Hello everybody,

My first post here. Anyway, my question is regarding the setup-phase in the game. Me and my crew have played the games perhaps more times than I can count on my both hands, and my main critque is regarding the randomness during the map layout. The most annoying part for us is probably beeing chosen as the first player. The first player very seldom can find a solution to the starting possitions, especially when there are much mountains/water placed on the sides. It becomes a real pain for the first player finding possible starting sollutions, and the other usually have to point out possible places, or redo the map altogether(not fun). Not only that, but the first player also always gets the worst pick. Some of you might say: well, its the first player s´choosing the possitions, but my point is that there usually are only very few sollutions (if any at all) of how to place the starting possitions. By choosing on of the staring possitions, the other thre usually have to be lined up every four spaces to fit. Usually they will not be equal, and the secondplayer thus gets the nice(est) spot.

My point here is if anyone has though of testing any pre-designed maps, which favour balance(in what ways it is appropriate). I think such maps would need a fair spread of reasources and towns, but also be aware of mountain-ranges favouring someone...

Is using a pre-designed map taking the fun out of the game perhaps, what are your thoughts?

(PS. Another rant I have is about the elven sorceress, none of us understand the point with her special ability. In what way is it supposed to be used effectively? Are we missing something here?)

oscarc

If it ends up being a major problem, one thing you can try is building the map as normal, and then re-picking Fate cards to see who places the tokens (and chooses last). That way, every player has an incentive to build a fair map, as nobody knows who will end up getting last pick of starting locations.

oscarc said:

Their ability basically equates to routing an opposing figure, except the figure also has to leave the battle, meaning cards like Rally Cry won't help them during the battle. Also, depending on where the battle is happening, it could also force the units to leave somewhere that would put too many units in an area, or destroy the unit outright if there is nowhere to retreat to.

It's not the most useful ability, granted, but it can come in handy on occasion.

The sorceress's ability strikes me as being a "play with rules" thing more than an "omg, how cool!" thing. It won't be tremendously useful in all circumstances, it just stirs the pot on the normal sequence of actions. Interesting things might happen, but it probably won't win the game for you.

As far as set up is concerned, Sigma's idea works well.

During setup the second player gets to pick first but the first player gets to set where he can pick from so it is usually in the first players best interest to look at the map and set the markers down as evenly as possible. In my games this usually leads to all players involved trying to make the map even as well, especially spreading food out so it's not in a clump. But failing that Sig's idea is as perfect a solution as you will get, in fact I might try it next game for the heck of it.

Elven Sorceress: Not the best special but it isn't horrible. It does rid the end count of one standing unit in some cases regardless of that units hp.

Kirenx said:

I'm not sure why all players involved would want to make the map even; the second player especially has a very GOOD reason for making the board as lopsided as possible. If the board is intrinsically imbalanced, regardless of where the first player puts the tokens, there will be one that is just "better" than the rest, and the second player will take it, getting the best position and a starting advantage. He doesn't want an "even map" - he wants it as uneven as possible, because he KNOWS he can get the best of the bunch, no matter how the tokens are placed.

The third and fourth players also have (reduced) motivation for the same, as they know they will be able to pick a better position than the next guys. Only the first player has a vested interest in a completely fair map!

sigmazero13 said:

I guess I have just never played a game where the map is set up as you describe. If I see someone setting things up heavily on one end I'll use my pieces to set things up on the other end and if a specific point is resource heavy at the end of map setup and I was first player I would set the home location options with the resource area in the middle rather than set a home start there. Not claiming your situation doesn't happen with your group just saying it hasn't ever happened with mine.

Yeah, it does largely depend on the group, and if the group is trying to balance it already, there's no problem. But since each player only has 2 tiles, Player 1 can only do so much to try and prevent an imbalanced map; player 2 owns player 1 on that front since he always places his tiles SECOND.

With larger games, it's more likely to be somewhat balanced, but in a 1-v-1 especially, player 2 has a LOT of control.

Well regardless Sig, I do think your solution is solid and in fact really should have been in the base game since I don't really see a draw back to doing it that way. But then this is coming from a guy who thinks they should have included fate card numbers and % sheets too.

Thanks for the answers,

@ sigmazero13: I agree with you that the second player has an advantage, and as you say, because the first player places his tile first, he cannot so easily prevent heavilly amassed resources. I think that the idea of doing a second shuffle before starting to choose homereals might be worth a try..

The thing with choosing starting locations, because they have to be 4 squares distanced, there are really only four ways to place the starting markers; you place the first one arbitrarilly, count 4 spaces, place the second, and so on until you complete the circle. Because the placement of the other three usually are dictated by the first one, it is hard to not get a good and bad starting possition.

Anyway, my thought about designing a balanced map was not only in regards to resources, but also to avoid choke points, and the common scenario of splitting a 4-player game into two 2-player games! As an example, in my last game, we ended up with two "islands", connected by two tiles with a mountainpass, with two players starting on each island. The result was almost only interaction with 1 player = not using the potenial of interaction between more players.

It seems to me that its just not a popular idea to create ideal maps... Perhaps I should just create my own and see how it turns out.

Regarding the elven sorceress, I just felt that its a bit underpowered compared to other spellcasters. I enjoy playing the elves anyway though..

oscarc said:

I agree. I never recruit with the goal of getting a Sorceress. Sometimes I get one in addition to whatever else I recruit, but I never go for them specifically.

Unless I get a lot of ore, I typically try and recruit a lot of Archers and Warriors. In large groups, they can pack a good 1-2 punch, with Archers being used to target specific units, often multi-health units, and then the Warriors being used to clean up those multi-health units damaged by the Archers.

One more disturbing thing with the elven lineup is that I always run out of warriors! There are only eight models available, and as each race tries to maximize their food recources up to eight, the warriors will son all be recrouted. Thats why I always try to put the on the front line; I know there are plenty more if I need them.

Usually you will only be recruiting from one or two resource pools at the most witht he exception being at setup and a season card that allows you to draw from all three. If you are running out of warriors just recruit from the other pools. Sorc's may not be great but the archers and riders have their uses.

Kirenx said:

The two pools Elves will USUALLY draw from are Food (Warriors) and Wood (Archers). Unless they get a ton of Ore, they likely won't be recruiting from them very often, because it takes a lot of ore to get 2 Pegasus Riders from it, and just one may not be worth it over the other two unless you are maxed out on the others. Even if you do have a lot of ore, it would be a tough choice as to which units to recruit, as Warriors, though slower, tend to be more powerful than Pegasus Riders.

I completely agree Sig I would rather be recruiting from wood and food as elves. But if you have already managed to get out all your warriors you most likely are not doing too bad and can probably afford to recruit a few units from ore even if you don't have much coming from that particular resource.