2 minutes ago, AngryAlbatross said:

Who is the same cost as Vader or Kylo......but dies to a sneeze.

I'll give you that he can do real work. But with that high skill ceiling comes a very high floor.

Soontir is only 54 and no one complains about his action economy......

Soontir can't act on both himself and an enemy in the same turn off a bump. And he gets a stress for his extra action and a mere focus for his bullseye arc ability. And he doesn't get actions when bumped.

Sun Fac gets an additional die with Bullseye on top of the additional die Sun Fac gets for having acted on you to reduce your agility. Sun Fac gets all of that without getting stressed.

16 minutes ago, AngryAlbatross said:

Who is the same cost as Vader or Kylo......but dies to a sneeze.

I'll give you that he can do real work. But with that high skill ceiling comes a very high floor.

Soontir is only 54 and no one complains about his action economy......

4 hull with 3-agility with Focus and Evade actions, are hardly “dies to a sneeze”. The Evade action makes it more survivable than a Fang Fighter caught outside of it’s “Let’s Play Chicken” ability. It’s more survivable than a Tie Interceptor that isn’t spending mod-slots on a Hull Upgrade and/or Shield Upgrade. Really the only reason an A-Wing can be viewed as more survivable, is because the A-Wing has half it’s total hit points buried in crit-proof shielding. That’s it. And before anyone says “agility 2 with a tractor token”, that is only if it A) didn’t take Ensnare, and B) couldn’t pass the token off to someone else. At the very least you can keep an expendable 19pt Vulture nearby to throw the token onto.

It’s not like the Nantex dies as fast as a Tie Fighter, or Vulture.

I know what you were trying to do here, @Oldpara . I applaud the intent.

5 minutes ago, gennataos said:

I know what you were trying to do here, @Oldpara . I applaud the intent.

The internet wants him to eat a butt though.

Good luck at World's @Oldpara and thanks for a word of civility on a very creative design. I look forward to seeing how the Nantex performs on such an elite stage.

I've been flying Shadowcasters and Quadjumpers for years. Tractor beams have become one of my favorite design mechanics and the amount of spacial control it allows. The Nantex takes this fun control mechanic and gives it to a more ace-like ship. It takes serious planning to fly and is extremely high risk/reward. If you aren't planning 2-3 moves ahead it can quickly be left out of position and become ineffective. The developers were thinking way outside the box in the design of this and I think they knocked it out of the park.

13 minutes ago, dunhop said:

The developers were thinking way outside the box in the design of this and I think they knocked it out of the park.

Yep. And now they need to retrieve it and bring it back into the park so everyone can continue playing.

The Nantex is a cool ship, the ship ability is pretty lore-accurate and unique. But Sun Fac + Ensnare makes it slightly problematic, especially since they were obviously designed together. I like the idea of playing around of the function of tractor with this ship, but giving it the ability to pass it off to other ships was just a touch too much. Even changing the timing on when ensnare would transfer the tractor token still feels like it wasn't given enough thought and play testing.

This is how I think Ensnare should have been designed:

Ensnare

"While you perform an attack, if there is a friendly tractored ship at range 0-1 of the defender, the defender may only modify 1 dice result."

Basically, the inverse of gravidic deflection - instead of buffing your defense with tractor(GD), it debuffs the enemy's defense(ensnare). This would still encourage the Nantex player to self-tractor and not entirely screw the opponent's small-base ships. However, this would make Sun Fac's ability not work against non-tractored opponents, so I redesigned it as well:

Sun Fac

"While you perform an attack, if there is a friendly tractored ship at range 0-1 of the defender, roll one additional attack dice."

Still works even without ensnare, either with himself or other Bug wingmen. Heck, with this design it might even could have kept the modification slot. Just my ideas

I actually enjoyed flying Fac. He’s not as easy as everyone makes out, getting the turret arc right on the approach isn’t as easy as it seems.

13 hours ago, feltipern1 said:

I'm aware that Separatists are quite competitive - I play them, after all, but it might be better for me to point out that I was specifically referring to aces for the faction, not the faction overall.

You're playing CIS. If you wanted ace play you chose the wrong faction.

2 hours ago, Estarriol said:

I actually enjoyed flying Fac. He’s not as easy as everyone makes out, getting the turret arc right on the approach isn’t as easy as it seems.

Who's saying he's easy? I see a lot of people say he's NPE. I see some people claim he's OP. I don't really see many claims that he's easy.

1 hour ago, JJ48 said:

Who's saying he's easy? I see a lot of people say he's NPE. I see some people claim he's OP. I don't really see many claims that he's easy.

Quite a lot of easy mode allegations floating about, especially with the ability to tractor when blocked.

I can certainly see how it is hard to Re-position, rotate action, re-position enemy for your range bonus and your ability bonus and his agility penalty, get a dice mod, while possibly re-positioning the enemy into your higher value weapon and your second elite bonus if equipped. That is a lot of factors to try and get right at the highest initiative.

18 hours ago, Whalers on the moon said:

Pilot aces were never a part of the CIS's faction identity. I agree with OP and definitely don't think the sky is falling (especially after the List Fortress goose hunt I went on today during HIPAA training), however, the CIS doesn't need aces to perform well. There is more than one way to win in this game.

Yep - I agree. My preferred lists are more swarmy, and I often experiment with a wide variety of mixes, given what I have. However, I play against a fair few folks who like aces, so I'm looking at both sides.

4 hours ago, SnooSnarry said:

You're playing CIS. If you wanted ace play you chose the wrong faction.

Rather a problematic assumption to make, in point of fact. You don't know whether I wanted ace play or not, so you've been needlessly insulting. I'm wondering why...

A lot of folks like the Ace + Smaller Swarm archetype, and there was essentially no support for it before now. Grievous at Init 4 is a little too hard to really work (although I think a Crack Shot Grievous is a really strong 45 points worth of pocket ace). I think there needed to be a Nantex, but it's worked out a bit too potent.

I think a lot of that comes with the fact that the Nantex provides not just great ace-play, but massively powerful control tools in an ace vs ace matchup. That control really tips the balance. The high time-on-target (with a stronger bullseye for really being able to push lots of damage when they need to... most high-time-on-target ships can't spike damage too well), the fact that a Nantex has boosts and barrel rolls at the cost of reduced agility instead of stress or reduced dial options, probably even the block-resistance through PTA, are all things that probably* could have made for a really fair ship. Or at least a ship which could be made fair through a minor cost tweak... Most stuff in this game has had minor cost tweaks.

However, Ensnare.

A huge amount of control from any ace (folks like Latts Razzi or Ketsu Onyo have control, but a really different set of vulnerabilities than an ace), as well as a really strong shift in the damage race (Nantex no longer -1 agility, and an opponent now is).

Having played against a competent player with 3 middle initiative Nantexes (Nanti?) All with Ensnare with punchy support, Sun Fac isn't the problem. It seems more like the range 0, unlockable tractor is.

On 10/7/2019 at 12:49 PM, AngryAlbatross said:

Who is the same cost as Vader or Kylo......but dies to a sneeze.

I'll give you that he can do real work. But with that high skill ceiling comes a very high floor.

Soontir is only 54 and no one complains about his action economy......

Soontir’s action economy is based in part on situational and unescapable penalties. In order to get his free focus, an enemy must be within his bullseye. And in order to use autothrusters for a second reposition action, he must take a stress token which will limit his maneuver dial (a bit) for the next turn.

There is also the very real fact that he’s front-arc 90-degree locked, has no turret, and has 3 Hull. In order to make a legitimate comparison, we must also acknowledge that he needs to spend 7pts on a Hull Upgrade to bring himself up to a more comparable chassis.

On 10/7/2019 at 4:30 PM, FatherTurin said:

Wait....didn’t you just go on a tear about how turrets and easy repositioning were awful for the game?

[insert troll face]

Disclaimer: I’m just trying to be a snarky git (any brits around, please confirm appropriate use of “git”), and this comment is all in good fun. Disclaimer over.

I think the bullseye is cool & the concept of taking a tractor to reposition. At the same time, I dont think the ability to reposition rotate and focus all without stress is interesting in anyway at all. Its not a hard ship to use without ensnare. Its just harder than it is with it.

*Soontir double repositions and gets a modded uncontested range one murder against your generic.

"Ouch. Wow, he moves really cool. I'll have to watch out for that."

______

*Sun Fac moves your guy and blasts him.

"MOOOOMMM?!?!! He moved my ship!!"

*Does it again.

"Heeey?! I didn't think he had that much coverage."

*Does it again.

"Okay, now I was ACTUALLY TRYING that time. Are you serious?"

The Nantex is a beautifully designed ship. Just obviously not designed by the same person who walked by and designed Ensnare. I'd love to see Ensnare costed astronomically for obvious reasons, but it also opens the opportunity to give slots back. Now those pinpoint decisions matter, but you might want to bring a cheap nantex with some aces so that the cheap one can ensnare. Do you pinpoint and afterburners, mimicking Vonreg? Or do you pinpoint and take stealth and gravitic defelction? Or do you try your darndest not to pinpoint, except through clouds and off blocks so as to catch your opponents off guard?

The ship is amazing without Ensnare. Fac it so hard it when it has ensnare.

My local bunch of players came up with an errata-free (to cheer the devs) fix that would not push neither Ensnare nor Sun Fac into points oblivion.

What if: we redesign the tractor ability to have it spend the token(s) in order to execute the reposition?

The biggest issue of the "Sun Fac You" is that it's gimmick is literally unstoppable. One with it's dial and possibly to tractor-boost, it's almost impossible to maintain the range 2-3 control over it if you want to. Even if you nail a block on it, it will get away from the block, throw your blocker on the rock and murder it with a 4-5 attack shot.

At the same time, having the chassis ability reworded for a full execution would make the 25 pts. Torrents harvest Nantexs like a crop. The ship is to fragile not to have an emergency option.

However, it having an emergency escape mechanisms baked in with it's control mechanism and also with the attack-mod pilot abilities is where the ship is wrecking chaos.

Our proposition aimed at dismantling this stack of benefits: you want to close in? Alright, let's see what you've got, fair and square (Nantex can reposition for a shot, no one gets a -1 green). I've blocked you? Alright, here's your options: either you move, or I move. Go on and arc dodge, but at least my blocker gets to live another day (aggressive block doesn't ensure having a -1 green). You really want this ship dead, don't you? Go on, weaken it - but at least let it die where it winded up (Nantex may "intimidate" a ship but that's only a reward for having flown well in the first place. And it has to make up it's mind between space-control over the enemy or a damage spike).

This might not be a perfect fix but I suppose it could bring some balance to the Nantex gimmicks. As a player facing the ship (or two of) having to account for any two (four) ships on the mat to reposition, all against your will, is hard. If there's a rock on the mat, it creates a flashing red no-go zone R1 around it. Of there's three of those, that is quite a bit of the map.

---

Sidenote: people cheer for Nantex because it counters well the established, oppressive aces like the Jedi. Meanwhile, itself it might be even more oppressive over the part of the meta which already struggled with the Jedi...

8 hours ago, Ryfterek said:

What if: we redesign the tractor ability to have it spend the token(s) in order to execute the reposition?

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This is a great thought!

I think some other changes would have to come along (like a points reduction) to make it worthwhile but it certainly would eliminate a need to change card text. Then the Nantex could either reposition itself or use Ensnare to mess up opponents. This would also encourage non ensnare play of the Nantex.

27 minutes ago, AngryAlbatross said:

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This is a great thought!

I think some other changes would have to come along (like a points reduction) to make it worthwhile but it certainly would eliminate a need to change card text. Then the Nantex could either reposition itself or use Ensnare to mess up opponents. This would also encourage non ensnare play of the Nantex.

It would also mean that when affecting an opponent, you would have to choose between repositioning them and making them easier to hit. Not bad.

28 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

It would also mean that when affecting an opponent, you would have to choose between repositioning them and making them easier to hit. Not bad.

They're easier to hit geometrically or mathematically. Choose.

10 hours ago, Ryfterek said:

My local bunch of players came up with an errata-free (to cheer the devs) fix that would not push neither Ensnare nor Sun Fac into points oblivion.

What if: we redesign the tractor ability to have it spend the token(s) in order to execute the reposition?

It'd also mean non-Ensnare Nantex suffers literally zero penalty for a free boost or barrel roll. Focus/Reposition every turn without stress on one of the best white dials in the game. Every Nantex would need to go up by at least 5 points before even considering a chance like that.

I appreciate that folks are trying to come up with a different way do nerf Ensnare, and making Sun Fac choose between [1] moving themself [2] moving an opponent [3] or reducing their agility and getting a bonus attack die. "Or" is typically a great direction.* A choice, and a meaningful choice, is often a great direction in ship design.

However, the plan also fundamentally breaks Nantex design in general (and effectively deletes Gravitic Deflection from the game). I think it'd be a bad change, because it doesn't really get us any closer to a balanced and functioning Nantex, it just creates one that's borked in some different way.

10 hours ago, Ryfterek said:

At the same time, having the chassis ability reworded for a full execution would make the 25 pts. Torrents harvest Nantexs like a crop. The ship is to fragile not to have an emergency option.

However, it having an emergency escape mechanisms baked in with it's control mechanism and also with the attack-mod pilot abilities is where the ship is wrecking chaos.

Also, I reject the premise that the Nantex is squishy thus must have an escape mechanism. TIE Interceptor doesn't, nor A-Wings, nor Strikers, nor etc etc etc. Fang Fighters kinda do in Concordia Faceoff, but almost nothing fragile has an emergency option. Most ships in the game get messed up by being blocked. I don't necessarily see a reason why the Nantex needs something special in this regard. Folks try to defend it as high-risk-high-reward, but that falls apart when it has fewer risks than other similar ships.

10 hours ago, Ryfterek said:

Sidenote: people cheer for Nantex because it counters well the established, oppressive aces like the Jedi. Meanwhile, itself it might be even more oppressive over the part of the meta which already struggled with the Jedi...

This is a big part of where I'm coming from. The first two lists I've taken into Nantex ran silly Passive Sensors gunboats, and (admittedly overloaded) generic N-1 with R3, FCS, and AdvProTorps. Didn't really pick them to be wicked competitive, but these are ships that easily get wrecked by Nantex.

Nantex isn't some sort of anti-ace, ending an ace-dominated meta. Instead, the Nantex is itself an ace ship, but with a huge amount of control. The control tools it has just mean it can ACE HARDER than any other ace.

* More on "Or." I tend to think of the TIE/sf as the ship which got the best 1e > 2e revision of anything. 1e had the "gunner" for free, and always had front/back arcs. 2e fairly split the cost between ship and gunner, so you've got a choice of whether or not you want it. Full rear arc got replaced by a turret, which can be moved for free after any normal action, but requires a choice, and not to get blocked. Turret-arc missiles were a nifty little cherry on top. Mostly, the ship did everything it did before, but requires the player to make a choice. Front or back. Gunner or not. That kind of active decision making is great.

I appreciate the premise of bringing this kind of choice and trade-off to Nantex, but I don't think spending tractor tokens to move gets there.