is that specifically I5 is now and always has been underpriced while I4 has always been too expensive. Boba Fett and Fenn Rau are an excellent reference point. The devs just have no consistency on the matter.

If it’s 4 points more to move after the I3s, I’d just leave it on the table. If it’s just one or two points, it becomes a much more interesting choice and depends more on what I’m wanting specifically than just what’s “correct “.

Stuff I hope to become more expensive:

Anakin (Delta 7): 62 -> 65. His ships ability and his pilot ability make him a better version of Vader, with a much better dial and better ability (in his X1). Most lists that I played against had also an stupid high INI-bid.

Obi Wan (Delta 7): 47 -> 50. For 47 points he is just a steal. They dropped him too much in the last update.

U-Wings: all +2 up! Destroys that ugly Cassian, Benthic, 2x Blue Squadron list.

Point Reductions (only empire because i did not play anything else in the last 6 months):

X1: Generics and Ved Voslo down by 2 points. For Voslo there is just no use with his IN4. He should be cheaper to see some use. Mareek and Vader are in a good spot.

V1: Seventh Sister 43->41, she is just too expensive in comparsion to the generic INQ (or are these maybe too cheap?), her ability is not really that great because you have to spend 2 force...

Turr Phenirr: 44 -> 41, he is a fun ship but always outpiloted by the higher IN-Pilots that are far too common. Make him cheaper that he is a nice filler and strenghten the IN 4 group!

4 hours ago, beardxofxdeath said:

V1: Seventh Sister 43->41, she is just too expensive in comparsion to the generic INQ (or are these maybe too cheap?), her ability is not really that great because you have to spend 2 force...

Turr Phenirr: 44 -> 41, he is a fun ship but always outpiloted by the higher IN-Pilots that are far too common. Make him cheaper that he is a nice filler and strenghten the IN 4 group!

Turr, agreed. By the time you give him an upgrade or 2, there is not a huge gap to naked Soontir.

7th Sis. Not agreed. I think generic Inqs are marginally too cheap, maybe 2pt rise is balanced for them. Her ability is actually super good, having to spend 2 force keeps it from being brokenly good. I used to feel she was a bargain at 46 with no upgrades.

1 hour ago, Cuz05 said:

7th Sis. Not agreed. I think generic Inqs are marginally too cheap, maybe 2pt rise is balanced for them. Her ability is actually super good, having to spend 2 force keeps it from being brokenly good. I used to feel she was a bargain at 46 with no upgrades.

Can you explain? Admittedly, I didn't try using her, but the ability seems situational to the point where you maybe use it once a game if you need to spend a force for defense or so. Even if Inquisitors were 37 points instead of 35, that's still 6 points for a point of Initiative, a force token and the ability. With FCS and Sense or Hate, she costs ~50 points and only has 2 red dice.

2 hours ago, Tobbert said:

Can you explain? Admittedly, I didn't try using her, but the ability seems situational to the point where you maybe use it once a game if you need to spend a force for defense or so. Even if Inquisitors were 37 points instead of 35, that's still 6 points for a point of Initiative, a force token and the ability. With FCS and Sense or Hate, she costs ~50 points and only has 2 red dice.

She gets free crack shot every other turn, without the bullseye requirement. Her dial and linked actions are superb for fancy-knife-fighting and at I4 she totally owns all generics and low-I Pilots for a small fraction of your list.

Inquisitors in general have a fantastic action economy and the force is really just a bonus for them. Seventh sister specifically mitigates the biggest downside which is the two primary. Her ability can cut through almost any defense and over the course of the game will deal quite a lot of damage in 1s and 2s.

The key is to keep her cheap, as in basically naked. The more you invest, the less mileage you’re likely to get for your money.

40 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

She gets free crack shot every other turn, without the bullseye requirement. Her dial and linked actions are superb for fancy-knife-fighting and at I4 she totally owns all generics and low-I Pilots for a small fraction of your list.

Inquisitors in general have a fantastic action economy and the force is really just a bonus for them. Seventh sister specifically mitigates the biggest downside which is the two primary. Her ability can cut through almost any defense and over the course of the game will deal quite a lot of damage in 1s and 2s.

The key is to keep her cheap, as in basically naked. The more you invest, the less mileage you’re likely to get for your money.

This.

I found I didn't use her ability an awful lot, maybe 2 or 3 times in an average game, but that's down to the squad. I've used her as a cheap, 3rd ace, where her job is to flank as fast as possible, leap into R1 and sow as much confusion and despair as possible. Basically using her more or less sacrificially, buying time and space for the big hitters and popping her ability at the most opportune moment for crucial damage.

It's a great ship though, I4 and 2 force is worth the extra investment in many cases. The ability is really an added bonus.

12 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Scum everything: down 1-2 pts

Missiles: down 1-2 points

Passive Sensors: Up 1

Trajectory Simulator: Down 4

Careful, getting close to 5 passive Sensor SFs with missiles.

Tragedy Simulator is also a problematic card.

3 minutes ago, Octarine-08 said:

Careful, getting close to 5 passive Sensor SFs with missiles.

Tragedy Simulator is also a problematic card.

5x PS SF missiles already exists in ion, cluster, and homing varieties.

But note that I’m increasing PS by the same amount as I’m decreasing Missiles. That means that these builds will be unchanged but missiles might become useful on A-Wings, Z-95s, Kihraxzes, etc. That’s the purpose here.

Trajsim was a huge problem at 3 points. At 10 it’s a huge waste. At 6 it would be an interesting option in the right situations. Maybe 7 if we want to be conservative.

I'm not sure if gunnerless TIE/SF swarms are still putting in work like people thought they would, but if their price is raised I hope they cut the SF gunner's cost down by the same amount to compensate.

If generic interceptors don't get something this time, I might cry

15 minutes ago, Effenhoog said:

If generic interceptors don't get something this time, I might cry

And when do we get more pilots? =(

Ciena Ree when???

I want my angry **x I mean duel in space Ciena vs Thane!

Now I love an Inquisitor, but I think they're at least 1 or 2 points undercosted atm. Missiles going down would mean they remain so, even if Inqs themselves did go up a little.

Personally think missiles are fine where they are*. The ships that need them to be cheaper are likely overcosted by that same margin.

*Except Ion, which are just plain rubbish whatever the cost.

Really? I think Proton Rockets could come down 1 point. (Even two, but I think there would be really darn good builds at 5pts)

1 hour ago, Blail Blerg said:

Really? I think Proton Rockets could come down 1 point. (Even two, but I think there would be really darn good builds at 5pts)

Actually forgot about Prockets, lol. So obviously they could drop. I think you're right that 5pt might be really darn good, 6 seems fair.

5 hours ago, Effenhoog said:

I'm not sure if gunnerless TIE/SF swarms are still putting in work like people thought they would, but if their price is raised I hope they cut the SF gunner's cost down by the same amount to compensate.

I don't hate that, and maybe the less-commonly-used Special Forces Gunner can come down by more than the price than the generics go up, if that happens.

Tournament performance is decent enough, too. They're #8 Archetype on Meta-Wing (Backdraft/Omegas + Crackshot variant does best). That's not necessarily "needs immediate nerfs" territory, certainly not Quad Phantom levels, but it wouldn't be the worst price adjustment FFG could make.

Mostly, I don't think they need to be cheaper than Resistance A-Wings in a structural/theoretical sense. The two ships are so close in function and power level that I think they ought to cost the same. It was good that they came down from the original 34 point price, but if they'd have come down to 33 points that probably would have been enough.

//

On the other hand, I think it's good for the game for there to be a few fairly wholesome lists like this which are pretty simple to play. Fly at stuff and shoot it. There's some subtlety to the finer points of the list (when to S-Loop is a great one--I think it's sooner than you'd expect), but it's nice for a few straightforward lists to be about as good as this.

Trajectory Simulator Down to 7.

Most everything Scum down 1 point, if not 2. I still feel like the title on the IG Aggressor should be free. If servo-motors are free, why not.

Hmm. Should agile gunner be... 3 points? Its a free action (that does result in higher efficiency theoretically with a better chance of attacking). It takes a lot of coordination.

Maybe not 2?

6 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Hmm. Should agile gunner be... 3 points? Its a free action (that does result in higher efficiency theoretically with a better chance of attacking). It takes a lot of coordination.

Maybe not 2?

It is a free non-action rotate, but its timing requires telegraphing your next move (unless you use it as a fake-out, which seems like a good idea occasionally). Since it's not an action, you can do it while stressed and if you rotated your arc earlier in the round.

I don't agree with 8 for something like the Jumpmaster, which would benefit from 3 quite a lot. But for things like Ion Kavil, other Ion Scurrgs/Y-Wings, and Runny-Strafey-Boys like the YT-2400/YT-1300(Han)/Decimator, etc... making that kind of efficiency super-cheap might be a bad idea. It frees up that all-important rotation action to spend on dice modification or reposition, and works even while stressed or banned from actions (e.g. ionized, crits, etc), and that's very useful.

I suspect it's broken-useful for some ships at 3 points, but I'd have to see some examples to know for sure. But being ionized off the table by a ship that will always have mods and always have its arc aligned... that could be ugly. And more dice mods for Dash Rendar or Resist/Rebel Han (not having to spend an action on rotation) might be bad too.

On the other hand, Resistance Han and the Jumpmaster could really use a non-stressful rotation.

I hate to say this and potentially mess with my favorite ship and one of my favorite lists, but the RZ-2 might need another look.

L’ulo is at a better place now, but since he doesn’t seem to show up anywhere, I think they were maybe a touch too aggressive on his points correction. Maybe a point or two down, maybe keep where he is for another cycle, see if it evens out. Right now, however, he’s the same cost as the standard Finn loadout, and I feel like right now Finn is the better choice (even with the change to strain).

Tallie, as much as I love her, is probably still a little too cheap. Yes, she has the most restricted ability, but you still take her for a super cheap I5, not her ability.

Greer has the best ability of the A-Wings, but is he really comparable to Tallie?

Zari’s ability is a little lackluster (how often does an I3 get blocked?), but he has one. So why is he the same cost as a Green Squadron?

If I’m being fair, here are where the points should be in my opinion:

Zari: 36

Greer: 37

Tallie: 38

L’ulo: 41

I don’t want them to go up, but I think we can all see that the costs on RZ-2’s are a little odd to say the least.