I'm using Gorgol to reposition a bombardment drone to launch/drop friendship tokens more accurately. You can't place payloads on the same turn you decloak, but you can Gorgol-tractor the ship before it places its payload in the system phase, and that is fantastic fun.

However, we had a rules discussion on whether you have to be able to do everything the ability says in order to do it at all, or if you can do the ability as long as you can do part of it. After some research I'm no longer so confident. Here's his card:

What's simple is the tractor token is not a cost: that's the disarm token. The effect is two parts: gain a tractor token, and repair a faceup damage card.

I can see it ruled one of two ways:

No

No, Gorgol cannot choose an undamaged ship because every step of his ability has to succeed.

• Precedent: Dalan (kimogila) cannot remove a shield to gain a shield if his shields are full. Both effects must successfully resolve or neither can. See this official ruling .
  • edit: Possible counter-argument: Dalan's ruling is extremely specific and we haven't seen anything else like it. His ability works like transferring a focus token; you cannot transfer a token from a ship that doesn't have one, or to a ship that cannot receive one ("If a ship involved in a transfer is not able to remove or gain the token involved, the transfer cannot take place."). So FFG's ruling may simply be treating Dalan as transferring a shield token, with no wider-reaching implications.

Yes

Yes, Gorgol can choose an undamaged ship because at least some of his ability can resolve. Both the cost (disarm) and the the condition (if you do) succeed, and at least some of the ability can resolve. The ability resolves even if one part cannot.

• This is an argument that the Dalan ruling is very specialized: it has two very connected effects and they have to succeed together because they're interrelated, and they emulate the Token Transfer rules (but without a general rule because a shield is not a token). If the enemy doesn't have a shield left to lose, you don't gain a shield. If you don't have capacity to gain a shield, you can't take one from the foe. This thus shouldn't affect something like Gorgol or Deathfire.
• Related rules question with the same fate: Can Deathfire use his ability to drop a mine on death even if he's already fired cluster missiles this round (so he cannot make another bonus attack).
  • The question here is, do you resolve as much of the ability as possible, and it only fails to add to the queue if it has no effect, or is the Dalan ruling more universal than just itself?
  • In other words: If Gorgol cannot do his ability on an undamaged ship, then that has implications for deathfire and any other multi-step effects too.
  • Counter-counter argument: Deathfire is a "may" ability, so it might be reasonable to separate each step from each other because both are presumably elective. But it may be structured that way simply because it's a triggered -- instead of activated -- effect. Typically a ship doesn't choose to die, but it does choose whether to use an ability like Gorgol or Dalan.
• Tenuous Precedent of doing as much as possible: Han Solo and Saturation Salvo etc reroll as many dice as possible when some dice cannot be modified (RR pg 26). I really thought there was a general rule that said you resolve as much of an effect as possible, but I can't find it.
• edit: Note that the Nantex ship ability ruling is unrelated to this question. Gaining a tractor token is a cost to perform the rotate action; it's a cost and effect (which must unwind if the ship cannot perform the effect), not a two step effect like Gorgol's ability.

From what I can tell, the No answer is unfortunately the probably-correct one, but I may be missing some other precedent that's relevant here. Thoughts?

Good question. Best guess is no, but it's still pretty up for debate.

I'm going to have to say no. The entire ability hinges on the intended target having a face up ship crit. If it doesn't then the ability cannot resolve.

Given that he flies for the Separatists, you may think Gorgol would be hard-pressed to reliably find friendly ships with critical damage cards that he can flip face down... but I feel like he's a fine wingman for Dubs !

agreed, seems like a no, with the Dalan Oberos clarification being the precedent.

also, Dalans ability does not work like transfering a token. shields are not tokens, but markers. there is no transfer taking place either. one ship loosing a shield and Dalan gaining a shield are separate effects, even if they belong to the same ability and must both be possible to resolve for the ability to work.

Seems different enough from Dalan - using "then" instead of "and" - that Dalan's ruling doesn't seem relevant.

I'm with everyone. Id say No.

Cool, thanks everyone! That's not the answer I wanted to hear, but it's not about that, it's about getting the rules right.

BTW I've also asked FFG, but I doubt that will yield results (it never seems to):

Quote

When an ability has two or more effects, do you have to be able to complete both effects (or else you can't do the ability at all) or do you simply do as much as possible?

Examples: Can Gorgol (Nantex) use his ability to tractor an undamaged ship? Can Deathfire use his ability to drop a payload on death even if he's already performed a bonus attack this round (e.g. cluster missiles)?

All I've seen is the Dalan Oberos (kimogila) ability, which seems super-specific because it acts like a focus token transfer, but for shields (which are markers not tokens, so there's no general rule to follow). I'm not sure if this ruling was very specifically for Dalan's ability, or if it applies generally to all abilities in the game (if you can't do all the effects, you can't do the ability at all).

Gorgol's ability is really useful for repositioning allies, more so than for repairing crit cards. Gorgol can reposition an ally before they drop a payload, for example, for the price of disarming gorgol and lowering that ally's defense. This is really cool. But this can't be done most of the time if Dalan's ruling applies to all abilities, and there are other implications, like Deathfire's ability.

I look forward to a response. Thanks for your time!

So, into the void it goes! Whether they'll answer, nobody knows!

Thanks for your responses, everyone!

2 hours ago, meffo said:

agreed, seems like a no, with the Dalan Oberos clarification being the precedent.

also, Dalans ability does not work like transfering a token. shields are not tokens, but markers. there is no transfer taking place either. one ship loosing a shield and Dalan gaining a shield are separate effects, even if they belong to the same ability and must both be possible to resolve for the ability to work.

That being Kimogila Dalan, not Starviper Dalan.

That being said, it's pretty straightforward - you can't do something that you can't do. In order for a faceup Ship damage card to be repaired, there has to be one that can be repaired, otherwise, it's a null effect.

A specific part of your post needs to be addressed, as well:

2 hours ago, Wazat said:

Related rules question with the same fate: Can Deathfire use his ability to drop a mine on death even if he's already fired cluster missiles this round (so he cannot make another bonus attack).

Dropping a mine on death isn't a bonus attack. Bombs and Mines don't constitute attacks. You can perform a Cluster Missiles bonus attack completely independently of dropping a mine or bomb as a special effect.

Just now, feltipern1 said:

That being Kimogila Dalan, not Starviper Dalan.

That being said, it's pretty straigthforward - you can't do something that you can't do. In order for a faceup Ship damage card to be repaired, there has to be one that can be repaired, otherwise, it's a nulkl effect.

Err... the whole point of the question is, when there are two separate effects in the ability, can you do the ability if one won't have any effect. In this case, the two effects are "the ship gains a tractor token" and "the ship repairs a crit card". I won't explain it further here though; that's all above. Please read my post and the responses.

Just now, feltipern1 said:

A specific part of your post needs to be addressed, as well:

Dropping a mine on death isn't a bonus attack. Bombs and Mines don't constitute attacks. You can perform a Cluster Missiles bonus attack completely independently of dropping a mine or bomb as a special effect.

.....Please just read what deathfire's ability actually says, and then reread my post. Notice that there are two effects on Deathfire's ability, and one of those effects could be blocked by firing clusters. Once again, that's the whole point of this thread.

5 minutes ago, Wazat said:

one of those effects could be blocked by firing clusters.

Specifically the optional attack granted by his ability, which is easily forgotten due to what the platform is and a tendency for people to go "Oooo!! Extra bomb drops!!!!!".

So I actually disagree that the Dalan ruling can be used for this. I know it's not the same game, but in Destiny, a lot of cards had a do as much of the card as you can. If a card had a then statement, you couldn't do that statement without doing what came first, but if a card had multiple separate sentences you did as many of the options as you could. For example, if a card said Do A. Do . Do C. Then you did as many of the statements as you could. If a card said Do A, then Do B. You would Do A, but if you couldn't do B it would stop there. But you couldn't do B if you didn't do A.

The fact that Dalan is worded differently than Zam shows different intent. If they wanted it to be a set effect, they could have said Gain a tractor to repair 1 damage card rather than the then statement they used.

Now Deathfire I'm not 100% sure about.

5 hours ago, Wazat said:

Err... the whole point of the question is, when there are two separate effects in the ability, can you do the ability if one won't have any effect. In this case, the two effects are "the ship gains a tractor token" and "the ship repairs a crit card". I won't explain it further here though; that's all above. Please read my post and the responses.

.....Please just read what deathfire's ability actually says, and then reread my post. Notice that there are two effects on Deathfire's ability, and one of those effects could be blocked by firing clusters. Once again, that's the whole point of this thread.

I get your point, and the point of this thread. However, what I'm saying is that you have to be able to resolve all parts of an effect for an effect to happen when there's a condition for it to take place, in my opinion . To Deathfire's ability - dropping a bomb and performing an attack are not the same thing - you can do one without the other being affected, as they are different game effects. To me, the "and" indicates that the entire ability is available to perform, but one does not necessarily require the other for the effect to take place. That seems fairly straightforward given the wording of the ability and the game rules that apply. So if I were to use Deathfire, I'd first check to see if I could perform an attack (which may or may not be the case). Once I figure that out, I would then check to see if I can drop or launch a device. For the Cluster Missiles bit, if I'd used the bonus attack already, I wouldn't see that interfering with performing a primary weapon attack. For the drop or launch a device bit, I'd check to see if the conditions for dropping a device are met - does it have a charge? Can it be dropped or launched as per its own restrictions? If these are met, then I would have no problem dropping a device. for Deathfire particularly, there's been some FAQ information that explicitly states that the drop a bomb ability supersedes normal game rules, like Paige Tico. I would have to assume that that means the entirety of the ability.

With Gorgol, or so it would seem, there has to be a target for an effect to take place. Gorgol's ability requires that a faceup Ship trait damage be repaired. If there's no faceup Ship trait damage card for the effect to repair, then it can't happen, in my book. But I can see why the "then" of the effect could be confusing.

4 hours ago, feltipern1 said:

I get your point, and the point of this thread. However, what I'm saying is that you have to be able to resolve all parts of an effect for an effect to happen when there's a condition for it to take place, in my opinion . To Deathfire's ability - dropping a bomb and performing an attack are not the same thing - you can do one without the other being affected, as they are different game effects. To me, the "and" indicates that the entire ability is available to perform, but one does not necessarily require the other for the effect to take place. That seems fairly straightforward given the wording of the ability and the game rules that apply. So if I were to use Deathfire, I'd first check to see if I could perform an attack (which may or may not be the case). Once I figure that out, I would then check to see if I can drop or launch a device. For the Cluster Missiles bit, if I'd used the bonus attack already, I wouldn't see that interfering with performing a primary weapon attack. For the drop or launch a device bit, I'd check to see if the conditions for dropping a device are met - does it have a charge? Can it be dropped or launched as per its own restrictions? If these are met, then I would have no problem dropping a device. for Deathfire particularly, there's been some FAQ information that explicitly states that the drop a bomb ability supersedes normal game rules, like Paige Tico. I would have to assume that that means the entirety of the ability.

With Gorgol, or so it would seem, there has to be a target for an effect to take place. Gorgol's ability requires that a faceup Ship trait damage be repaired. If there's no faceup Ship trait damage card for the effect to repair, then it can't happen, in my book. But I can see why the "then" of the effect could be confusing.

You misunderstand: Deathfire's attack on death is a bonus attack. Cluster missiles are a bonus attack. If you've already used your bonus attack on cluster missiles earlier in the round, you cannot attack with Deathfire's ability when he dies (only one bonus attack per round). The point I was making when bringing up deathfire is, in this scenario you cannot make that attack, so you can't do all the effects on his ability. So if not all the effects of an ability can take place, then the question is, does the entire ability get blocked (also preventing you from dropping the payload)?

And it's not about conditions either. From what I can tell, FFG words its conditions very specifically, and the effects of the ability are not the condition, but again, that's what we're discussing here. Gorgol's condition/cost is getting disarmed. It says "if you do, then do these things", just like spending a charge. His condition is not tractoring the ally; rather, his ability has one condition (disarm yourself) and two effects (tractor the target, then repair a damage card on the target). This is very similar to both Dalan and Deathfire (ability that has two effects), but in different ways. That's the reason for bringing them up.

The whole point of the thread is to determine whether Gorgol's ability requires repairing a faceup damage card, not to assume that it requires it.

I don't know whether you're confused about why I'm arguing, or you're just being rude. It's very hard to parse intent from text. But you came out swinging with your post, came off as very accusatory, while also looking like you had no idea what we're actually discussing and why. Feels like either you're not reading my posts very closely at all, or you're doing this on purpose.

very strange. had a post with a lot of examples here, but it merged with my original post and got edited at the same time. well, it wasn't all that relevant anyway, but it all disappeared when i tried to edit the posts separately. well, at least it's now just a double post.

these cards are actually very relevant to this discussion and the understanding of our friend gorgol.



inertial dampeners is an interesting card in a lot of ways. of course, the stress is mandatory. it's interaction with kanan jarus crew was much debated. FFG clarified that the part of the ability after "then" shares timing with kanan crew, as in it happens after a maneuver is executed. they further clarified that this separate part of the ability ("then gain 1 stress token.") can be entered into the ability queue either after or before kanan crews ability. seems very strange and over the top, since a ruling that the stress from intertial dampeners always happens as part of the ability and that kanan cannot interupt this ability while it resolves would have been far more simple and just as functional. maybe just not as flexible. this leads me to believe that what ever comes after a "then" on a card acts as a separate part from the rest of the ability.

"During the System Phase, you may gain 1 disarm token and choose a friendly ship at range 1-2." seems all well and good and easy to understand.

"If you do, it gains 1 tractor token," yes, if you choose a ship, it gains a tractor token.

"then repairs 1 of its faceup Ship trait damage cards." this is not optional. we're back to dalan oberos. i thought using dalan was fine even if he had full shileds, but it's not.

FFG says it's not ok because it's a single effect. and so, you've changed my mind. since gorgol has the "then" in front of the part you want to know if you have to be able to resolve, according to the interal dampeners / kanan example above, gaining the tractor token is clearly a separate effect from repairing the faceup damage card.

since it's a separate effect, i will also add that resolving the tractor token and the tractored status before you repair a faceup ship damage card is the way to go.

very strange. was not expecting to come to that conclusion.

well, at least i've learned something about use of the word "then" in card text. thank you.

I always forget to reference that. But it definitely seems that the then wording section is separate effect from other things.

18 hours ago, Wazat said:

You misunderstand: Deathfire's attack on death is a bonus attack. Cluster missiles are a bonus attack. If you've already used your bonus attack on cluster missiles earlier in the round, you cannot attack with Deathfire's ability when he dies (only one bonus attack per round). The point I was making when bringing up deathfire is, in this scenario you cannot make that attack, so you can't do all the effects on his ability. So if not all the effects of an ability can take place, then the question is, does the entire ability get blocked (also preventing you from dropping the payload)?

And it's not about conditions either. From what I can tell, FFG words its conditions very specifically, and the effects of the ability are not the condition, but again, that's what we're discussing here. Gorgol's condition/cost is getting disarmed. It says "if you do, then do these things", just like spending a charge. His condition is not tractoring the ally; rather, his ability has one condition (disarm yourself) and two effects (tractor the target, then repair a damage card on the target). This is very similar to both Dalan and Deathfire (ability that has two effects), but in different ways. That's the reason for bringing them up.

The whole point of the thread is to determine whether Gorgol's ability requires repairing a faceup damage card, not to assume that it requires it.

I don't know whether you're confused about why I'm arguing, or you're just being rude. It's very hard to parse intent from text. But you came out swinging with your post, came off as very accusatory, while also looking like you had no idea what we're actually discussing and why. Feels like either you're not reading my posts very closely at all, or you're doing this on purpose.

I think I'm probably confused about why you're arguing this - which would mean that yes, I do have no idea what you're actually discussing and why, but for one simple reason: there's no confusion in its interpretation for me. If you can't repair a damage, in my opinion, then the ability can't be used, so to me, you don't use the ability. I was also of that camp during the Dalan discussion (pre-FAQ answer) when it was happening in another thread (i.e. if you can't regenerate a shield on Dalan, you can't cause another shielded ship to lose a shield). Again, that seemed pretty straightforward to me. Most of the if-then effects on these cards seem like they're intended to be used in full, if they're used at all, and that's how I play them. For Deathfire, I would play the ability as if I can still drop a bomb, even if I can't make an attack.

I'm sorry if I seem rude. I am blunt, and that comes across in my communications in real life, as well; likewise, I've often been accused of sounding arrogant when stating things, but I don't intend to be. What happens is that I don't see the problem, therefore I don't understand why others see it. So I'm neither skimming your posts nor fighting on purpose, I'm just trying to clarify how I see things.