Graspar said:

What? No. No it wouldn't. The weapons and distances were used for a reason - psyker abilities are almost universally measured in M, with only a few non-combat abilities measured in KM - things like telepathy and far sight. If you want to get creative, assuming the psyker is utilizing heavy weaponry they could make use of far sight + divine shot, assuming they know exactly where the shot is coming from so that they could far sight directly to that location, than they could retaliate by the third shot that is fired (first shot is surprise round, second shot is far sight round, third shot is divine shot + retaliation round).

Catch Projectiles and Precognitive Dodge wouldn't work here immediately - Catch Projectiles is automatically null with an energy weapon (like.. The MP Las Cannon), and may not be manifested in the first round as a Surprise Round does not allow reactions. After that, if they are using a solid projectile it sure sucks, but the shooter can run away. Precognitive Dodge cannot be used for the same reason - you cannot use it in a Surprise Round, however after that it is fine, but restricts the use of manifestations.

I will admit its 6AM and I am exhausted, so I am largely taking this post by post. I agree with Jack of Tears here - all the abilities combined make a power house, but a psyker won't have all abilities combined. The response to this situation largely requires someone to have certain powers and be a certain build, and even than, they are pretty much screwed. Psykers tend to largely be squishier than.. Pretty much anything else, unless they have their protective manifestations up. Their manifestations are really bloody powerful, but they can only do one per round. However we are losing the point of such a thought exercise - the initial point was people were complaining that Psykers could (and do) pump only one Stat. Yes, they get the most out of it, but everyone can do that - and the hypothetical Guardsman was drafted up as a point of what a single point pumped character in another class could do, and how they would be able to destroy the complained WP pumped Psyker.

To deal with the responses:

Telekenetics: Catch Projectile is useless, so nothing listed in Telekenetics is any use.

Biomancy: Shape Flesh: Fly and than go into High Altitude is viable. Problems: Surprise Round: 5d10+10. 2nd Round: Manifest Shape Flesh: Receive another 5d10+10. 3rd Round: Depending on Initiative you either get away or receive another 5d10+10. These are all Pen 10 attacks, and Biomancy automatically becomes discounted if you are in an enclosed enviroment at all. So assuming the psyker can somehow soak *that* much damage (doubtful), in an open enviroment they can escape. Most likely, they are dead by than.

Divination: No, Far Sight lets you cast your sight directly to where you choose to cast it. Ie: 3KM to the west. Your facing is restricted, and you can only see in a normal distance. This takes a Full Action every manifest, and a Half Action to turn your sight. The viability on this is so incredibly questionable its not funny. Its possible, if say, you walk into a giant hive dome and notice there is a singular ledge 2km away and want to check it, but largely this requires the Psyker to be so incredibly paranoid its not practical to be something you can even remotely count upon. You have to be constantly checking everywhere at all times, and this is simply not possible in the majority of situations. The only practical use would be to walk around sustaining Preternatural Awareness at all times, which creates its own issue. However, lets use the assumption that Far Sight is used and somehow spots shooter... You still cannot manifest more than once per round. Divine Shot is only a practical return shot if you are carrying some heavy weaponry yourself. Accurate weapons don't give a bonus since its just an auto-hit no DoS attack. Divination: Marginally useful, however, likely your still dead.

Pyromancy: Okay.. And its agreed that he is useless. Barring him walking around as Molten Man at all times. Which I would say.. Seriously? Seriously?

Telepathy: Yes, Projection becomes actually viable. Problems are present however. Guess what? They have no response, or if they do have a response they cannot manifest Projection. I will run with the no response issue since nothing has voided Surprise Attack - Round 1: Surprise Attack - 5d10+10. Round 2: 5d10+10 - Psyker Manifests Projection, falls to ground unconscious. If the Psyker wins initiative here they fall to ground before they are shot.. And thus may not avoid the damage, or mitigate the damage in any way. The shooter will also get bonus BS, so hey, they definitely aren't missing. Psyker automatically will be winning the opposed WP test because they pumped WP, so they may communicate. Round 3: Either the shooter gets another 5d10+10 or Psyker goes first, Psyker gets to use abilities that basically guarantee the shooter is dead.. Assuming that they have survived between two to three hits at 5d10+10. This relies on the fact your GM will even let you use projection - you don't know the target well and its an unwilling target, but since you only are aware you are being shot at 2KM away, can you target something automatically just because its in combat? I personally wouldn't let you since it opens up unlimited cheese if you have *no ability* to detect them, and just can auto target them from out of sight.

To reiterate, the hypothetical guardsman was a thought experiment pointing out that any character can be viable by pumping a singular stat - and how such a character could be used to trump the "impossible" WP focused Psyker. If you throw them into a random room together and tell them to fight its going to act differently, but I worked with the idea that the BS focused character would be attacking the Psyker and therefore would be maximizing the situation to his benefit. The situation logically follows rather easy - all it requires is a BS character going after a Psyker with long ranged weaponry. Yes, the Psyker will get the most by pumping one stat, but it doesn't invalidate everyone else, especially with party synnergy allowing people to give bonuses and immunities to things all over the place.

Anyways to move on, manifestations aren't a test - they are like damage rolls. By RAW you cannot Fate them either, its up to GM preference. I would likely favor that people fate them as well instead of the Pheno/Peril roll since it opens up a far bigger bag of tricks (Fate manifest roll, go from 1 9 to all 9's, or all 9's to none) versus the high likely hood of taking a really bad roll and making it into nothing seriously.

Further on I agree myself as well - I look at Psykers being fundamentally fine in game already, they can be penalized to hell via other methods already through good GMing. Changes to the rules are fine, anyone can house rule whatever they want, but the vast majority of house rules I see tend to be poorly thought out affairs.

What? No. No it wouldn't. The weapons and distances were used for a reason - psyker abilities are almost universally measured in M, with only a few non-combat abilities measured in KM - things like telepathy and far sight. If you want to get creative, assuming the psyker is utilizing heavy weaponry they could make use of far sight + divine shot, assuming they know exactly where the shot is coming from so that they could far sight directly to that location, than they could retaliate by the third shot that is fired (first shot is surprise round, second shot is far sight round, third shot is divine shot + retaliation round).

Except that I chose telepathy for a reason, see there's this great ability that lets you leave your body and according to the guy who wrote the psyker rules also let's you use other telepathy powers at the location you're at. So yeah, he'd be dead by RAI.

And no, as I've explained the first round can't be a surprise round. It's a valid situation in the game, but not a valid situation for comparing character builds unless you can somehow make an argument that explains why the surprise round follows logically from the character builds being compared, like it does for a psyker with see me not or a super sneaky assassin.

"Durr hurr, the guardsman wins because I put him at an overwhelming advantage in the situation" isn't a reasonable argument.

Catch Projectiles and Precognitive Dodge wouldn't work here immediately - Catch Projectiles is automatically null with an energy weapon (like.. The MP Las Cannon), and may not be manifested in the first round as a Surprise Round does not allow reactions. After that, if they are using a solid projectile it sure sucks, but the shooter can run away. Precognitive Dodge cannot be used for the same reason - you cannot use it in a Surprise Round, however after that it is fine, but restricts the use of manifestations.

This seems to be a classic case of "ah, but if you do that I'll change the scenario so I still win". Didn't you use the hunting rifle as your first example? Anyway, fear not, I included in my list of powers that help stuff that gives half damage against Las weapons.

And like pointed out, I do not accept "but the psyker is surprised" as an argument, win by GM fiat (or in this case, example maker upper fiat) isn't a fair way to compare, it invalidates the comparison to give one compareé such an advantage that does not follow from the stuff that's being compared. That one might single handedly defeat a horde of tau firewarriors with the right combination of top tier equipment and surprise doesn't mean that the horde is objectively balanced with the character doing the killing.

"Absurd, how would you construct such a scenario?" Easy, the firewarriors are in a canyon, the PC surprises them with a stock of virus grenades from RT. The horde will break in a few rounds from the continual damage from grenades and have no way to shoot back. But this is, like your surprise round a highly situational advantage that doesn't follow from the mechanics. That doesn't mean it can't happen, just that it's not a reasonable situation to use when discussing the mechanics.

I will admit its 6AM and I am exhausted, so I am largely taking this post by post. I agree with Jack of Tears here - all the abilities combined make a power house, but a psyker won't have all abilities combined. The response to this situation largely requires someone to have certain powers and be a certain build, and even than, they are pretty much screwed.Psykers tend to largely be squishier than.. Pretty much anything else, unless they have their protective manifestations up. Their manifestations are really bloody powerful, but they can only do one per round.

Err, not every guardsman has a las-cannon either, what's the point of hypothetical comparison of characters if you stipulate that one of the character is poorly built for the encounter and that the other has not only a top tier weapon specifically chosen to defeat the psyker? I mean, you didn't just choose the sniper rifle/las-cannon with no thought to the fact that the range stops most uses of offensive powers did you?

However we are losing the point of such a thought exercise - the initial point was people were complaining that Psykers could (and do) pump only one Stat. Yes, they get the most out of it, but everyone can do that - and the hypothetical Guardsman was drafted up as a point of what a single point pumped character in another class could do, and how they would be able to destroy the complained WP pumped Psyker.

To deal with the responses:

Telekenetics: Catch Projectile is useless, so nothing listed in Telekenetics is any use.

Yes now that I've mentioned Catch projectiles it's useless because you changed the example . It wasn't useless when it was a hunting rifle, but like I said there's a minor power that halves damage from las weapons so it's a moot point. And don't tell me the psyker can't have that power, minor powers are more or less unlimited in number, WPB minor powers for every psy rating means you'll have more than you could ever need.

Biomancy: Shape Flesh: Fly and than go into High Altitude is viable. Problems: Surprise Round: 5d10+10. 2nd Round: Manifest Shape Flesh: Receive another 5d10+10. 3rd Round: Depending on Initiative you either get away or receive another 5d10+10. These are all Pen 10 attacks, and Biomancy automatically becomes discounted if you are in an enclosed enviroment at all. So assuming the psyker can somehow soak *that* much damage (doubtful), in an open enviroment they can escape. Most likely, they are dead by than.

Like I said, I reject the surprise round as valid for the comparison and where on earth are you going to find such a long visibility for sniping that isn't in the open? "The psyker can't fly because now there's a roof" is again win by GM fiat.

Divination: No, Far Sight lets you cast your sight directly to where you choose to cast it. Ie: 3KM to the west. Your facing is restricted, and you can only see in a normal distance. This takes a Full Action every manifest, and a Half Action to turn your sight. The viability on this is so incredibly questionable its not funny. Its possible, if say, you walk into a giant hive dome and notice there is a singular ledge 2km away and want to check it, but largely this requires the Psyker to be so incredibly paranoid its not practical to be something you can even remotely count upon. You have to be constantly checking everywhere at all times, and this is simply not possible in the majority of situations. The only practical use would be to walk around sustaining Preternatural Awareness at all times, which creates its own issue. However, lets use the assumption that Far Sight is used and somehow spots shooter... You still cannot manifest more than once per round. Divine Shot is only a practical return shot if you are carrying some heavy weaponry yourself. Accurate weapons don't give a bonus since its just an auto-hit no DoS attack. Divination: Marginally useful, however, likely your still dead.

Obviously if you spot someone aiming a heavy weapon on you you'll not come back without serious firepower of your own. Granted it's still a bit of a strech to suppose the psyker get's his own las cannon, but he could just leave once he's spotted the ambush.

Pyromancy: Okay.. And its agreed that he is useless. Barring him walking around as Molten Man at all times. Which I would say.. Seriously? Seriously?

Not at all times, Like I've pointed out several times before this post I reject the surprise part of your example. I know you might disagree but if so I'd like to see some argument as to why it's a valid inclusion instead of just reiterating that the psyker is surprised.

Telepathy: Yes, Projection becomes actually viable. Problems are present however. Guess what? They have no response, or if they do have a response they cannot manifest Projection. I will run with the no response issue since nothing has voided Surprise Attack - Round 1: Surprise Attack - 5d10+10. Round 2: 5d10+10 - Psyker Manifests Projection, falls to ground unconscious. If the Psyker wins initiative here they fall to ground before they are shot.. And thus may not avoid the damage, or mitigate the damage in any way. The shooter will also get bonus BS, so hey, they definitely aren't missing. Psyker automatically will be winning the opposed WP test because they pumped WP, so they may communicate. Round 3: Either the shooter gets another 5d10+10 or Psyker goes first, Psyker gets to use abilities that basically guarantee the shooter is dead.. Assuming that they have survived between two to three hits at 5d10+10. This relies on the fact your GM will even let you use projection - you don't know the target well and its an unwilling target, but since you only are aware you are being shot at 2KM away, can you target something automatically just because its in combat? I personally wouldn't let you since it opens up unlimited cheese if you have *no ability* to detect them, and just can auto target them from out of sight.

Right, let's take a look at that again without the surprise round and other force multipliers you're giving the guardsman (like he knowing exactly where the psyker will be and the psyker being completely in the dark, anyway Las weapons will pretty much lead you to the location automatically) and considering that you're allowed to manifest telepathy powers at the location you're projecting (as intended by T.S. Luikhart, the guy who wrote the psyker rules).

Round one: Psyker doesn't walk into the range of the guardsman but instead manifests projection around the corner. Round two, psyker moves to the guardsman at "the speed of thought" and manifests dominate. Round three, guardsman eats his own Lascannon. Round four, psyker wakes up and performs his happy dance.

Then, let's take a look at your encounter against say, a space marine with typical gear, using your surprise round.

Round one, surprised and takes 5d10+10 damage. Round two, another 5d10+10 damage that the space marine either dodges or doesn't dodge while he moves towards the guardsman. Round four another 5d10+... And it goes on and on until you've killed the marine while he tries to get the required ~600 meters required to retaliate, taking heavy weapon hit after heavy weapon hit. See, it's not the guardsman that kills in your scenario, it's the range, weapons and surprise. The overall situation pretty much kills anyone not equipped with a heavy weapon of their own and is virtually never going to come up in game.

To reiterate, the hypothetical guardsman was a thought experiment pointing out that any character can be viable by pumping a singular stat - and how such a character could be used to trump the "impossible" WP focused Psyker. If you throw them into a random room together and tell them to fight its going to act differently, but I worked with the idea that the BS focused character would be attacking the Psyker and therefore would be maximizing the situation to his benefit. The situation logically follows rather easy - all it requires is a BS character going after a Psyker with long ranged weaponry. Yes, the Psyker will get the most by pumping one stat, but it doesn't invalidate everyone else, especially with party synnergy allowing people to give bonuses and immunities to things all over the place.

Yes, but only assuming he somehow gets detailed information about his target, a viable sniping nest and surprise, something he wouldn't really be able to get on his own. How would he aquire this information with BS? How would BS help him scout out his sniping nest? How does BS help the guardsman spot his target from a kilometer away? How does the guardsman whose only above average stat is BS even carry the LAS-cannon? It'd have to be pretty much the only gear he has apart from clothes with his carrying limit. So no, the situation does not follow from "high BS guardsman".

And anyway, my original point, that no other character class gets as many diverse abilities from pumping his stat isn't even affected by this example. The guardsman can kill stuff with ranged weapons and that's it. Meanwhile the psyker can kill, read minds, control the actions of others, defend himself, fly, gather information, turn off machines and so on ad naseum.

Anyways to move on, manifestations aren't a test - they are like damage rolls. By RAW you cannot Fate them either, its up to GM preference. I would likely favor that people fate them as well instead of the Pheno/Peril roll since it opens up a far bigger bag of tricks (Fate manifest roll, go from 1 9 to all 9's, or all 9's to none) versus the high likely hood of taking a really bad roll and making it into nothing seriously.

Further on I agree myself as well - I look at Psykers being fundamentally fine in game already, they can be penalized to hell via other methods already through good GMing. Changes to the rules are fine, anyone can house rule whatever they want, but the vast majority of house rules I see tend to be poorly thought out affairs.

What's wrong with psykers using their fate point re-roll on the actual manifestation as per the rules? That they might do worse? That's the case for everyone else, what qualifies the most powerful class in the game for special treatment?

God I hate the setup that FFG uses for their forums. I dont know what it is, but it just doesn't like interaction with Firefox.

Like I said however, the initial and main point of the hypothetical guardsman is the idea that Psykers are not the only class that can benefit from Stat pumping. They get the most out of Stat pumping, yes, but the whole 'every other class needs everything' applies to them as well. A WP pumped Psyker is not going to have much in the way of Wounds, STR, T, AGI.etc.etc - so they can't carry much, they can't take hits well (or survive many hits), and they cant dodge hits. The only way for them to do so is through their manifestations. A fully prepped and manifested Psyker is a beast, but Psykers don't just walk around with full manifestations at all times.

The idea was not to say "This build just automatically lets you kill Psykers! Woo!" - there are effective builds that will ruin a psykers day, this is not one of them. The only reason a surprise round was given is because firing at that range is going to grant you surprise round - 1,200m is outside of an effective combat range for damned near everything in the game, and its out of sight.

As for Telepathy, you.. Didn't really choose it singularly, you just said "Every psyker can deal with it in every way!" and I pointed errors in that. The problem with Projection is how its handled in the group. The power lets you project yourself into a targets mind - if its friendly you hop right into there, if its not a friendly you must have some way to handle it. If your GM allows you to auto target someone because they are targeting you, whether or not you can actually see them or know exactly where they are, than anything in the game is screwed. If the GM treats it as "You leave your body and walk around at the speed of light" than you deal with simply retarded levels of power since you could theoretically clear an entire hive of enemies just because you were bored. So I would argue against it being viable for direct combat application against a long distance foe.

I assume the minor power you are speaking of is Endure Flames? That has no effect on Las attacks. Only Molten Man has an effect, which is not a minor power.

"Poorly built for the encounter"? No, I am not saying at all that the psyker is poorly built for the encounter - I am just saying that reasonable lines are being stretched here. Once again, I was not ever trying to make a "Class A Build A is better than Class B Build b' argument. I am not talking about "They are so sneaky that they can get behind a group and lob grenades at them!" I simply am pointing out that an attack fired at such extreme distance is not able to be retaliated to, and that it would automatically ellicit a surprise round. The psyker can have every single ability in the book, but they are of limited use since they tend to require a manifestation and thus they block each other off. Certain powers will be of massive use if he just walks around with them always sustained, but that creates its own bag of issues.

Anyways to continue: Hunting Rifle was in the initial example, but.. So was the las cannon. I used both ends of the spectrum since Hunting Rifles are something that every character can reasonably start with. Getting a telescopic sight or a red dot sight is not hard at all either, and are in the realm of a rank 1 character to be using. MP Las Cannons are the other end of the spectrum - they are late game equipment and thus would not be around till after the Psyker had all these wonderful abilities to make use of. Catch Projectiles is still useless if the first round is a surprise round - aka, if the Guardsman makes a long distance shot. If its a las cannon or a long las, catch projectiles is *still* useless even in a non surprise round because its not a solid shot. If he has endure flames up its *still* useless since that doesn't effect las based attacks.

Biomancy: Take it how you will. I am just pointing out that biomancy is only viable if there is no roof so that they can fly to a high altitude.

Divination: Once again, how would he spot it? Far Sight is not a form of God Sight.

Telepathy: Refer to earlier statements

As I have stated several times, the idea isn't to be put out that "Oh! This build is infinitely better than Psykers!" I am just showing that any class can pump a stat and get something out of it, since players operate in a group, lacking stats can generally be made up for. Psykers, as I stated, get the *most* out of a stat pump, but *anyone* can do it. This is unsurprising since Psykers have the largest application in the first place, since their abilities let them step on every other classes toes with anything that class can offer.

..The problem with Psykers using their fate points on manifestations as per the rules is its not as per the rules. Like I said, thats not a test. Thats a focus power action. Tests are handled in an entirely different manner. You may not use Fate Points on actions, its for tests. Pretty much every GM will allow a Psyker to either fate manifest rolls or fate pheno rolls, but those are outside of the RAW. House Rules are fine, just people should be aware when they are talking of RAW or popular house rules. I believe fating manifest is better than fating Pheno, but neither are supported by RAW. Therefore when people come in talking about how Psykers never have anything bad happen to them because they can spend their fate to avoid it, they have to be aware that the psyker is getting an easier time due to GM fiat, and that they should talk to their GM for it. Psykers are not meant to be "Wizards" or what not, pulling out powers every half a second.

God I hate the setup that FFG uses for their forums. I dont know what it is, but it just doesn't like interaction with Firefox.

Agreed. I'm an Opera man myself but this forum system feels like they tried to reinvent the wheel and made it square.

Like I said however, the initial and main point of the hypothetical guardsman is the idea that Psykers are not the only class that can benefit from Stat pumping. They get the most out of Stat pumping, yes, but the whole 'every other class needs everything' applies to them as well. A WP pumped Psyker is not going to have much in the way of Wounds, STR, T, AGI.etc.etc - so they can't carry much, they can't take hits well (or survive many hits), and they cant dodge hits. The only way for them to do so is through their manifestations. A fully prepped and manifested Psyker is a beast, but Psykers don't just walk around with full manifestations at all times.

You've pretty much conceded my point there, so why are we arguing? Yes, psykers should buy more than WP and psyker related stuff, but they are the singular class that can actually be viable (granted, it'd be a really suboptimal build but still viable) with only mediocre stats in everything except that one stat. That's really the whole point I was trying to make. And your example doesn't touch on that, surprise or no surprise.

It kind of even requires the guardsman to have someone else do everything except the aiming and shooting. He doesn't have the fellowship to use Inquiry to locate the weapon. He doesn't have the skills to get information about the psykers movements. He doesn't have the carrying capacity to move the weapon about and certainly not the perception to spot the psyker walking out in the open at 1.200 meters range.

..The problem with Psykers using their fate points on manifestations as per the rules is its not as per the rules. Like I said, thats not a test. Thats a focus power action. Tests are handled in an entirely different manner. You may not use Fate Points on actions, its for tests. Pretty much every GM will allow a Psyker to either fate manifest rolls or fate pheno rolls, but those are outside of the RAW. House Rules are fine, just people should be aware when they are talking of RAW or popular house rules. I believe fating manifest is better than fating Pheno, but neither are supported by RAW. Therefore when people come in talking about how Psykers never have anything bad happen to them because they can spend their fate to avoid it, they have to be aware that the psyker is getting an easier time due to GM fiat, and that they should talk to their GM for it. Psykers are not meant to be "Wizards" or what not, pulling out powers every half a second.

Wow, after re-reading the section on psychic powers it seems you are right by the strictest definitions of a test. I don't think they intended for psychic powers to entierly beyond fate points so one might as well houserule it. But what part of the manifestation is most akin to the "Tests" of more mundane actions? I'd say it's the power roll, for obvious reasons. It's the part that tests if you'll succeed or fail.

If you're going to houserule it, why houserule it such that the psyker has no chance of doing worse on his re-roll? That's not the case for anything else in the game.

Example: Psy rating 14 psyker (ascension) rolls all his dice for a power and get's one 9. It's better than the average result by so he shouldn't re-roll his manifestation since he'll probably do no better and possibly a lot worse. However, if that same psyker has the option of re-rolling phenomena after they've landed on perils he really should and there's no chance to do worse despite his having gotten a good result on the manifestation. That doesn't feel right.

It also means that you'll spend less fate points on re-rolling since you'll know before you spend fate if the phenomena is acceptable or dangerous. Like an assassin who gets to choose if he'll spend his fate point on re-rolling dodge after the GM announces damage.

And finally, it means favoured by the warp stacks with fate point use for a total chance of perils for each 9 of 25%*25%*25%, about 1.56%. That means a psyker for every power dice he rolls has ~ 0.15% chance to do something horrible, that gives us about 50/50 of no perils in ~ 450 power dice used. It's not going to do anything to limit the use of psyker powers at that point, except possibly when low on fate points.

Graspar said:

I'm not quite sure I follow you here. If the character is a level 4 psyker and rolls one 9 on 4 dice, he probably shouldn't reroll, but if he does there is still a decent chance he'll do better. However, if you make him stick with that 9 and roll on the phenomenon chart - say he rolls 45 and doesn't care for the result because it absolutely gives him away (I'm picking that number out of the air so don't bother checking the chart), he could choose to reroll it but there is a 55% chance he'll do worse the second time, possibly even rolling a peril - thus the danger in his reroll is very real. Similarly, if he rolls on the peril chart the first time, he is stuck with the peril and any time he rerolls it could be very bad. (this assumes my house rule -mentioned previously - that once one rolls on perils he cannot reroll to avoid a peril, only reroll to try and get a better peril if he doesn't like the one he got stuck with the first time)

I would rather make the character stick with the initial roll of his manifest dice and insure he has to deal with the repercussions, than let him reroll and perhaps avoid them altogether. (yes, he might roll more 9s, but he may very well not)

As an aside, having nothing to do with the general discussion here, I don't allow people to take "favored by the warp", I feel if they had to put a power in that severely reduces the chance of suffering consequences for your roll, they might have just as well admitted the system was too dangerous and reduced the number of dice you roll+Thresholds. If you want to roll 6 dice to manifest, why should you get a special talent that reduces your chance to hit a phenomenon? You take a chance when you choose to roll max dice; it's a cost benefit issue - risk phenomenon to get more overbleed or play it safe.

I'm not quite sure I follow you here. If the character is a level 4 psyker and rolls one 9 on 4 dice, he probably shouldn't reroll, but if he does there is still a decent chance he'll do better. However, if you make him stick with that 9 and roll on the phenomenon chart - say he rolls 45 and doesn't care for the result because it absolutely gives him away (I'm picking that number out of the air so don't bother checking the chart), he could choose to reroll it but there is a 55% chance he'll do worse the second time, possibly even rolling a peril - thus the danger in his reroll is very real. Similarly, if he rolls on the peril chart the first time, he is stuck with the peril and any time he rerolls it could be very bad. (this assumes my house rule -mentioned previously - that once one rolls on perils he cannot reroll to avoid a peril, only reroll to try and get a better peril if he doesn't like the one he got stuck with the first time)

I meant that the most re-rolled test (and honestly, the only one that is really bad) is going to be 76-00, perils of the warp. Once you're there you can't do worse than having that same result pop up again.

I would rather make the character stick with the initial roll of his manifest dice and insure he has to deal with the repercussions, than let him reroll and perhaps avoid them altogether. (yes, he might roll more 9s, but he may very well not)

What repercussions exactly? Having people around him forget something trivial? A statue cries blood? Sure, it might in the worst case scenario tip people off to the fact that there's war shenanigans going on but that's pretty much it unless you go on to perils. The point is that if he re-rolls his manifestation he might do worse, get more nines, get no nines or outright fail his power . That's not going to be the case when re-rolling phenomena, at least if the psyker is ony re-rolling significant things (which any smart psyker would anyway).

Jack of Tears said:

The game mechanics don't scale properly without talents like "Favored by the Warp". It seems purposefully added late in the game, at a time when Psykers will have earned a higher Psi Rating.

linearblade said:

Has anyone already done the work of converting all DH powers to use Psi Rating?

Ya, there is a thread in RT house rules that is doing just that. I haven't formed a strong opinion on them yet but it's worth a looksy. The one thing I don't like about the new lines is the lack of minor powers, and some other little nit picks. All in all, I think that it's going to be the road of the future in DH at some point.

Argh. Graspar, definitely feel like I'm going in circles here. Your debating something different than I am debating, and I think we largely agree with the separate points. I am not putting class vs class here, I am simply talking within a group as normal play characters. Every character can benefit in some way from stacking a Stat massively, Psykers just get the most out of it. The biggest reason that anyone can do the stat stack is the group makes up for any shortages. Ie: You have a scum with ungodly FEL, but cant fight worth crap. Well thats fine because the Guardsman has terrifying BS and will rip apart anything coming, and the assassin has crazy WS to challenge things that come close, and the Tech-Priest has crazy STR to tie up things with grapples.etc.etc. Psykers are the jack of all trades because they suffer from the "I am a caster, therefore, magic lets me do EVERYTHING" abilities that quite literally lets them do.. Well.. Anything. The only thing I think it can't do is things like plant explosives, but since you can get an automatic +30 to a test from some abilities, and re-roll, you can make up for things.

However I have no idea what your talking about with the house rule. I already stated that I prefer the method of house ruling manifestations because you can get punched in the ass more. Every 9 means you roll AGAIN on the pheno table, so you can roll again to get off the power or try to reduce 9's, but since every dice has a 1/10 chance of phenoing, this still puts you at risk. House ruling you can reroll on Pheno table makes it a hell of a lot more relaxing since you have to roll a 9 in the first place to *get* pheno's, and than its only worth spending a fate when you get either the float pheno (oh god that sucks), or peril. A lot of the pheno's are thematic, non-punishing, and un-directed.

Argh. Graspar, definitely feel like I'm going in circles here. Your debating something different than I am debating, and I think we largely agree with the separate points. I am not putting class vs class here, I am simply talking within a group as normal play characters. Every character can benefit in some way from stacking a Stat massively, Psykers just get the most out of it. The biggest reason that anyone can do the stat stack is the group makes up for any shortages. Ie: You have a scum with ungodly FEL, but cant fight worth crap. Well thats fine because the Guardsman has terrifying BS and will rip apart anything coming, and the assassin has crazy WS to challenge things that come close, and the Tech-Priest has crazy STR to tie up things with grapples.etc.etc. Psykers are the jack of all trades because they suffer from the "I am a caster, therefore, magic lets me do EVERYTHING" abilities that quite literally lets them do.. Well.. Anything. The only thing I think it can't do is things like plant explosives, but since you can get an automatic +30 to a test from some abilities, and re-roll, you can make up for things.

It would certainly seem that way. Truce?

However I have no idea what your talking about with the house rule. I already stated that I prefer the method of house ruling manifestations because you can get punched in the ass more. Every 9 means you roll AGAIN on the pheno table, so you can roll again to get off the power or try to reduce 9's, but since every dice has a 1/10 chance of phenoing, this still puts you at risk. House ruling you can reroll on Pheno table makes it a hell of a lot more relaxing since you have to roll a 9 in the first place to *get* pheno's, and than its only worth spending a fate when you get either the float pheno (oh god that sucks), or peril. A lot of the pheno's are thematic, non-punishing, and un-directed.

I was trying to make tha argument that you shouldn't make your house rule "fate lets you re-roll phenomena" but rather "fate lets you re-roll manifestations", I didn't get that you prefered that method too from your posts.

My o my! I feel honored that my posts get so much attention once I switch over to a adnd 2e campaign for a bit lol.

I would like to chime in on a few things, since yet again the 'What if my guardman is like 10000 miles away with a super awesome weapon' commet, that ALWAYS appears every single post about how psykers are not in fact broken...

So lets look at the possible ecounter types for 1 versus 1 (unlikely!!!) matchup of guardsman versus psyker.

I would like to point out for the record, that if your guardsman gets gear, my psyker gets gear too.

Short range. (ie psyker can kill you range)

Psyker Gear isnt so important here. I'm assuming the guardsman has something that will kill him if it hits usually. tho not 100% of the time.

Guardsman loses iniitiative. psyker kills him. GG.

guardsman wins initiative. guardsman may kill psyker. failing to do so means the psyker WILL kill him. psyker may or may not have shields, or chameleon, the auto win initiative spell, or any other number of reactions that make your guardsman inneffective (even likely to be so)

Net result? psyker wins ATLEAST 50% of the time (assuming they have the same init... which there is no reason to assume they wont)

If guardsman surprises psyker, he might win. if psyker surprises guard, he WILL win.

mid range fight, IE one that a psyker may not be in range for his heavy gun powers.

Guard wins init, AMD surprise!! maybe he kills maybe he doesnt. Keep in mind now, guard no longer has short range or point blank on his side, and the psyker will LIKELY have chameleon power (puts you at long range), maybe the divination one too. lets say 50BS +20 full auto, -30 range = 40% chance of 1 hit.

Hope you instead have your long las or mp lascannon? k so then if accurate with laser sight (debatable if scope would remove range, I am asusming it doesnt, and if it does, your psyker would just use the divination power to do the same thing)

so lets see, 50BS + 10 accurrate + 10 dot -30 range. Doesnt sound like too many degrees of success.

still boned.

Psyker does some stuff, maybe he just heals his damage , or he buffs up. or he casts molten man , negating your energy advantage. Keep in mind if you have a las cannon, he gets power armor or something as well. its likely the only weapon to harm him at range will be a las cannon, or a lucky auto cannon shell.

Now that he has removed your damage and can react to you, he teleports / walks / flys/ invis his way towards you. MAybe he has a rosarius too. (your guardsman can have one too!) you miss a bunch until you are in kill range. he kills you.

if psyker wins initiative, its the same thing as above, he just gets to kill you 1 round sooner.

likely outcome? psyker wins atleast 50% of the time, again. IF NOT MORE. btw, psyker can just divine shot you, or if you feel thats cheating, he can snipe your dead with your precious guardsman long las. because he gets all the abilities you get too.

Long range.

better hope you can kill him in 1 round. because the psyker can heal your damage, or negate your damage, or make it imppossible to hit him. only the FULL TIME pyro loses here. If that pyro took say biomancy, you are pwnt. if he takes telekinesis, you are PWNT. if he takes anything really, you are PWNT.

you as the guardsman will rely on your superior ballistics, but you will be at a disadvantage, because you will always be at range, or psyker will be blurred, and cannot heal yourself. The psyker on the other hand will have less ballistics (maybe, thats not guaranteed) , but will also have a scope, giving him advantage. he also gets to heal himself, or buff etc. he could also have the dreaded divine shot. who knows, he could start dominating people close by and using them to charge you and attack you.

unless you 1 hit kill him, I think the psyker will win (unless ofcourse you are the WEAKEST psyker build, the full time pyro)

I'm not going to do the excessive math on this, because everyone here can run the numbers and see that I am right.

It is likely that in a ballistics contest the psyker will be 10-20 points behind at the MOST. Psyker gets the same gear options for armor and utility as a guardsman.

So unless we are comparing full armored guardsman to BUTT NAKED psyker in a 2000meter long football field with spot lights on for perfect illumination (in which case the psyker still likely wins), the guardsman has little chance.

So yes, the guardsman is inferior to psyker in combat.

Oh btw, if you foolishly think your guardsman wins in melee? Look up the 'las cannon sword' post. ofcourse, the psyker is only playing with his food if he decides to melee in return, since he has 10 different ways to auto kill you.

Linearblade - Er, keep in mind the "'What if my guardman is like 10000 miles away with a super awesome weapon' comment" thing relates to gear you can get from start of the game. Long-Las and Hunting Rifles are rather cheap, and Assassins can flat out start with them. The Guardsman thing isn't so much required as just meaning a shooty char in general. "Super awesome weapon" only applies as its upgraded, thus a start of game and end of game example was supplied. These are not something you can counter from Go with available equipment, the only counter is situationally/environment. Nor will a Psyker have abilities at Rank 1 that will negate this. By time you talk a MP Las Cannon you are speaking more late game, which means its actually viable to assume a Psyker will have all these abilities at his disposal. If you want to give him gear, sure. What would you give the Psyker? How about the best armor in the game - Power Armor. Great. Its AP is less than the PEN of a MP Las Cannon. And its 3x as expensive with equal rarity. Make it best quality power armor? Okay.. Its *still* less AP than the PEN of a common MP Las Cannon. Hell, a Guardsman with a Long-Las that has a Hot-Shot Charge is still an extremely viable threat - Best Quality Power Armor gives 9AP, a Hot-Shot through a Long-Las (without any talents to boost its damage, and there is) can do up to 3d10+4 Pen 4. So a range of 7(Pen 4) to 34 (Pen 4). Assuming the Psyker has a, even high, Toughness (lets give him 30 or 40) he has a soak of 8-9.

Notice how its kind of skirting the line despite the massive level of disparity?

However, your looking at it in *entirely the wrong way in the first place*. Classes are NOT designed to go one on one with each other. The idea of my example personally was not to say "X is more powerful than Y", since well, thats silly. There will always be a tier system. If its comments beyond that, well, I wasn't aware my example came up so very often. Psykers are ungodly strong. Everyone knows this. Thats.. Pretty much part of the point. The issue that is best personified by Psykers is that they are the wild card element; they can step on EVERYONES toes very easy based on how they build their characters. A WP pumped psyker gets easier manifestations and any opposed manifestations are guaranteed wins (A rank 1 Psyker can get .. What, 70WP if he is allowed to selectively design his character. This makes it pretty hard for anything that is not Unnatural WP to oppose him, and even than, he has a decent shot). Via manifestations and different schools he can pretty much do anything. Kill stuff? Sure, take a damage focused school. Be a god damned walking tank? Sure, take biomancy. Be crazy scholar? Their INT is easy to raise, they get great access to Lore abilities, and can access abilities that give them a +30 to non-combat checks. Be close combat guru? Sure, Force Blades are crazy (likely your Las Cannon sword reference), and you can easily combine that with a Psy-Blade for the ability to kill almost anything in the game. Want to be essentially artillery? Big weapon and Divine Shot. Social guru? Abilities forcing some amiableness. Yadda yadda.

The problem instead I find is that people end of handicapping the (limited) self control method that Psykers get - if you let them fate their Pheno/Peril rolls, chances are nothing bad will happen to them. Let them fetter/push? Woo. A high WP starting Psyker can forever fetter and never worry about abusing his abilities. Additionally two other problems present: GM's don't enforce the setting constraints, thus letting Psykers get away with even more (the passive part of the limiter to psykers active pheno system). Pretty much nothing in the setting responds well to seeing Psykers work, *especially* when pheno/perils result. Corruption/Insanity 1-100 system only applies to PC's and major characters (as GM decides), so those innocent bystanders you accidentally gave a point to? Maybe they went hopelessly insane, maybe they started a Chaos cult, maybe that Banshee Howl heard for a KM got a witch-hunter (or hundreds) after you. Similarly maybe those psyker abilities you are using aren't so discrete, the warp doesn't tend to be after all. Beyond that using abilities actively promotes psyniscience checks, which means maybe you are getting interested parties that shouldn't be interested in you. Yadda yadda.

The psyker running around dropping powers everywhere is powerful as hell, yes. That is the point of them.

Anyways, to deal with combat situations lets actively oppose them as if we are fighting a foe structured exactly like a PC:

Close Combat? Guardsman uses Grapple. Psyker may not manifest any abilities, only action he may take is Grapple. To get out of Grapple, he must beat Guardsman in a Strength test. Psykers tend to have sh*tty Strength. Alternatively, if he uses any weapon that has Snare, Psyker is likely to be similarly pooched. He has to make an AGI or STR test to get out of it, and may not manifest in mean time. GM may allow otherwise for both, but this is as per RAW. However beyond GM value is Shock based weaponry. Shock requires a Toughness test mitigated by armor. Psyker got great armor? Likely useless. But Psykers don't usually have great Toughness either. Stunning sure sucks for them, and if they get stunned.. Sure, charge em next. This fight range really comes down to what powers the Psyker has, if he's walking around with full manifestations, and who wins Init being the big part.

Not literally close combat but close range? Snare weapons still largely apply, only a few close combat weapons have snare and more of them are thrown or shot. Shock weapons are of limited value since shock is almost always only on melee weapons (or whips but thats pretty damned short range). Here, depending on what you call short range, you are going to be largely determined by equipment, who goes when, and how far in the game it is. *MOST* psyker abilities are *VERY* short range, as in, they are in the same range bracket as Thrown weapons. What discipline psykers are still play a HUGE part, because.. Some powers massively favor this kind of range over others. Surprise: If a psyker focuses on being a damage/combat powerhouse, they will be a damage/combat powerhouse. As for Psyker gear not being important? Er, hokay. Short Range means that the Guardsman is always going to be benefiting from Short Range modifiers. The problem becomes what are you talking for short range? With a rifle he's going to find it easier to get those extra DoS, and do huge damage. With a rapid fire gun like an autogun, well.. Psykers likely screwed unless he has active manifestations and/or great armor. Chances are likely Guardsman will kill Psyker unless the Psyker has already spent multiple turns putting EVERYTHING up, if he wins initiative. Likely the Psyker will also kill the Guardsman, if he wins initiative.

Mid Range: Directly offensive damage abilities of Psykers that have a range beyond 10m: Soul Killer is likely to be a huge one, and honestly its not a greatly balanced ability. Range is variable, its 5m x WB, so on average at least 35-40m. Fire Bolt: 100m, Fire Storm: 50m (another not greatly balanced ability), Force Barrage 10m x WB (another not greatly balanced ability, looking 60-80m), Force Bolt (10m x WB, so 60-80m). Soul Killer, Force Barrage and Fire Storm are likely to be the flat out killers. Fire Bolt is going to be dangerous as hell also, as well as very reliant on Overbleed. Force Bolt damage is likely to be soakable. Anything other than those are not useful in more than 10m. Sure, Telepaths can project but first they must actively project (losing all manifestations they have up), and than may not use an additional power to the next round. So at least one free shot till Psyker can do anything. If the Psyker wins initiative and manifests, if the Guardsman isn't dead and returns fight, Psyker does not get a reaction manifestation. If the Guardsman fires first and the psyker uses a manifestation to react, he may not manifest on his turn. Which makes for a boring stale mate until someone fails a roll. Keep in mind Point Blank best benefits shotguns and automatic weapons, while short range for a rifle is 75m or less, meaning that generally the Guardsman can keep out of most abilities range and still be short range.

Chameleon doesn't generate range, it just gives a -20 penalty to BS tests, so using your same stats at anything above 75m the guardsman is: 50BS + 10 BS aim + 10BS RDS +10 accurate - 20BS. So vs 60. To attack in response the Psyker can only use: Fire Bolt, unless he has at least 8WPB in which case he may use Force Barrage or Force Bolt. If its less than 75m, its vs 70 for the guardsman and same rules apply to Psyker manifestation. You gave Guardsman surprise, so if its over 75m he rolls vs a 90. If its under 75m he rolls vs a 100. Annnnd, you cannot use any reactions in a manifestation round. Assuming statistically average roll of 50, he gets 4-5 DoS, so he gets to make that 3d10+4 Pen 4 with a Long-Las. Pen 4 means that anything less than carapace is negated. Carapace is not beginning gear for a Psyker, nor affordable.

Reactions that are viable versus a Long-Las, assuming reactions are allowed: Precognitive Dodge. To reiterate, if a Reaction is used and a Manifestation is made, you may not Manifest that turn again. Therefore Psyker has to dodge, which means he better have decent AGI.

The ONLY OTHER ability I did not mention was Divine Shot, which allows an automatic hit. I did not mention it because its extremely variable: Divine Shot does NOT allow DoS, it just causes a success. Therefore you may *NOT* benefit from the Accurate rules of the weapon. You can still deal damage, but Guardsman is going to be doing more damage and likely able to soak more.

As for other stuff:

"Psyker" does some stuff? If the Psyker does anything this means he may not make an attack roll till next turn. So, if he heals damage.. The guardsman shoots him again. If he buffs.. The guardsman shoots him again. If he casts Molten Man.. Than yes he takes half damage from LAS weapons. Keep in mind what this means: His equipment is destroyed and he gets no TB or armor. Thus he has 0AP, and must rely on his natural soak. He also has to be a Pyromancer. We will assume his GM lets him pick from the DoTDG book as well. So: Long-Las with Hot Shot is, (1d10+4)/2 to (3d10+4)/2. Assuming no DoS, the Long Las does 5-15 damage, or being nice and rounding down (I personally always round up, but I don't recall if rules say you HAVE to) thats 3-8 damage. With 2 DoS thats 7-34 damage, rounding down again making it 4 to 17 damage. MP Las Cannon is 5d10+10, so 15-60 damage, or 8-30 damage. We will assume that the Psyker is happy to actively destroy his equipment, and ignore that means its a distinct possibility that he wasn't wearing high AP gear in the first place. MP Las Cannon is going to put him into criticals more than likely, and considering if the Guardsman gets the first shot he doesn't get to soak it (No AP is high enough), he can only use Precog Dodge (its an energy attack), stopping himself from using Molten Man next turn, and if he *doesnt* manifest and *does* use Molten Man, he ends up taking the NEXT shot again, which kills him. Molten Man also ironically means no defense against solid weapons, so if the guardsman was using a hunting rifle it wasn't practical. But I will stick with the long-las or mp cannon as per example.

As for the can do whatever: he cannot teleport, only teleport would be projection, which means he loses molten man and any manifestations. Flying requires time to work, and thus he is open to free shots, and doesn't get to attack from out of range of the Guardsman still. He cannot Invis himself since that requires you to be in a very short range to actually become invisible. Walking would mean he would die. And.. He has a Rosarius? Oh god, now he has power armor and a rosarius? D: Jesus christ. If he we are going to play the WALKING EQUIPMENT FACTORY game why don't I just say that the Guardsman has best quality hexagrammatically warded power armor, meaning he has 18 AP against psyker abilities, additionally lets say he has a Psy-Jammer, Resistance: Psychic Powers, Strong Minded, and Mental Fortress. That means he has +30 to resist Psyker abilities, may reroll failed WP tests, and anyone using Psyker abilities on him must make a WP test lest they suffer 1d10+WPB-WPB bypassing AP and TB. Assuming even basic 30WP he gets a 60WP plus reroll for opposed checks with the Psyker. He also gets an Angelas with Psycannon bolts. Huzzah, for a 50m sacrifice he gets a base 2d10+ Pen 5. This is also an accurate weapon, so it does up to 5d10 Pen 5. Keep in mind the fun part now, these are Psycannon bolts, so they ignore actively defensive psykery. Psy Shield does not work, Catch Projectiles does not work, only responsive ability is AGAIN Precog Dodge, which means the Psyker cant do any manifesting the next turn. If the bullet does ANY damage after TB+AP is applied, that damage is doubled. Critical hits add +5. At this point its likely that the Guardsman also has the ability to make a called shot without any penalty. The lowest damage that can be done by a 5d10 Pen 5 shot is 5, at Pen 5 assuming it actually hits Armor the most armor can soak is 4, so it automatically does 1 damage past armor which must be made by TB. Anyone will soak one damage. The most damage this shot can do is 50 Pen 5, which means that the target is automatically dead. If the Psyker is AT ALL put into criticals, he automatically dies. The +5 means you jump straight to Critical 6 if he hits crit -1; therefore, instantly fatal. If you apply it at 0 wounds since he is entering the tipping point, he is stunned for 1d10 rounds and may only take Half Action for 1d5 hours. So, he's dead.

Or hell, why not be more generous? Lets give everything a targeter. That drops the difficulty bracket by one - that is, all the -20 from Chameleon and such become -10. Or give the character a heavy bolter instead. Its got 20m more range than the Angelus, is a 2d10 Pen 5 weapon and its not accurate, so you lose the +10 from that, as well as the ability to aim (since its now Automatic firing is a full action). Huzzah! That -20 penalty is made up by firing Full Auto. Which means it does 2d10 Pen 5 to 12d10 Pen 5, still using Psycannon Bolts. So 2 Pen 5 to 120 Pen 5.

This is why I am playing it lighter on the equipment, because stuff can and will get retarded if we just give the go ahead to grab anything. Long-Las and Hunting Rifle is practical and available from the get go. MP Las Cannon is late game gear and a hell of a lot easier to find than pretty much anything else listed there. Its easier to get than even Light Power Armor, so a character that WANTS to be really shooty is pretty damned likely to have it by the time Psykers are high enough to use essentially EVERY ability which is what is being proposed.

As for Long Range:

Biomancy does ****. Flight is viable to get out of range, but its not easy to say "And therefore your ******." Why? Because the Psyker has to manifest Flight. Than run to get out of Range. Than he must re-enter range to do anything. Pyromancy? Dead. Telekinesis? ..What qualifies as long range here. If we are talking as to Long Range/Extreme Range of a Rifle, thats 300-600m. Force Barrage and Force Bolt are the abilities here, so to hit from what qualifies as outside of normal rifle range requires a WPB of 30-60. Unless your talking different long range stuff, since I am unsure of what you mean. Even at the standard range (75-299), it requires from 8 to 30 WPB. Divination lets him use Divine Shot, so he can use the weapons base damage on an attack. Telepathy lets him project himself directly, which is still risky, and assumes the GM will allow them to use it as a generic response without actually seeing where the hell they are going to jump to first. As for dominating people close to him? He can dominate one person per round, and may spread his Action among those people. So if he dominates two people and moves them both forward a half movement, than he... Cant move. If he dominates one, and does ANYTHING with it, he can no longer use Full Action abilities. If they are that far away, he .. Cant really do much via domination.

Keep in mind your adding more variables, the entire point of this idea initially was pointing out a WP pumped Psyker versus a BS pumped Guardsman. WP pumped Psyker = hideous WP, but not as likely to be insane BS. BS is also cheaper for Guard. Assuming he has high BS means its unlikely he has Divine Shot, or he could, and than having high BS is redundant. If he has high BS he is.. Shooting, so manifestations "ripping me apart" are unlikely. This also means melee psykers or what not do not apply. Initially pointed out is also that its quite possible to pull a one hit kill, surprise round fairly guarantees its likelihood.

TLDR Segment: What does this GIGANTIC WALL OF TEXT COME DOWN TO? The same bloody point. Anyone can be effective at **** when they pump one Stat, the Psyker will get the MOST out of it, but he is not a walking machine of Win as a result. Psykers are at their deadliest when they are prepared and walking around with full manifestations. If you are being allowed to constantly walk around with full manifestations in game than .. Your GM is silly. It better have a damned good reason for that. When we talk of "This class wins versus this class!" we invariably impose some setting. In saying that "Guardsman with CRAZY RANGE versus Psyker", I work with the idea that the Guardsman makes use of his crazy range to do so. Much like I imagine the Psyker will make use of whatever his crazy abilities are. If you just pull a "And they are both thrown into a room randomly without any warning!" than it massively depends on the build of the psyker, their equipment, and who gets initiative. The Guard going "lol full auto" with an autogun (what he starts with) is a perfectly viable thing for a HELL of a long time (for new players heads up : autogun is one of the most cost effective weapons out there, I would highly recommend hunting rifles or long-las similarly). If they are just randomly tossed in a room we assume they both have no prep, so Guard neither gets Aim nor Psyker gets manifestation. A good full auto burst *IS* killer for most things in the game.

To reiterate since this became an issue before, its not designed to be "X IS THE KILLER OF Y", it was simply a point out of "A BS pumped character can be GOD DAMNED EVIL as well". If you want to make a "X IS THE KILLER OF Y!" than it just requires dickery. Its perfectly viable to simply generate a character that has Untouchable, and now the Psyker can make no use of his much vaunted mind. Oh no. Than its an entirely equipment focused battle.

Hurr Durr: Manifestation round = Surprise round, and I rounded up by habit. Drat. And angelas does 4d10, so 4-40 damage. Bolts are also tearing, so I forgot that in both Angelas and Heavy Bolter. Heavy Bolter should also be 20d10, not 12d10. So 20-200 damage, for 30m less than Hunting Rifle or Long Las. Also forgot MP Las Cannon is 300m instead of 150m, so it becomes up to 1200m, not otherwise stated distance.

Herp derp. This is why I hate rattling things off, end up forgetting something.

a few counterpoints.

1) I agree there will not be a football field where the two combatants show down. BUT if you agree he is not prepared to fight, then you MUST also agree that the guardsman is NOT prepared to fight, therefore it is likely that the long range combat would not occur, unless one was hunting the other. In which case the psyker WILL win (because he will be prepared with divine shot, and you will be dead), and the guardsman may only possibly win, as he actually has to make a ballistics test.

2) I agree that low level psyker (levels 1-2) loses. level 3 psyker gets discipline. and now he owns you.

3) melee range grapple!? ARE YOU KIDDING ME? Turn to page 197. please look at the section under Grapple. you will note this is a FULL action. (page 189), THIS MEANS YOU MUST BE ADJACENT TO HIM, AND THAT THE PSYKER WILL NEVER HALF ACTION MOVE AWAY .

ok steps to SUCCESSFULLY grapple. (page 197)

step 0) somehow back psyker into a dead end, that allow no escape but through you, or surprise attack him in melee range. K.

step 1) WIN initiatie. 50% chance.

step 2) HIT your target. lets say you are super awesome ninja guardsman. 50 WS. 50% chanc to hit. now you have 50% x 50% = 25% of getting this far.

step 3) psyker has 30 agility (he never bothers to pump, confident in his godliness), he tests to avoid. 25% (chance to reach step 3) x 70% (chance that he doesnt avoid = 17.5% chance.

So lets get this straight. the guardsman has 17.5% chance to win initiative , AND grapple. AND assume the psyker never escapes (which was not included in this simple example) AND!!! starts the round adjacent to you...

Do you know what happens on the other 82.5% of the time? Psyker wins.... what exactly am I missing here? Psyker needs 1 spell to kill you.

Now lets look at your snare gun.

1) win initiative. 50% chance.

2) hit, lets say you multi talented guardsman ALSO has BS of 50 in addition to having WS 50. chance to hit, 50%... chance to win init and hit = 25%

3) Snare, page 129... IF YOU HIT, you must now test agility or be immobilzed. psyker still has 30% dodge... 70% to land the web so 25% x 70% ...

chance to snare at normal range w/o a aim action = 17.5% ... looking strong for the guardsman.

now lets give the guardsman some bonuses, IE aim (+10) and point back (+30) (he backed psyker into a dead end, or surprised him)

1) win init 50%

2) hit, 50BS + 10 aim, + 30 PB = 90% chance to hit!!! = 45% chance to make it to step 3.

3) 30 dodge. == 70% chance to not dodge == 31.5% to snare at point blank range, aiming at his chest...

I'm failing to see where my logic holds up....

The best likelyhoold for sucess against a psyker in melee range is to have lightning attack and attack him 3 times.

1) win init 50%

2) have a two hander, and 50WS, attacking with a best quality weapon, giving you 60% chance to hit. lets assume only 1 hit kills the psyker (not likely to be the case, since you will do 2d10 + 5 (why not give your guardsman 50 str, in addition to 50 bs and ws LULZ) + 2 crushing blow, +2 (he also has crippling strike ...2pts average) = 20 damage average per hit, so certainly possible to knock him to unconscious, maybe kill on high damage roll.

chance to miss first swing (**slight** miscalculation in guardsman favor on lowering potential dodges for psyker, thus the chance to hit is actually LOWER)

swing 1 : 40% to miss + (60% to hit x 30% to dodge) = 58% chance to miss first swing

swing 2 : 58% we missed first kill shot x 40% we'll miss again(he used his dodge **possibly**, on 1st attack not counting it later) = 23.2% to miss swing 1 and 2

swing 3 : 23.2% we missed first 2 swing * 40% we'll miss again = 9.28% chance to miss all 3 times!

that means we have a 90.72% chance of hitting atleast once!

accounting for winning initiative 50% of the time, that means that we have a 45.36% chance of winning init, AND disabling the psyker, ASSUMING WE SURPRISE HIM IN MELEE, OR HE IS IN A DEAD END.

If we only get 1 swing (we won initiative, and moved in to attack once) that means we get a

swing 1 : 40% to miss + (60% to hit x 30% to dodge) = 58% chance to miss first swing, or 42% chance to hit x 50% for winning init = 21% chance to DISABLE on 1 swing.

************************************************************************************************************************

So you can see, the psyker has better than 50% odds of crushing you in melee combat, or in point blank snare gun range at all times, more like 75% or more.

I even gave the benefit of starting combat in melee or point blank range, and even then he still loses using snare or melee (1 hit kills)

I wish in the attempts at arguing this you understood the system better, it certainly made it easier to do with the last guy. Though that came down to a "agree to disagree thing" because we were arguing different points... Which is what is happening here, again.

Regardless:

1) Yaargh. Yes it was fairly blatant I was using the "Guardsman is hunting PC" thing, because that's where such things become relevant. It cannot be logically argued that they suddenly pop up a billion miles away from each other. Neither character would be aware of each other at a 2 kilometer distance without active reason to be aware of the other. If we say "If X is hunting Y" than the inverse (Y is hunting X) is not necessarily true. However it just comes down to once again, the idea is not that "Guardsman > Psyker" nor "Psyker > Guardsman", it was a random throw away example of what a high BS pumped character is capable of doing, and in doing so, have a way to completely dominate psyker without any fear of sufficent reprisal. Like I said though, even the agreement of "They are both not prepared to fight" is weak because Psykers dominate when they have the prep work established. Toss them both in a room at short range with no prep on either of their parts and its going to get messy.

Secondarily, how do you prepare with Divine Shot? You don't "prepare" that. If you mean he can just turn around and divine shot than he still faces some limitations, those being:

a) Divine Shot does not allow DoS. The main reason that Accurate weapons are so incredibly dangerous (or likewise, Automatic weapons) is degrees of success. Divine Shot works best with heavy artillery style weaponry because they deliver huge damage in a singular blast.

b) "As he actually has to make a BS test"? Yes.. And the Psyker has to make a manifestation test. It was established it was not very difficult for a high BS character to hit via the numbers you yourself provided. Similarly I doubt the Psyker would have great likelihood that they would fail their Manifest roll. However, Guardsman unlike Psyker gets to make the roll twice if they so wish - you can Fate a BS test. You cant fate manifestations.

c) Divine Shot is not an automatic homing shot. This comes down to DM-ness so I left it last, but you do have to be actually aware of someone to use Divine Shot on them. Your GM may let you just fire it off and auto hit, but its not so much a "Oh I got shot? Okay, uh, I manifest Divine Shot and return fire." "Uh. Okay. But do you know at all where he is?" "Yeah, somewhere over that-a-way I guess". Yes, you auto-hit them, yes, you actually have to be aware of them to make use of this.

2) Assuming the Psyker takes a discipline that is useful to him in that specific situation. Psyker having one discipline ability does not equal they have all discipline abilities. They are not all created equal, nor are they all created for all situations. Many of the more dangerous ones only become truly dangerous as hell when they Psykers are higher in Power Level because they can make manifestations easier. Its not going to be very showy if a Psyker hits his first Discipline, chooses something incredibly dangerous... And fails to manifest it

3) Uh, you do know Grapple can be initiated from a Charge right? The line right before that is "You can attempt a Grapple with either a Charge or a Standard Attack". But if we are just going to pull random numbers out of our ass for everything is accomplishes little, I can point out that for every single time that the Psyker keeps trying to manifest something, especially using his full power dice, he has a chance of messing himself up bad to the point of possible instant death.

Initiative is not just 50% this way or 50% that way, that would only be applicable if their initiative is tied. I however did point out that the Guardsman being able to pull off a Grapple is dependent on him winning initiative. Really, whoever wins Initiative is likely to be the one who is going to win the encounter in pretty much every situation. WS is also relatively easy to raise, and a 50WS Guardsman gets 60WS for a charge, or 70WS with a Brutal Charge.

Disregarding that Snare Guns are ****, I reiterate - we cant just really make up Initiative numbers. We can state that one will win it or the other will win it, but we cant assign a percentile to a weighted number. Also disregarding that there would be no reason for him to not use a RDS (versus 100BS in your example than), and if he had someone "surprised at PB" he would gain +30 from that, giving him enough bonus that he would both cap bonuses, and would be over 100BS chance.

Regardless, I focus the question in a different manner. What the *hell* do you really think your debating at this point? I am still blatantly saying I am not trying to make this a "Class A versus Class B" battle because its bloody pointless and daft to do. Yes, if the Psyker decides he's going to go Full Battle Full Time Psyker he's going to be a ***** to deal with, no not everyone does that, no that does not turn him into a universal unstoppable killing machine of doom. Psykers get more out of pumping WP than any other class, but any class can pump a stat for great benefit. Hell, a Scum or Cleric could FEL their way into getting a small army on the Psyker with the right build, but it becomes redundant because that's not how classes were meant to be prepared.. *AND* at this point we are giving the Psyker ability to access every single ability in the book simultaneously, apparently.

ED: Argh, why would you split up your posts? Just make one post. A single Grapple negates the Psyker. A Great Weapon does not, therefore, its less likely to be wide ranging application. It also sets a specific level range that must be reached before it can be viably talked about, because the Guardsman has to be able to get it, in addition to all the random little things added on. Keep in mind that WS tests mean that you can use A) Blademaster, B) Fate, and thus two of those hits can be rerolled.

as for why psykers having just 1 stat to pump (IE WP), it is obvious to me.

for the guardsman to compete with the psyker, he needed high strength WS and BS (you can argue he would need 2 of the 3) but now your guard is looking fairly weak everywhere else...

for the psyker on the other hand, he needs WP. a high WP allows the psyker to :

:::General:::

get more spells when he increases his psy rating, as higher WP gives you more bonus spells on gaining the talent for higher WP.

:::Combat::::

1) hit you with ballistic spells using his best stat

2) hit you with melee spells using his best stat

3) not bother having to hit you, since he has an auto hit spell

4) auto manifest all but the most high threshold powers, in which case its like a 2% failure chance on spells

5) increase his damage, since most dark heresy spells are WP based.

6) get extra attacks for certain attack spells due to making the overbleed easier.

7) not bother having to dodge bullets because of TK shield...(auto dodge!! yay)

:::social:::

1) cast suggestion giving you a +20 to charm based tests ... why bother pumping fellowship when you can cheat with minor powers!!

2) mind scan. Why bother interrogating, when you can 'plunder their mind freely'

3) compel your targets to tell the truth or answer your questions!

4) throw away that micro bead... telepathy instead

:::stealth:::

1) chameleon

2) see me not

3) wall walker

etc etc etc

****************************************************************************

so while your tech priest fails every stealth check known to man, and cant even talk to people , likely your guardsman too, and assassin etc. the psyker can be Death incarnate and be rogue and face all at once. (well 2 of the 3 certainly)

Please demonstrate to me with math that I am wrong.

Even if you can charge, it is irrelevant, because I START THE GUARD OUT NEXT OT THE PSYKER IN THE EXAMPLE. I gave you the best likelyhood of success, you are right next to the psyker... guardsman still doesnt win.

everything else via divine shot is irrelevant, I didnt even bother to address it. If you want me to I can.

Really, whoever wins Initiative is likely to be the one who is going to win the encounter in pretty much every situation. WS is also relatively easy to raise, and a 50WS Guardsman gets 60WS for a charge, or 70WS with a Brutal Charge.

Wrong.

add +20 to his test for charge and brutal on, guardsman is still at 24.5% to win init and hit,. whereas the psyker can autocast pretty much any spell to autokill, and nearly auto cast the rest (5%? and wreck you with near certainty)

I should also note, that you dont have to optimize very hard to wreck people with powers. unless you are making psykers like horrible unsanctioned psykers in the back of the book, pretty much any psyker will spank you badly.

It should also be noted as per grapple, if your opponent has a weapon in hand, you get a -20 as per unarmed combat... "instead of inflicting damage with an unarmed attack..."

step 0) somehow back psyker into a dead end, that allow no escape but through you, or surprise attack him in melee range. K.

step 1) WIN initiatie. 50% chance.

step 2) HIT your target. lets say you are super awesome ninja guardsman. 50 WS +10 charge and +10 brutal. 70% chanc to hit. now you have 50% x 50% = 35% of getting this far.

step 3) psyker has 30 agility (he never bothers to pump, confident in his godliness), he tests to avoid. 35% (chance to reach step 3) x 70% (chance that he doesnt avoid = 24.5% chance.

(condensed into post above for convenience sake)

Of course, this all requires the player of the Psyker to focus their development in the direction of a Combat Twink from Munchkinland. Personally, anything a player can come up with, I can trump and still remain within the rules.

-=Brother Praetus=-

Okay, I have to ask. What exactly are you trying to argue for at this point? I've stated several times that I am not trying to make this a discussion on "Class A vs Class B", it has stemmed from a discussion that a WP pumped psyker is the only class that can benefit from being single Stat pumped. I proposed the BS pumped Guardsman in response, and gave him a throw away scenario where he would be able to take down a Psyker and the Psyker would be helpless to do *anything* in response - ie: the massive range battle. When you try to make "Class A vs Class B" arguments in DH it falls apart because *that is not how the game is balanced*. It would be like me arguing that an Adept is crap because he cannot beat a Guardsman, yadda yadda.

No-one has *ever* stated confusion over what a Psyker gets out of WP pumping, and I already stated that they get the *most* out of pumping one stat, thats obvious. However I do *not* believe that it makes them automatic combat gods. Psykers are powerful, yes, they are designed to be powerful, and that is why every single time they roll a manifest they have a 10% chance of getting Pheno. Pheno's generally aren't too big of a deal, but Perils can quickly mess someone up, even if they are a low % of happening. Its the trade off they get, and something they risk when they go around pulling out powers willy-nilly as being described. No-one even argued against any of this. In fact, I have acknowledged it. The fact stat pumping leaves holes in other stats is obvious, however, its relatively inconsequential because who the hell plays one person games? The Guardsman cannot be all wonderfully talky, but hey, the group has a Cleric or a Scum - problem solved! Guardsman in the first place do not provide a great face.

Though I do have to point out, TK Shield is nice, but not that great until much later in the game - it definitely doesn't constitute an auto-dodge. Similarly the munchkinized huge WP psyker is going to be a Darkholder with Living Nightmare. The + social abilities means he *maybe* cancels out his own inherent negatives to social situations, though he's going to be really bloody low still. Any other build can pump WP still, but that is by *far* the best WP build and usually where people get problems, because that's where you can find a 70WP Psyker at rank 1.

To continue with the facepalm:

The Guardsman does not need high WS, S and BS. I am *not* trying to make "Class A Killer" - Psykers are strong, as I have said, and that is why they have tons of hard counters in the book. *No other class* gets so many "and if its a Psyker, multiply damage/ignore AP.etc.etc.* abilities. Hell, if anyone wants to legitimately ruin Psykers day's all they have to do is take Untouchable or Sin-Scarred. One flat out negates them, one largely negates them. Huzzah. From Rank 1 to Rank 9 Psykers now can fundamentally do **** to them. No-one else gets to roll "Immune to Bullets" or what not.

The Grappling situation was a mention of possibilities, depending on Stats of character. Grapples negate Psykers entirely, because a Psyker cannot Manifest during a Grapple. Yes, you lower the percentage if the Psyker has a weapon in hand, but if we are speaking of this walking death machine psyker that has every possible ability at once, I .. Really wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't even bother to take out his weapon. He doesn't necessarily need quick draw, and apparently a single manifest will kill the opposing target. That aside, if we are going to propose Init its quite likely neither side is ready, therefore, either or both of them need to draw weapons as opposed to everyone walking around with weapons out at all times. However, stuff like this becomes very situational, so leaving out.

Anyways, if you are so close you can charge and grapple and the psyker has a weapon out.. Why not just.. Automatic fire? I mean, hell, even if he's *directly beside the Psyker* (which is a worse starting ground for engaging grapple because charging gives a benefit to the roll), that just means its infinitely more effective to unload, and unloading with a gun is where the BS pumped character gets an advantage. Huzzah, now he has something that will likely screw the Psyker over from point blank still only using one ability. A good roll means lots of hits, lots of hits means either the Psyker has to manifest a reaction (meaning he cannot manifest on his turn), or he takes at least some hits.

We are making up random numbers and characters. Initiative is not a 50/50 bet, which therein lies why I said "You really cannot weight it like that" - and since you cannot weight it like that it automatically destroys your entire percentile scheme, especially because its usually the biggest way that it thrown one way or another. If the Guardsman has a higher +init, he can automatically win the roll. Similarly the Psyker. Anyone can fate to roll auto 10 on the Init.

As for your steps: Being that close does not require "Backing someone into a room so that they cannot escape", since, you know, Charge has decent range and actually means your in the best range for Psykers to respond. Also keep in mind that by just throwing in "Or you Surprise him in Melee range" completely changes your own situation. Surprise = +30 for roll, Psyker may not use a Reaction, and Guardsman automatically goes first. Which means he is going to be pretty likely to automatically Grapple. However assuming you read my entire post, are you now agreeing that a Psyker is likely to be ineffective into the Long and Extreme range? I see only close combat, short, and mid range at best here.

As Praetus stated, the responses required above requires combat twinked munchkin Psykers. Who, as I said, are really bloody powerful in combat. Because that is how they are designed to work. Its really not any sort of a shock or surprise to anyone. They stand out incredibly highly, and they have hard counters in the game that automatically remove their advantages (ex: Untouchable). If someone is munchkin running a Psyker, it can get annoying, but there are many ways completely within the rules that limit or destroy their ability to respond.

:::General:::

get more spells when he increases his psy rating, as higher WP gives you more bonus spells on gaining the talent for higher WP.

Just to be clear, you do not gain powers retroactively when you WP goes up. You only gain them when you buy a Psy power upgrade.

:::Combat::::

1, 2) Depends on the power.

4) auto manifest all but the most high threshold powers, in which case its like a 2% failure chance on spells

No matter what you always have to roll 1d10 to manifest a power. You can always roll that 9, even on an auto manifest.

7) not bother having to dodge bullets because of TK shield...(auto dodge!! yay)

TK Shield is not a dodge. You stop a number of rounds that would enter your bubble, up to your WP bonus. This doesn't stop energy weapons and a stormbolter will bypass the TK shield in no time, as will multiple opponents.

:::social:::

1) cast suggestion giving you a +20 to charm based tests ... why bother pumping fellowship when you can cheat with minor powers!!

You still have to make a Fel test, a +20 doesn't guarantee anything.

2) mind scan. Why bother interrogating, when you can 'plunder their mind freely'

You have to have time and the victim gets an opposed WP test every step of the way.

3) compel your targets to tell the truth or answer your questions!

If I recall correctly Compel doesn't do this.

4) throw away that micro bead... telepathy instead

Telepathy is one way, so you have no way to be contacted by your associates.

As to everything else, you, like a lot of people, seem to think the phenomena and perils are few and far between, and seldom come up. I find this greatly amusing.

Just remember: You can only manifest one power a round, sustaining increases the threshold for every power you are sustaining, and manifesting counts as an attack action.

I don't have time to read through every single page, but why do people seem to think that "unfettered daemonhost on feudal world = doomed planet"?

First, a daemonhost can't be in every place at once and cannot take over the planet.

Second, daemonhosts are not "kill everything." Depending on the daemon, it might not even stay on the world at all. It might start a religion. It might do nothing whatsoever.

Third, enough massed firepower, even primitive, will kill a daemonhost. An average unbound daemonhost has 30 Wounds and an 8 TB. In a straight fight, a feudal army will kill it with volleys of hundreds of arrows, while suffering massive casualties, assuming they don't all run away.