2 hours ago, Wazat said:

Yes. There are other examples of timing being outside of the dice modification steps but still counting as modification, such as Han Solo, Reinforce, etc. Spending a die result is dice modification even if it's moved outside of those steps. If they didn't mean spend, they'd say "remove" or "cancel".

Good point. I'm 99% sure that FFG weren't thinking about this interaction when they designed Blinded Pilot though.

2 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Your chances of finding diamonds are much better elsewhere,

I found these diamond boron missiles, does that count? More seriously, the TIE bomber seems fine to me. They are quite good at dropping proximity mines, and make excellent anti-ace filler when equipped with them.

2 hours ago, Revanur said:

Mostly minor tweaks and not over nerfing current lists out of the meta

What's wrong with nerfing current lists out of the meta? Changing lists and new metas are what makes the game interesting. I can understand not wanting to have your favourite ship nerfed to oblivion, because then you just can't play that ship, but not being able to fit an exceptionally powerful group of ships together is fine.

Even when it comes to nerfing individual ships, it can be sad to lose your favourite, but it's not all bad. I love flying starvipers, but I won't be sad if they go up a bit, because at the moment they are extremely efficient options in scum, and it's really constraining my list building. Many squads that I build can be made simply better by putting vipers in them, making many other ships dud choices.

I also won't be sad to see the end of the monstrosity that is seartek swarm .

I'm fully expecting the generic Vulture Droids to go up by a point each, and for TA-175 to go up to 8-10 points. You get a lot of toys in a Sear swarm right now.

Isn't that the point of them though? I mean, if you cost Vultures to the point of making swarms useless, you've all but ended the Seps. Their entire faction doctrine is swarms, with the odd named ship thrown in as a support or flanker.

10 minutes ago, NakedDex said:

Isn't that the point of them though? I mean, if you cost Vultures to the point of making swarms useless, you've all but ended the Seps. Their entire faction doctrine is swarms, with the odd named ship thrown in as a support or flanker.

Oh, for sure. I'm not opposed to the idea of 8 ship CIS swarms existing, I just think the Sear swarm as it currently stands is a **lot** of stuff packed into one list. The fact that it's the top list on MetaWing right now tends to support that.

If you bump TA-175 up to 10 points, and the basic Trade Federation Drone up to 20 points, you can still get 7 Trade Federation Drones and a Soulless One TA-175 Sear in at 195 points. That's still plenty of efficiency and lets you put Grappling Struts on most of the drones or a set of Discord Missiles or similar, but it cuts down the amount of options the list has to a more reasonable level.

Is the problem there not more Sear and his 175 buddy, rather than the droids though? I can understand 175 going up, but maybe Sear should be the one seeing a bump, over the droids.

6 minutes ago, NakedDex said:

Is the problem there not more Sear and his 175 buddy, rather than the droids though? I can understand 175 going up, but maybe Sear should be the one seeing a bump, over the droids.

I'd definitely be on board with Sear going up to 41-ish points to make him more of a choice when compared with Wat. I think TA-175 should be a lot closer to Kraken in terms of points - in 7-8 ship lists, it's probably just flat out better than Kraken in a lot of circumstances, particularly when paired with Sear who makes those extra Calculate tokens particularly meaningful.

That said, I think the Trade Federation Drones might be a little cheap at 19 points each. The fact you can get 7 of them in a list and still have 67 points spare for another ship is pretty significant. I wouldn't want to see them go up to anything more than 20 points, but they're extremely efficient as things stand.

3 hours ago, gadwag said:

What's wrong with nerfing current lists out of the meta? Changing lists and new metas are what makes the game interesting. I can understand not wanting to have your favourite ship nerfed to oblivion, because then you just can't play that ship, but not being able to fit an exceptionally powerful group of ships together is fine.

Even when it comes to nerfing individual ships, it can be sad to lose your favourite, but it's not all bad. I love flying starvipers, but I won't be sad if they go up a bit, because at the moment they are extremely efficient options in scum, and it's really constraining my list building. Many squads that I build can be made simply better by putting vipers in them, making many other ships dud choices.

I also won't be sad to see the end of the monstrosity that is seartek swarm .

I wouldn't want to know for sure that every update the best lists get over nerfed out of use. Hence I said minor tweaks. If parts of those lists go up with 1 or 2 points and not 5-10 the lists still need to drop in bid, upgrades or change a ship without making the ships in the list also useless in other lists.

I also dont think the meta game would become very balanced by over nerfing for the sake of a shakeup. Only changed to the next strongest thing only. I think weakening strong squads only a bit while at the same time enhancing the weaker stuff is more likely to reach a good status quo.

On your Starviper example:

I would love to see the next Scum is dead thread when that happens

1 hour ago, Jarval said:

I'd definitely be on board with Sear going up to 41-ish points to make him more of a choice when compared with Wat. I think TA-175 should be a lot closer to Kraken in terms of points - in 7-8 ship lists, it's probably just flat out better than Kraken in a lot of circumstances, particularly when paired with Sear who makes those extra Calculate tokens particularly meaningful.

That said, I think the Trade Federation Drones might be a little cheap at 19 points each. The fact you can get 7 of them in a list and still have 67 points spare for another ship is pretty significant. I wouldn't want to see them go up to anything more than 20 points, but they're extremely efficient as things stand.

I'd be on board for a 1 point increase in the Trade Feds if ESCs dropped a point, I think. Or maybe Discords instead of ESCs. They need to have a couple of tricks to remain interesting, I reckon.

9 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

NO IT ABSOLUTELY WOULDNT.

Making them fatter on points is a worse idea, they'll just be even badder. Adding more on top of an already overcosted 24 points? NO. Even if it was crackshot, the BEST talent, I'll tell you now, its not worth 35 points!!!!!

You have to drop the chassis cost.

Intimidation is really, really useful for blockers. I have a hard time taking A-Wings without it.

I definitely agree that chassis cost would be better though. 32 is probably around the right place for alphas with a talent slot. Compare to Mauler and Scourge, who have I5 but more situational 3-dice and less repositioning. Comes out more or less even IMO and they're sometimes considered overpriced (at least without the underpriced Howl).

9 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Its not competitive. Its not good either. And its in no way easy to play.

No one wants to experiment with them, cuz they're largely explored territory. Yes, theres still creative things, but its like 85-90% explored. Your chances of finding diamonds are much better elsewhere, and more fun too. They're not super fun either.

You sure? It pretty trivially beat 4 X-Wings almost every time. It's a lot of auto-damage AOE that can be stacked and stacked. I had turns where 2-3 ships were getting hit with 2-3 bombs each, before I shot at them. I haven't seen it played competitively so I can't definitively say it's not competitive. I assume it's not, but everyone assumed the rebel Z wasn't either before it took second at Worlds. Just because it's not played that doesn't mean it's not okay.

I don't think bombers are boring either. The TIE Bomber is my second favorite ship in the game only after the Interceptor. I do think that Barrage bombers are boring, but mainly because barrage rockets are boring in general. APT bombers are very interesting, and locking into range 1 isn't too hard even at low initiative. It's just the combined cost of everything they take to function that makes them somewhat poor. I still contend that Jendon with three Protorp bombers with Proton bombs could be more than a little decent, if Tomax, Rhymer, or something were playable as a closer, or if you could fit enough aggro to get far enough ahead before you need an endgame piece.

9 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

BOO. Heck no.

I can't listen to anyone on the 2400 who's never played it. Try it. It's easily fifteen points overpriced.

83 might be a reasonable price for Dash. 98 is emphatically not.

Walk through what you can do with him on a turn. The absolute maximum action economy you can end up with is:

• A barrel roll and a force, and a stress (and only one attack; have fun with blank dice)

• A focus and a force and two attacks (no reposition or rotate whatsoever, and only a calculate for first attack and all defenses)

• Two focus and a force and only one attack

• Two focus and two attacks (best combo yet, but comes in at a whopping 140 points!)

His offense is so much worse than Hera's, at 25 points more than her, that it's absolutely obscene. He has nearly no way of getting a 5th die (unless he invests another 22 points into Trick Shot, which is equally available to her), he can't double-tap any single target, ever, and his dice are rarely modded because of how thin his single actions are spread. He can't reinforce and has only 10 health, 6 of which is hull that blows up super fast (he doesn't have actions sitting around to flip crits with, and he doesn't have a crew slot free for Chewie or the like). Force is usually a poor investment in him as when you're chucking 4 dice, you'll have to mod more than one eyeball, and the only way to shoot twice requires focus anyway. The side effect is that he is blocked with absolutely trivial ease, removing 100% of his action economy.

He can't fight close range. At R1, he loses the trade against a Cartel Marauder or Blue Squadron Rookie. 140 points isn't on par with 41 points. You could fit three of them for that price, with which you can use one to block him and the other two to blow him up in 2 turns, pretty easily. He wants to run over rocks to get obstruction bonuses, but he can't land on them or he can't shoot. That makes positioning really, really difficult. Alternatively he can use Debris, but that doesn't sufficiently punish his opponents for following him through them. He only survives if he can keep distance and he has absolutely no equipment to do that; you just have to bank on your opponent being stupid. Anything with a 3-bank can always keep inside his R1 and wins the trade every time.

It's not just that he doesn't get 4 actions a turn, it's that he very frequently doesn't even get one, and he basically never gets the equivalent of two different actions. He has to choose between one rather poor reposition, and any mods. On a typical turn, you're faced with this choice:

• Barrel roll to R2, sacrificing all mods and your second attack, and ending up stressed, or

• Stay at R1 and focus, forfeiting all attacks because the enemy is outside your arc, or

• Rotate your turret, forfeiting all mods and extra attacks and getting only one unmodded 3-dice attack vs your opponent's focused 4-dice attack.

You're not winning this trade at all. And that's assuming the only ship your opponent has is a 41-point Cartel Marauder. Make it two ships and the options only get so much worse. Dash is a glass cannon, that also can't move. He's like a giant TIE Interceptor without boost (or afterburners) and with a red barrel roll. And Expert Handling means you don't get trick shot or lone wolf. There's just no action economy.

Show me ANY Dash build under the sun, and I'll give you a very simple hard counter for exactly half the points. I say this as someone who's fielded him 10+ times since the Roark/Dash nerf, and have pulled out one win, which was a very favorable matchup against a pretty inexperienced opponent. Don't disparage something you've never even seen on the table, let alone playing it yourself. He's not broken, he is interesting and fun to play and to play against, and he's obscenely overpriced.

Even if you don't like Dash for his rather silly ability, there's no justification on earth for the fact that you have to pay two points to "upgrade" from literal Rebel Han Solo to a generic Wild Space Fringer! How does this make sense to anyone in the world?

10 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

he is interesting and fun to play and to play against

I'd just like to disagree on that one point - I've never enjoyed playing against Dash

32 minutes ago, gadwag said:

I'd just like to disagree on that one point - I've never enjoyed playing against Dash

Have you ever played against him in 2.0? Roark/Han was stupid and doesn’t count; it would be broken on any chassis, he just made it worse.

The play style is somewhat like Vultures or MG TIEs, except more so. It’s kind of weird.

But only 1 action for 130-150 points is a tough deal.

45 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Have you ever played against him in 2.0? Roark/Han was stupid and doesn’t count; it would be broken on any chassis, he just made it worse.

The play style is somewhat like Vultures or MG TIEs, except more so. It’s kind of weird.

But only 1 action for 130-150 points is a tough deal.

No, no one has fielded Dash that I've seen since Roark combo days, but I was on the receiving end of that and it was awful. You said Dash made that combo even worse - I agree. He's in a weird spot where either he costs too much to be efficient or he becomes a nightmare sniper launching 5-die shots at r3 through the rocks (with obstacle cover, and removing stress/rocks as he moves through the obstacles)

3 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Have you ever played against him in 2.0? Roark/Han was stupid and doesn’t count; it would be broken on any chassis, he just made it worse.

Well, I have played against him without the Han/Roark nonsense, and while it was more tolerable, it wasn't by a lot.

You say he's like Mining TIEs or Vultures, and I must disagree vehemently with this statement. The only similarity is the cheating on rocks, but where the TIEs and Vultures have to actually come and fight, Dash just flies away and fires his endless supply of Proton Torpedoes. Games against him are less interesting by an order of magnitude.

So, no, Dash is still broken, he's not at all interesting or fun to play against (YMMV on how he feels to play with, but "toilet bowl and sling 4-dice and let the variance decide" is not my idea of an interesting game), and I'm pretty sure I don't want to live in a world where he isn't overpriced.

Dash with Trick Shot and Outrider was a monster in his prime (especially 1E, but also when he could double-tap, and even now in any casual game). Making him too cheap would be a mistake, one that would lead to him being heavily overcosted again. I'm not sure what the implications for 83 points would be, but I'm worried. A ship that can run away and/or strafe while nuking is always a potential concern and has to be priced carefully or it'll be terrible for the meta. Rebel Han has amazing rerolls that greatly extends his life and firepower as he runs away. Dash's trick is to fly straight through obstacles, gleefully ignoring the stress of debris and flying over asteroids that give his enemies fits, then firing through the same obstacle for great damage. That's pretty valuable, and it's the kind of ability that will explode if it's cheap enough to load with the right team.

You say he's overcosted and that may be entirely true . I don't see him anymore in competitive. The thing is, wildly dropping his price wouldn't be fun either. He's pricey for a reason, and people are suspicious of a deep discount because they remember. That's the pushback you're seeing. Even if he's overcosted right now, people prefer that over the risk of an efficient Dash.

I suspect the larger reason (beyond cost) we don't see dash so much is because Jedi and other aces are in vogue right now, and they have an easier time maneuvering into position to dodge args or get into the donut hole, etc. Jedi and Empire Aces are pretty efficient, as are some swarms. Any opponent that can play your game as well as you do or make you play theirs is trouble, and at current costs, Dash might struggle to respond because he needs allies. And as you said, cheap, efficient ships like k-fighters also do a decent job if they spread out to block and cover, instead of blindly chasing him; the meta strategy has gotten better at countering him. I think if his cost remained identical, but the meta shifted to favor those options less, he'd have a far easier time.

IMO, packing up to 140 points for a theoretical double attack out of both sides is a trap. Realistically that double-shot isn't happening. Instead, I'd invest in the core: Trick Shot, Outrider, and probably nothing else; leave those points for the team and bid. People realized Kylo was effective when they started throwing him into battle naked. Less is often more, and maybe shirtless Dash will have as many screaming fans as shirtless kylo. I think a lighter build like this will be better prepared to fit into a list after the (likely mild) discount that's coming to Dash.

The other half is his wingmen, and right now Rebel doesn't have a lot of efficient ace options besides wedge at the moment. You need an ally who punishes foes for chasing Dash into his donut, and in turn Dash punishes foes who target the wingman. IMO a named T-65 like Wedge, Luke, or Thane is a fine choice. That leaves around 22 to 36-ish points to either split between them, or maybe toss in a filler blocker/support craft. If Dash went down 16 - 8 points, so his core build was 101 - 108 instead of 116, who would you fly with him? Would you pair him with Hera? Han Solo? Wedge? Jek and Jake? Dual b-wings or t-65s? Thane + Jake? I assume when you say 83 points you have a specific build in mind.

BTW I also wonder whether Han Solo would be a fun wingman in a casual list, doubling down on the obstacle investment. But I've never flown them together and it might not work well. Dash + Outrider + Trick Shot fits with a naked Han, with 2 points remaining for a bid or Lando, so it could be worth a laugh. But Han likes to fly fat... and no one touches him now that his handbrake has been disabled. If only there were points left for rigged cargo chute on both, to make your own obstacle field.

18 minutes ago, Wazat said:

But Han likes to fly fat... and no one touches him now that his handbrake has been disabled.

Han is still decent, and plenty of people are still flying him. He's still got access to things like Kanan and R2-D2.

19 minutes ago, Wazat said:

IMO, packing up to 140 points for a theoretical double attack out of both sides is a trap. Realistically that double-shot isn't happening. Instead, I'd invest in the core: Trick Shot, Outrider, and probably nothing else; leave those points for the team and bid.

This man knows how to list build. You could add some kind of crew in there, but I can't think of any really compelling options.

Now enough about Dash, I want FFG to drop points on the real fun obstacle ship: scum Han. He didn't deserve to be hurt by the trick shot increase, but honestly getting his ability to work well is such a chore that he may be beyond saving. RIP my favourite falcon

11 hours ago, gadwag said:

He's in a weird spot where either he costs too much to be efficient or he becomes a nightmare sniper launching 5-die shots at r3 through the rocks (with obstacle cover, and removing stress/rocks as he moves through the obstacles)

Hera can shoot 5-die shots at R3 through rocks too. Where's the problem with that? It takes crazy tons of setup and extremely good predicting of your opponent in general to make consistent Trick Shots pay off.

He plays differently. It's just true. Most ships want to avoid obstacles, he wants to run over them. It's sort of like most ships want to avoid stress but Braylen and Ten embrace it. Most ships want to stay out of their enemy's R1, but Ketsu, Fett, and Teroch love it. At least Vultures can shoot from on top of an Asteroid; when Dash lands there, you're 110-140-point gun is out of the game for the round (except he is getting shot at). To pull off an obstructed shot with Dash, you either need Debris/Gas (which doesn't give you much of an advantage) or you need to predict every enemy ship perfectly.

Roark/Han was abusive on any chassis. It also wasn't exactly winning competitions on Dash. If there was any other High-I rebel turret primary, it would have been equally horrific, possibly more so.

9 hours ago, DR4CO said:

Well, I have played against him without the Han/Roark nonsense, and while it was more tolerable, it wasn't by a lot.

You say he's like Mining TIEs or Vultures, and I must disagree vehemently with this statement. The only similarity is the cheating on rocks, but where the TIEs and Vultures have to actually come and fight, Dash just flies away and fires his endless supply of Proton Torpedoes. Games against him are less interesting by an order of magnitude.

Vultures and MG TIEs also have a lot of options Dash doesn't. They can block or flank, they get lots more actions and attack dice, and they can fire while sitting on rocks. It's true that any turret primary wants to kite; that's how they're designed, it's kind of the point. I will point out that the YT-2400 is horrific at running for any long period of time, which anyone who's used him can attest to. His fastest move is a 4 straight or a 3-turn. His barrel roll is red, leaving you totally modless, and he can only ever get one action per turn unless you bring a whole extra ship to coordinate him. 120-140 points for exactly one action is pretty bad.

Not only is he bad at running/kiting, when the opponent inevitably does manage to land R1, he gets the worse end of the deal against a single Cartel Marauder, and for his price, his opponent can easily bring 3 to bear. The only way he can avoid getting R1'd is to fly unpredictably (read: suboptimally), to predict his opponent, extremely well, or to fly over obstacles at every opportunity, which still doesn't reliably work.

His primary is also certainly not akin to Protorps. There's no auto crit and it doesn't deny range bonuses. There are also no mods as often as not; note that a focused 3-dice attack is actually better offense than an unmodded 4-dice attack. If he's getting mods he's not repositioning at all or rotating his turret, which means that the charges of extreme maneuverability and enormous coverage are also bunk. Unlike all the aces currently in the game, Dash has to decide whether to have his cake or eat it.

9 hours ago, DR4CO said:

I'm pretty sure I don't want to live in a world where he isn't overpriced.

A common sentiment, but one that runs contrary to game balance in general and is pretty sad for anyone who spent money on a 2400 in 1.0. I don't want to live in a world where he's underpriced, by any means. But I think there's a place for him between being absolute trash and being OP.

9 hours ago, Wazat said:

Dash with Trick Shot and Outrider was a monster in his prime (especially 1E, but also when he could double-tap, and even now in any casual game). Making him too cheap would be a mistake, one that would lead to him being heavily overcosted again. I'm not sure what the implications for 83 points would be, but I'm worried.

I agree it is a monster, in the same way Vader or Anakin is a monster now. And I do agree that taking him directly to 83 points would be a mistake. I'd start by dropping him to 90 or so, and see how he does then. Maybe that would be enough. I prefer smaller changes over longer periods of time. I was just flabbergasted that they didn't touch him at all in the last adjustment.

9 hours ago, Wazat said:

A ship that can run away and/or strafe while nuking is always a potential concern and has to be priced carefully or it'll be terrible for the meta. Rebel Han has amazing rerolls that greatly extends his life and firepower as he runs away. Dash's trick is to fly straight through obstacles, gleefully ignoring the stress of debris and flying over asteroids that give his enemies fits, then firing through the same obstacle for great damage. That's pretty valuable, and it's the kind of ability that will explode if it's cheap enough to load with the right team.

Also agreed. He is very tricky to fly, but he's very powerful when flown well. It's easy to trap him away from obstacles, corner him, or close to R1, unless the Dash player is very careful. I think a fully loaded Dash should still be upwards of 110 points; I just think 140 is too much.

9 hours ago, Wazat said:

You say he's overcosted and that may be entirely true . I don't see him anymore in competitive. The thing is, wildly dropping his price wouldn't be fun either. He's pricey for a reason, and people are suspicious of a deep discount because they remember. That's the pushback you're seeing. Even if he's overcosted right now, people prefer that over the risk of an efficient Dash.

Also perfectly fair. I should have clarified: While I think that mid-80s is a good price point for him, I'm not calling for him to be dropped there immediately by any means. I'd much rather see him sink into a happy place through gradual improvements.

9 hours ago, Wazat said:

I suspect the larger reason (beyond cost) we don't see dash so much is because Jedi and other aces are in vogue right now, and they have an easier time maneuvering into position to dodge args or get into the donut hole, etc. Jedi and Empire Aces are pretty efficient, as are some swarms. Any opponent that can play your game as well as you do or make you play theirs is trouble, and at current costs, Dash might struggle to respond because he needs allies. And as you said, cheap, efficient ships like k-fighters also do a decent job if they spread out to block and cover, instead of blindly chasing him; the meta strategy has gotten better at countering him. I think if his cost remained identical, but the meta shifted to favor those options less, he'd have a far easier time.

He might have an easier time, but regardless of the meta, any fast ship is a hard counter to him. Even a TIE/ln or a Phoenix Squadron A-Wing is trading 1:1 when they get inside his donut hole. Evenly matched for points against 5 of those, that's a pretty sad place for Dash. And honestly, struggling against both aces and swarms is a bit telling: Everything else is somewhere in between, and he would struggle against those just as much.

9 hours ago, Wazat said:

IMO, packing up to 140 points for a theoretical double attack out of both sides is a trap. Realistically that double-shot isn't happening. Instead, I'd invest in the core: Trick Shot, Outrider, and probably nothing else; leave those points for the team and bid. People realized Kylo was effective when they started throwing him into battle naked. Less is often more, and maybe shirtless Dash will have as many screaming fans as shirtless kylo. I think a lighter build like this will be better prepared to fit into a list after the (likely mild) discount that's coming to Dash.

It's not for VTG: It's PerCop and Bistan, so you can shoot out the same arc twice. While the combo does cost 22 points, it's the only way to improve his attack or action economy in any meaningful way. Without those, getting cornered away from obstacles makes him totally irrelevant and he dies pretty quickly. PerCop gives him defensive mods and Bistan gives him one extra attack as long as he doesn't get blocked and has arc on two ships. I don't think Dash is worth 140 with them, but I also don't think he's worth 120 without them. Hence the problem.

Force users are tempting, but they never pull their points' weight. A calculate does little good when you're rolling a total of 10 dice per turn. A second focus is much better.

9 hours ago, Wazat said:

The other half is his wingmen, and right now Rebel doesn't have a lot of efficient ace options besides wedge at the moment. You need an ally who punishes foes for chasing Dash into his donut, and in turn Dash punishes foes who target the wingman. IMO a named T-65 like Wedge, Luke, or Thane is a fine choice. That leaves around 22 to 36-ish points to either split between them, or maybe toss in a filler blocker/support craft. If Dash went down 16 - 8 points, so his core build was 101 - 108 instead of 116, who would you fly with him? Would you pair him with Hera? Han Solo? Wedge? Jek and Jake? Dual b-wings or t-65s? Thane + Jake? I assume when you say 83 points you have a specific build in mind.

I don't think Rebels really struggle for options, but Dash's lack of a good wingman certainly is a major issue. I don't have a specific build in mind at 83 points, I was just trying to say he's not worth much more than Han. Dash + Title at 105 would be enough to slip in a nice Corran, Braylen, Jake/Arvel, or even something weird like Jake/Kullbee (a personal favorite of mine). I currently fly him with a generic or two of something cheap, or else with a coordinate bot. Anything that can offer a significant threat would make Dash much more playable; at present the enemy can just close to R1 without any negative consequences because there's no room for a relevant threat beside him, unless you run him at a suboptimal build around 120 points, making him a total waste in the first place.

9 hours ago, Wazat said:

But Han likes to fly fat... and no one touches him now that his handbrake has been disabled.

Not entirely true: I actually think Han is still an extremely good value and just about the closest thing the Rebels have to a true ace, especially in a light build. Han/Lando/Lone Wolf/engine is a pretty incredible combo for 96 points. The title for an extra 6 gives even more durability. Han's ability to re-run his Lando roll give him great mods and action economy at a phenomenal price.

I doubt you'd want to fly two YTs though. That's basically doubling down on the weaknesses of your list.

8 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

It also wasn't exactly winning competitions on Dash.

NZ nationals disagrees with you there

On 11/18/2019 at 7:56 PM, ClassicalMoser said:

Wampa - 31 (because Swarm Tactics)

Alpha Squadron Pilot - 32, Talent slot

I'm just going to nitpick this one thing. Probably no one would ever fly Wampa again if they could take an Alpha for 1 point more. Access to Boost, Autothrusters, better dial, and a 3rd red die which never goes way. And add in a talent? Among the best single points to spend. At some cost point the Alpha just starts to replace named TIE Fighters.

35 brings an Alpha with Swarm Tactics, and you could fly a neat little bundle of 3 with Swarm Tactics Howlrunner, and have 51 left for a nice Duchess or Maarek Stele. Alternately, Iden, Swarm Howl, Swarm Alpha * 2, Academy * 2.

I think 30 is probably fine for Wampa--same as Inferno TIEs. When you consider the cost of Swarm Tactics as part of Wampa's cost, he's more like a 33-34 point ship right now, and that's probably fair.

Meanwhile, if Alphas were the same 33 as Planetary Sentinel Strikers, but had the Talent slot, that might be enough of a perk for the possibly-weaker Interceptor. I'd go either cheaper or talented, probably not both.

Bah... Sorry for another go round in our disagreement about the relative strengths of Strikers and Interceptors.

On 11/18/2019 at 7:56 PM, ClassicalMoser said:

Tempest Squadron Pilot - 36

I'll add in this: 5 Passive Sensors Tempests (presuming PS doesn't go up 2 points) would be a cool alternative to 5 Kihraxz or such. I think there's a tonne more potential in the Advanced if used right, but they're so much harder to use effectively. They really seem like a perfect candidate for crossing the 4 vs 5 per list threshold.

On 11/18/2019 at 11:30 PM, FriendofYoda said:

Please help my 2400’s, pretty please...

Give them all Talent slots and reduce the price of Expert Handling. Barrel Rolls are GREAT on these things. Give the Jumpmaster the same treatment. Making Expert Handling a lot cheaper (1/2/3 points for S/M/L) would be great for so many things. Barrel Rolls are fun.

Also, give Leebo back his crew slot. Ban C-3PO, if necessary, but just do it. I'd love if there was a selective ban list. I'd have two bans: Leebo with C-3PO. R2-D2 with Inertial Dampeners (give the Falcon back it's Illicit). Maybe there's a small, small number of other combos too broken to exist.

On 11/19/2019 at 1:06 AM, Blail Blerg said:

The 2400s, imo should have never been printed with 4 dice.

Probably true. A 4-dice turret is kind of thing that, if fairly priced, would be horrendously bad for the game.

I kind of appreciate that FFG tried a pretty bold design with it, but it didn't really work out.

On 11/18/2019 at 10:04 PM, gadwag said:

I'd also like to see a few points shaved off every single HWK pilot and put onto the title, since untitled HWKs are still pretty bad

Mass HWK generics seems... surprisingly good? 32 points gets you one with Engine Upgrade. They can rotate and focus in the same round, so can pretty much always have a shot with dice mods. Between White Boost and and with Leia for a sometimes White Stall, they've got a tonne of movement options. Boost and turret works really well together. In terms of statline, they're about equal to an RZ-2 A-Wing.

Even just tossing 2 into a list with like, Wedge and Luke would probably be somewhat effective.

Untitled named HWKs... probably not great. But the generics seem like they just need some brave champion who actually owns several.

6 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Probably true. A 4-dice turret is kind of thing that, if fairly priced, would be horrendously bad for the game.

I kind of appreciate that FFG tried a pretty bold design with it, but it didn't really work out.

That's probably the nicest way of saying it.

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"Nothing wrong with a failed experiment, other than calling it a success." - Some person.

3 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

That's probably the nicest way of saying it.

----

"Nothing wrong with a failed experiment, other than calling it a success." - Some person.

I'm actually starting to think Dash isn't that far from being a "good enough" pilot for casual night.* He's not there yet, but I don't think he's as far as he appears. I think part of it is giving up Trick Shot/Outrider. That's great in terms of pure math, but the game is a geometrical one as much as a statistical one, and Dash needs both his full dial and his barrel roll. There's something nice about Lone Wolf and Kanan together, and I'm eager for reps with it.

* To me, that's the target. Not tournament competitiveness, but that every ship (and most pilots) are good enough to have an enjoyable night in a not-super-competitive environment. If some ships aren't seeing a lot of tournament play, but do well enough at the FLGS, I don't think too many buffs are needed. Furthermore, I think some stuff--like TIE Defenders (I love these... one of my 3 favorite ships probably), Nantex, YT-2400, maybe a few more--should probably be priced out of tournament X-Wing. It'd be a fine line to tread, but there's some ships that if fairly priced for the top tables will be oppressive at the lower ones, and that's not great for the overall health of the game.

16 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

there's some ships that if fairly priced for the top tables will be oppressive at the lower ones, and that's not great for the overall health of the game.

Agreed, and I'd say Dash falls into this bucket, along with perhaps the nantex

40 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Mass HWK generics seems... surprisingly good? 32 points gets you one with Engine Upgrade. They can rotate and focus in the same round, so can pretty much always have a shot with dice mods. Between White Boost and and with Leia for a sometimes White Stall, they've got a tonne of movement options. Boost and turret works really well together. In terms of statline, they're about equal to an RZ-2 A-Wing.

Even just tossing 2 into a list with like, Wedge and Luke would probably be somewhat effective.

Untitled named HWKs... probably not great. But the generics seem like they just need some brave champion who actually owns several.

Generic HWKs aren't too bad, but yeah the named ones really need to offload a few points into the title, especially as their abilities (except Dace) rely on the title for wider arc coverage. The generic HWKs still aren't fantastic though - they are incredibly slow compared to RZ-2s so they can't do tricks like overshooting the target. Their turrets can point any direction, but the ship itself is very predictable, especially when stressed.

I wonder if FFG would get ambitious enough to errata some ship abilities onto ships that are struggling to find their niche, especially relatively vanilla ones like the TIE/ag and Z-95.

Dumb example for TIE Aggressor: After you perform a turret attack, you must rotate your turret. After you perform a non-rotate action, you may perform a red rotate action. I don't know if that's an appropriate ability, I'm just spitballing here. I'm simply providing an example, wondering if FFG would consider doing that to help a ship that can't be solved with points. Or errata their action bar or stats so that an appropriate point value is achievable. Dropping the TIE Phantom down to 3 dice was a smart move, and it's enjoyed multiple waves of deadly power in 2E.

When we talk about ships like the TIE/ag, Scurrg, Jumpmaster, Lancer, and YT-2400, they're hard to give a fair shake because they start to throw the meta off kilter when they become priced reasonably (displacing other ships or whole playstyles because they're too strong or swarmy), and so they stay expensive. So adjusting slots, abilities, or base stats is the next logical step. Or release a configuration or title that lowers the price and/or slots and/or base stats, and gives some interesting ability. The Vaksai fix of second edition, but adjusting more than points.

That said, Vaksai still failed; it took until 2E for the Kihraxz to see the level of play it deserved, and even then it's only the generics. But the fixes for the X-Wing and TIE Advanced x1 transferred over successfully.

50 minutes ago, Wazat said:

That said, Vaksai still failed; it took until 2E for the Kihraxz to see the level of play it deserved, and even then it's only the generics. But the fixes for the X-Wing and TIE Advanced x1 transferred over successfully.

Oh, you could do some very neat things with the Vaksai title. The problem was, it was already too late, everything else was powercreeped beyond salvation. And only ~7 months after "Guns for Hire" street release 2nd edition was annouced. So the Kihraxz got never around to shine.

I think sooner or later FFG has to come with ban lists or assigning "restricted pips" in the point list pdf:s. Otherwise design space is closing too fast, already now there are some pretty abritary ship and upgrade costings, just to avoid certain special combos. But simultaneously leading to the phemomena that certain cards are just not seen at all.

1 hour ago, Wazat said:

I wonder if FFG would get ambitious enough to errata some ship abilities onto ships that are struggling to find their niche, especially relatively vanilla ones like the TIE/ag and Z-95.

There were two z-95s at the top table of worlds - that ship has found its niche as a cheap gun.

The aggressor is more or less a TIE bomber with a turret instead of torps and bombs. Its issue is just that it costs too much (presumably because of barrage rockets)