1 hour ago, Blail Blerg said:

I suspect the I1 is actually worth more like 46-48. I think it'd be fine as 4x. Not against spirit of balance.

The I4, maybe 51 if the I1 is 48. 4x I4s might be against spirit of balance. So I doubt below 51.

47 would be the Max I'd see it go down. 4x with AO would be just a bit too much IMO.

The I4's need to be 51pts min as 4 of them would just be too oppressive.

13 minutes ago, Deffly said:

47 would be the Max I'd see it go down. 4x with AO would be just a bit too much IMO.

The I4's need to be 51pts min as 4 of them would just be too oppressive.

True. I hadn't thought of that.

Okay. 47 and 51 then.

Much better than 51 and 58 now.

I feel like the up 2 points for starkiller base pilots wasn't super necessary... but I have a fond spot for them... Now they aren't used much.

SKB 58->56
Thanisson 62->60
Stridan 64->62
Tavson stays 64
Captain Cardinal 65->63?
Dormitz (idk lol)

I know one tie FO list made it past the cut, but still, it seems like they could go all down 1 point mostly even Scorch and Midnight?

FO 26->25
If normal Imp Tie fighter 23->22.

16 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

I feel like the up 2 points for starkiller base pilots wasn't super necessary... but I have a fond spot for them... Now they aren't used much.

SKB 58->56
Thanisson 62->60
Stridan 64->62
Tavson stays 64
Captain Cardinal 65->63?
Dormitz (idk lol)

I know one tie FO list made it past the cut, but still, it seems like they could go all down 1 point mostly even Scorch and Midnight?

FO 26->25
If normal Imp Tie fighter 23->22.

Agree on the UPS but not on the FO I1. There are a couple of FO pilots that need to go down but it's not one of them (Static, Malarus, Midnight).

Tavson could still go up one or two pts. I'd love to see Dormitz and HST be errataed (Dormitz to only work on Small and Medium bases, HST to be made Unique) and brought back to sensible points (62pts & 1pt respectively).

2 minutes ago, Deffly said:

Agree on the UPS but not on the FO I1. There are a couple of FO pilots that need to go down but it's not one of them (Static, Malarus, Midnight).

Tavson could still go up one or two pts. I'd love to see Dormitz and HST be errataed (Dormitz to only work on Small and Medium bases, HST to be made Unique) and brought back to sensible points (62pts & 1pt respectively).

Yeah.

I missed the chance to do the death 3 upsilon thing. Now I wish I hadn't missed it. : D

10 hours ago, Deffly said:

There are a couple of FO pilots that need to go down but it's not one of them (Static, Malarus, Midnight).

This one. I thing the generics, Scorch, Muse, and Longshot are actually quite fine. It'd be cool to see how a little swarm would do with Hux on Stridan, if both were a little more affordable.

Even a little swarm with Cardinal would be cool if he weren't costed stupidly.

And I want to make Dormitz work

Hmmm I guess what I'd what to see:

Imps:

Tie x1 besides Vader down a couple points

Delta Defenders 63

Onyx Defenders 71 (2 with passive sensors and crack =150)

Brath/Ryad/Vessery = 81/78/75

Tie Aggressors down 3 points to make up for the price hike on VTG, Turrets, and Barrage Rockets. Last drop was a kick in the twig and berries when they hiked up the cost of every tool they used.

Jerjerrod and Tua down slightly.

Rebels:

K-wings down in cost (not points related but give them a systems slot or title so they can shoot after slams like the Alpha class)

Auzitucks down in cost

Attack Shuttle down in cost

Fenn Rau 45

Rex 28

YT-2400 20 points off everyone

Scum:

Drea 40

Fangs down 4 points across the board

Guri/Xizor/Dalan down 4 points across the board

Not points related but a system slot for the Kimogila would be nice, as would torps and missiles being given back to the Scurgg.

FO:

Upsilons down a smidge, they got nerfed TOO MUCH last time. Especially Dormouse, he should be cheaper than Tavi.

HTD should be 5 points

General:

Barrage Rockets down

Proton Torps 10

Trajectory Simulator down

Snap Shot down

Inertial Dampeners 1

Electron Proton Bomb WAY DOWN like 7-8

Delayed Fuses 0

Only ones I've been flying enough to have an opinion worth any thing on. I've got seat time on plenty else but these were pretty common for awhile and unique enough that maybe not many have looked? I had a whole thread deep dive into these. And having just finished a charity tournament with them for the giggles where somebody (okay more than a few somebodies) basically mocked me for trying it at all, I feel maybe I should put up my hope/prediction/suggestion, or shut up. It's a two cents opinion piece, if you don't like it, move along, move along.

Ric Ollie -/-

Anakin -/-

Padme -3/41

Dinee -3/35

Handmaiden -6/38 , add Elite Skill slot

Bravo -5/29

Torrent Ace's -1

Passive Sensors +1

Half points is awarded as soon as a ship is half pointed. Regen can not reverse this.

Bid is scored to the opponent automatically outside of a tabled game

Tractor tokens have their entire entry in the RRG rewritten. Total rebuild of the effect. To oh, I don't know, something that's not just always an NPE that negates good flying? Anything that's actually like how they function on screen? Y'know, reasonable stuff. I'd rather my opponent just have the right to literally punch me in the kidney over the current effect 🙄 😆

Force limited to once per opportunity on modification, can't recover while stressed/strained. Points up 1 across board, including Annie, I just didn't put it in to double hit him.

Gas clouds, no change, FFG sends a polite get over it letter to the community bundled in the environments pack.

I think when they first popped up, people thought they'd be ion clouds. Which tbh I thought they SHOULD have been. But oh well.

16 hours ago, KingmanHighborn said:

Scum:

Drea 40

Fangs down 4 points across the board

Guri/Xizor/Dalan down 4 points across the board

Not points related but a system slot for the Kimogila would be nice, as would torps and missiles being given back to the Scurgg.

As a scum player:

Drea 40 probably isn't going to happen, but it would be nice if it dropped to 45 or something. The rest of the y-wings down 1 point.

Fangs are fairly reasonably priced. I'd drop Kad Solus to 52, Skull Squadron Trooper to 48 and Zealous Recruit to 42, and leave the rest as is.

Guri/Xizor/Dalan: Agreed. Only Guri sees play, and the pricing means she only shows up in fat builds because slim Guri is too expensive. Xizor/Dalan are overcosted as well as having pretty meh pilot abilities. I'd probably try Dalan at 50.

Kimogila does need something, points reduction would help, but so could a a system or tech slot, though honestly what it really needs is a config slot and a config that gives it boost, maybe at the cost of a hull?

M3-A needs a drop of about 2 points across the board, same with all Z95, and all Mining TIEs except Seevor(who's fine at 30), and the Quadrijets(3 points for Sarco Plank, who has no business costing more than Unkar Plutt).

Jumpmaster5k: talent slot to the scouts, and 4 points drop across the board, or give it a cheap dial-fixer.

YV-666: about 5 points off across the board.

YT-1300: Shave off 2 points across the board, maybe just 1 on Han.

Lancer: 4 points off.

Khiraxz: drop Viktor Hel by 2 and Graz by 1.

Scurgg: Free title.

16 hours ago, KingmanHighborn said:

Hmmm I guess what I'd what to see:

Imps:

Tie x1 besides Vader down a couple points

Delta Defenders 63

Onyx Defenders 71 (2 with passive sensors and crack =150)

Brath/Ryad/Vessery = 81/78/75

Tie Aggressors down 3 points to make up for the price hike on VTG, Turrets, and Barrage Rockets. Last drop was a kick in the twig and berries when they hiked up the cost of every tool they used.

Jerjerrod and Tua down slightly.

Rebels:

K-wings down in cost (not points related but give them a systems slot or title so they can shoot after slams like the Alpha class)

Auzitucks down in cost

Attack Shuttle down in cost

Fenn Rau 45

Rex 28

YT-2400 20 points off everyone

Scum:

Drea 40

Fangs down 4 points across the board

Guri/Xizor/Dalan down 4 points across the board

Not points related but a system slot for the Kimogila would be nice, as would torps and missiles being given back to the Scurgg.

FO:

Upsilons down a smidge, they got nerfed TOO MUCH last time. Especially Dormouse, he should be cheaper than Tavi.

HTD should be 5 points

General:

Barrage Rockets down

Proton Torps 10

Trajectory Simulator down

Snap Shot down

Inertial Dampeners 1

Electron Proton Bomb WAY DOWN like 7-8

Delayed Fuses 0

Too much too fast. This is exactly what’s been wrong with previous adjustments; changes are too big so we never settle into a true equilibrium.

This would shake up the meta, but we’d end up with a stronger sense of meta than before, and some things will be totally power creeped out.

5 things changed by 1 point has the same effect as one changed by 5, but with less drastic consequences if something goes wrong, and with more potential for variety in list-building. I’d rather see almost all changes by 1 or 2 points, and an absolute maximum of 5 (for cases like Dash or Rebel Fenn).

I'm curious what fleet people want for a 40-point Drea.

IMO Drea getting too much cheaper might just usher in some force-multiplied swarm that has to be nerfed later, or bring back the double-tapping Y-Wing or Scurrg lists. A 9-point drop to 40 doesn't seem likely.

14 hours ago, ForceSensitive said:

Half points is awarded as soon as a ship is half pointed. Regen can not reverse this.

Force limited to once per opportunity on modification, can't recover while stressed/strained. Points up 1 across board, including Annie, I just didn't put it in to double hit him.

Your post made you seem really defensive about being rebuked, so I'm a bit hesitant to give feedback, but I do like the idea behind these lines. I'm not sure whether they'd be good for the game in practice -- it'd need lots of real testing -- but it's some good out-of-the-box thinking rather than just points adjustments.

IMO a ship getting an irreversible "Half Points" condition card when at half health (so shield regen doesn't help once they cross the threshold) might take a lot of the glory out of shield regen builds, and I think jedi and others would be more open to trying other options than R2 if they couldn't use it to back out of half points after a rough round. Or instead it might just make them even more cagey, not wanting to risk enough damage to cross to half points so they favor dragging out the game and making only safe pot-shots until they hit time. I'm not sure if that's sustainable (it would be awful for both players, even if it works), or if it'd all crash out and compel them to try a different playstyle.

I like force having situations where it doesn't recover, like stress and strained. It also works well thematically since being distracted might cloud your connection with the force. FFG would have to make sure through testing that it's not too brutal a nerf. One use per opportunity is also pretty aggressive, and would have to be tested quite a lot as well. Maybe wouldn't do both together?

In addition to testing, we'd need to adjust force users' points down to compensate (an adjustment like that didn't happen for scum tractor users when tractored got nerfed, and we're not happy about it). And I don't want to over-nerf. I really don't want to be mean to force users, but I would like to explore options to make the force less of a dominant... uhh... force in the game. It should be present and useful, but perhaps not quite this much.

Force-reliant players will tell you any nerf would make the force "useless" and they'd never touch it again, but I think the result can be far more nuanced than that. I don't want to give force users the Scum treatment (no one wants the scum treatment, especially not scum), but I also think the way the feature works is negotiable. A mild or moderate errata to its rules may be way better than a points increase that makes many fleets unfeasible.

14 hours ago, ForceSensitive said:

Tractor tokens have their entire entry in the RRG rewritten. Total rebuild of the effect. To oh, I don't know, something that's not just always an NPE that negates good flying? Anything that's actually like how they function on screen? Y'know, reasonable stuff. I'd rather my opponent just have the right to literally punch me in the kidney over the current effect 🙄 😆

I want to make sure I'm reading right -- I had to read this a couple of times to make sure. You hate how tractored works right now, and you want the effect replaced completely to instead be like the movies, right?

The way it works on screen is it halts the ship's own movement (e.g. no dial, kinda like ionized) and slowly moves the ship toward the tractor user... I'd be like a combination of ionized and tractored: next round after becoming tractored, they skip their planning phase and instead of a maneuver, either barrel roll or move straight in the direction toward the tractor user, if able. (Direction must be toward the tractor user.) Or maybe they still place a dial, but their maneuver speed is always 2 speed slower, and/or increase the maneuver difficulty.

I'm not sure that would be good for the game, imo, as I haven't tested it and it's a pretty major change. FFG has already kicked tractor users in the teeth repeatedly, and I don't welcome them taking out the nerf-crowbar and going crazy on our spines next. The rewrite would have to be strategically interesting and fun, instead of just another "f*** you" to the people who love quadrijets and lancers.

It's nice to think up ideas like these, but the real work is in playtesting and adjusting until we have something that's appropriate for the game. I wonder what it would take to get a group together to do that kind of testing, and if we came up with something good, could we ever put it on FFG's radar?

6 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Too much too fast. This is exactly what’s been wrong with previous adjustments; changes are too big so we never settle into a true equilibrium.

This would shake up the meta, but we’d end up with a stronger sense of meta than before, and some things will be totally power creeped out.

5 things changed by 1 point has the same effect as one changed by 5, but with less drastic consequences if something goes wrong, and with more potential for variety in list-building. I’d rather see almost all changes by 1 or 2 points, and an absolute maximum of 5 (for cases like Dash or Rebel Fenn).

Maybe, it's just wish listing, I'm not a game designer, I'm just going off my own personal play experience and the experiences of the people I game with. There are a few things I think that are NEEDED for certain ships to get into the meta. (Dropping barrage rockets and VTG in points would seriously help the Tie Aggressor for example.)

As far as the meta shake up, I think the goal is more to achieve equilibrium but that's admittedly a tall order for FFG. All the ships I mentioned getting points drops are ships that NEED it.

As far as Rebel Fenn and Dash though... no they need BIG SWINGS to fix. They need AT LEAST ten points ripped off every YT-2400, 20 would put it in fair line with the other Rebel big ships. And Rebel Fenn at 45 would be very fair as well.

6 hours ago, Cerebrawl said:

As a scum player:

Drea 40 probably isn't going to happen, but it would be nice if it dropped to 45 or something. The rest of the y-wings down 1 point.

Fangs are fairly reasonably priced. I'd drop Kad Solus to 52, Skull Squadron Trooper to 48 and Zealous Recruit to 42, and leave the rest as is.

Guri/Xizor/Dalan: Agreed. Only Guri sees play, and the pricing means she only shows up in fat builds because slim Guri is too expensive. Xizor/Dalan are overcosted as well as having pretty meh pilot abilities. I'd probably try Dalan at 50.

Kimogila does need something, points reduction would help, but so could a a system or tech slot, though honestly what it really needs is a config slot and a config that gives it boost, maybe at the cost of a hull?

M3-A needs a drop of about 2 points across the board, same with all Z95, and all Mining TIEs except Seevor(who's fine at 30), and the Quadrijets(3 points for Sarco Plank, who has no business costing more than Unkar Plutt).

Jumpmaster5k: talent slot to the scouts, and 4 points drop across the board, or give it a cheap dial-fixer.

YV-666: about 5 points off across the board.

YT-1300: Shave off 2 points across the board, maybe just 1 on Han.

Lancer: 4 points off.

Khiraxz: drop Viktor Hel by 2 and Graz by 1.

Scurgg: Free title.

Maybe, but Drea shouldn't be more expensive then Kavil at the very least, and compared to Serissu and Howlrunner, her ability ONLY affect non unique so it's more limited. So I don't think it's that bad for her to be 40. But at the very least 1-2 points cheaper than Kavil is needed.

Fangs.....eh personal experience says they are such glass cannons and I HATE paying a premium for something that either needs to dance at range 3, or dive into range 1, cause if it gets caught at range 2 for ANY reason it'll get shredded. And no mod slot so it's very vulnerable. It's one of the things I'd like to see a discount on but wouldn't fight for cause OTHERS do better with it.

I don't think config is necessary, a system for Passive sensors makes the laughably low initiative on these things livable. Back in 1.0 with VI and Adaptability Dalan and Torani could actually ball out really well, but since those cards will *probably* never be seen again, it NEEDS a sensor to make what it's SUPPOSED to do (carry lots of torps and missiles and USE them on hapless targets.) As it stands, Torani is a gun fighter, or carries cluster missiles in a hope to trigger her ability twice. (Or snap...snaps an option too.) And Dalan... god Dalan got SHAFTED from his 1.0 version.... no... I'm not salty...not salty at all.... *whistles*

I think the Mining Guild Ties are fine as is. But I don't think they can lower the points on the Z or M3a anymore. Both are bare bones as a platform equal to a Tie Fighter, though the Z is a bit tougher and the M3a is a modular platform. NAMED pilots there's a case, but I think there's some upgrades out there now that make a lot the pilots better. Except N'dru, who should have been an I5...

Scrugg getting Havoc for free could be could, or getting something to give it reload could be nice. BUT.... IT SHOULD HAVE MISSILES AND TORPS!!!!! *ahem* anyways yeah. Good points all around.

3 hours ago, KingmanHighborn said:

Maybe, but Drea shouldn't be more expensive then Kavil at the very least, and compared to Serissu and Howlrunner, her ability ONLY affect non unique so it's more limited. So I don't think it's that bad for her to be 40. But at the very least 1-2 points cheaper than Kavil is needed.

And why shouldn't the pilot that can give her squad 5+ rerolls a turn be more expensive than the one which gives his squad 1 extra dice per turn?

As for the Howlie and Serissu comparison, Drea's effect may be weaker, but she is in a much, much tougher space frame. Howlie and Serissu can be sniped; it takes some pretty serious firepower to get rid of Drea. Sinker is arguably a better comparison.

8 hours ago, Cerebrawl said:

As a scum player:

Drea 40 probably isn't going to happen, but it would be nice if it dropped to 45 or something. The rest of the y-wings down 1 point.

Fangs are fairly reasonably priced. I'd drop Kad Solus to 52, Skull Squadron Trooper to 48 and Zealous Recruit to 42, and leave the rest as is.

Guri/Xizor/Dalan: Agreed. Only Guri sees play, and the pricing means she only shows up in fat builds because slim Guri is too expensive. Xizor/Dalan are overcosted as well as having pretty meh pilot abilities. I'd probably try Dalan at 50.

Kimogila does need something, points reduction would help, but so could a a system or tech slot, though honestly what it really needs is a config slot and a config that gives it boost, maybe at the cost of a hull?

M3-A needs a drop of about 2 points across the board, same with all Z95, and all Mining TIEs except Seevor(who's fine at 30), and the Quadrijets(3 points for Sarco Plank, who has no business costing more than Unkar Plutt).

Jumpmaster5k: talent slot to the scouts, and 4 points drop across the board, or give it a cheap dial-fixer.

YV-666: about 5 points off across the board.

YT-1300: Shave off 2 points across the board, maybe just 1 on Han.

Lancer: 4 points off.

Khiraxz: drop Viktor Hel by 2 and Graz by 1.

Scurgg: Free title.

Think the HWK needs a bit of love, all the pilots except Torkil are too expensive to use. I want Palob back, and considering everyone uses force users these days he should have a hefty discount.

On a similar note I’d like all Force using pilots and crew to be hit with at least a one point increase to prevent auto-inclusion.

Across the board, going up to I5 and I6 seems too cheap, especially for pilots with good abilities. Generics should be the most cost-effective in terms of raw stats, but that's not how it is for pilots like Wedge.

Scum needs a little love, especially the M-3A, Jumpmaster, and Kimogila. With the tractor beam changes the Quadrijet could afford to go down a point or two since the negative agility no longer stacks.

TIE Aggressor and Punisher could use a little help, too.

HWK:

Generic 28 (both Scum and Rebel) - still probably overcosted, but it's a good start

Dace 30

Torkil 32

Palob 34

Kyle 30

Roark 32

Jan Ors 36

Moldy Crow title 24

4 hours ago, KingmanHighborn said:

I think the Mining Guild Ties are fine as is. But I don't think they can lower the points on the Z or M3a anymore. Both are bare bones as a platform equal to a Tie Fighter, though the Z is a bit tougher and the M3a is a modular platform. NAMED pilots there's a case, but I think there's some upgrades out there now that make a lot the pilots better. Except N'dru, who should have been an I5...

Zeds and TIEs are cheaper for other factions, we're paying extra. They still hardly see play for any faction, I propose they go down to 22 across all factions. M3-A is definitely overpriced, 28 buy in for something that's basically a TIE with 1 shield, and that modular slot, and it should follow the rest down. It does not deserve being as expensive as an aggressor, and even aggressors are hardly flown.

On 10/7/2019 at 6:28 PM, Blail Blerg said:

basically: not audacious

I do not think that word means what you think it means

8 hours ago, Boreas Mun said:

Palob 34

No way. Ever. He still sees play at 40 and does okay. He most definitely doesn't need to go below 37. Don't you remember what he was like before?

14 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

No way. Ever. He still sees play at 40 and does okay. He most definitely doesn't need to go below 37. Don't you remember what he was like before?

I feel like in general people are forgetting there were reasons this ships got nerfed in the first place.

Take Drea for example, if she goes back down were back to a Drea Swarm.

Just now, Flurpy said:

I feel like in general people are forgetting there were reasons this ships got nerfed in the first place.

Take Drea for example, if she goes back down were back to a Drea Swarm.

In fairness, the previous poster upped Moldy Crow to 24.

Still, Palob is worth almost the full 40 even without the title. It only takes one arc.

11 hours ago, KingmanHighborn said:

Dropping barrage rockets and VTG in points would seriously help the Tie Aggressor for example.

But it would also bring back the problems with Y-Wings and TIE Bombers that we're so happy to have balanced out now. Each could go down maybe a point, certainly not more. Other changes would have to happen on the aggressor platform itself.

Really though, the main problem is the lack of gunner and turret options, and more so that the other missiles aren't viable on non-PS platforms. Homing, ion, cluster, concussion, they all need a point or two off. Then raise Passive Sensors. This would help out most of the suffering chassis; Z-95, Scyk, Kimogila, RZ-1, Punisher, named Torrents, etc. Currently missiles are only viable with passive sensors or high initiative, and most ships that have those have other ways of getting more dice or passive mods anyway.

39 minutes ago, Flurpy said:

I feel like in general people are forgetting there were reasons this ships got nerfed in the first place.

Take Drea for example, if she goes back down were back to a Drea Swarm.

Palob was nerfed before everyone switched to force users or swarms. He’s not really a problem now.

Drea swarms were never more efficient than droid swarms are now.

I don't know but data says that Palob is not worth 40 points. None HWK Pilot is worth playing without title, because no one is playing them.

Palob was played 413 times (in Metawing 2.0), 5 times without a title!

Torkil 168, 22 without title.

Jan Ors 159, 20.

Roark 60, 0!

Kyle 45, 0!