I'm trying to compile all the psyker balance rules into an easy to read thread, so for people who have games where the psyker is out of control powerful, or maybe the rules as is just dont seem right have some options....

Obviously there are some power nerf spells, and I guess we can spell them out here too, but I was hoping for more like rules fixes.

I think the most popular one I've seen so far, and happen to like myself is :

Replace all instances of will power in a power description with 'Psi rating used'

-It is important that ALL aspects of a power that are tied to will power are changed over to Psi rating, otherwise, a psyker fetter casting (lets say psi rating 2 or 3, will power 7) dominate, still beats the psyker push casting dominate with a psi rating 9. Obviously damage, range , etc also apply here for the same reasons.

-Also, most combat skills require 2 stats, whereas the psyker really only has 1 stat.... Successful Ballistics tests gets its damage determined by the weapon being used. Melee tests get a weapon damage MODIFIED by your strength score. psyker with high WP, neither has to make ballistics tests or melee tests to hit, he uses his WP, he further doesnt have to care about his strength score, as he relies on his will (force bolt, the biggest offender), and he doesnt really need his psi rating, as a psi-3 with 7wp/power well can manifest force barrage 95% of the time or better.

We could say that psyker powers are not all combat orientated. and true some minor powers are not, as are some majors... but for the most part, its all about killing people.

Limit or remove overbleed altogether from fettered casting.

-To use a dnd 3.5 analogy, how can you fight defensively and power attack for full!?

Minor Powers dont invoke perils of the warp

-This isnt really as much of a problem with fettered casting for pcs... however I posit that if you had even 1 latent psyker on every planet, and only 1 was born once per decade, and they all only cast their power once before realizing they should wait for the black ships to come and take them to the empra to be eaten at snack time... that the Imperium as a whole would be a big empty place, full of Unbound daemon hosts. Yea, latent psykers get major powers, but we can just pretend they dont destroy whatever planet they are on, unless there are PC's walking around.

Alternatively, I all freshly made Sanctioned Psi rating 1 psykers being produced would also destroy the Imperium, merely on the basis that they could not fetter their power. So therefore, I reccomend.Minor powers shouldnt be able to manifest perils... leave it at warp phenomena.

Statistic capping for games with those Willpower 7+ psykers?

-Not as hard as you think, getting 37+ on a starting roll, getting either sanctioning bonus or tarot reading, void born, and the mind cleansed package, will get you a starting WP of 50+... +20 for stat ups, now your in the 70s, taking ascension gets you another +10 in statups, and potentially another +10 in starting packages for ascension getting you to 90+ without having unnatural will power... ewwww...

How hard is it you say to get a 37+ or a 40 starting characteristic? Not terribly hard... that is, given that you get 9 rolls, and 1 reroll giving you 10 shots at a 40, which is slightly less than 10%. [insert formula here]. Given that for all rolls of 37-39 in WP get 2 more chances to become 40+, and any stats from 34-36 get a chance to collect both the tarot reading and sanctioning will bonuses, its a close shot to 10%.

I would further posit, that unless you are choosing your career path BEFORE you roll stats, that your characters probably arent making sub par psykers (and nor would the empra accept them anyway), so therefore Im guessing only the character with the wicked will save in the group is taking it. so that gives you for shots at a 10% psyker... Ofcourse, you can always try the tried and true, 'accidentally die so I can make a new character maneuver' ...

if you are using Rogue trader, then your STARTING STATS are 25. even easier to get 40+... then again WP isnt quite as good in Rogue trader...

In short: Not that hard!

What would be a good stat cap for PCs, if there was one?

Re-write the Powers that can be over abused

- I dont like this one, it requires a lot of work, and furthermore, I think most of the spells in the game are fine, until they are abused by a high will power psyker.

[saving space for additional ideas]

Does Anyone actually NOT like the Rogue trader / Ascension Fettered Casting ideas? Any alternative ideas to make psykers more friendly yet still capable of killing themselves and any locals off in the viscinity?

[Reserving some space in case this thread gets some traction, and I need it to put more down]

What I did with my psyker is that i made an "Warp Instablity" system. Basically, You have an instability rating equal to your willpower bonus. This number is the amount of Failed Psykic power rolls you can make per day. Acended powers always add 2 to the in terms of instability, failed or other wise. Once the psyker exceeds his instablity rating, for each Power roll above it you add ones number that causes Psycic Phenomenon. This rating resets after a 24 hour period broken by restful sleep.

For example, Joe is a psyker who has 43 WP. This means he has an Instability rating of 4. Joe has failed 3 power activations today, and he wants to try and activate "Kick-A** Power of Stuff" psycic ability with a thershold of 16. He rolls his power roll and rolls a whooping three. Another failure! However, being the foolhardy man he is, Joe tries again. This time, as he has exceed his Instability Rating, and thus now 9's and 8's count for causing psycic phenomenon. The Gm is to add numbers every time he tries to make a power roll.

What does the forum think?

PS: this is un modified WP bonus for those using Unnatural Stats (i don't, that stuff just blows up in your face!)

linearblade said:

There has been only one thing that bothers me about the Fettered level of manifesting powers in Ascension . It basically removes any point of having the talent Psychic Supremacy as written ( DotDG page 26). Now, there is a simple fix for it; allow the talent to work at the Unfettered power level once the character has ascended.

-=Brother Praetus=-

linearblade said:

I'm personally not a fan of it, for two different by interlinked reasons.

1: It allows people to cast powers with literally no chance of failure. Now, to be completely fair, I'm not one of those lolrandumb "OH NO 90 a dAEMON ComES RAwr AlL DaAD TPK!" type of DH GMs, but I do think the Warp is inherently unstable, fickle, and that every time a psyker uses his/her powers they are running the gambit of momentarily letting their guard down and Bad Things happening.

To me, that is a fundamental element of what makes a psyker: The terrible risky superweapon which could at any moment (in theory) kill us all. The necessary evil, so it were. Without that, I may as well play a DnD Wizard, and start casting Magic Missile at will.

2: You can already fetter your powers. It's called "rolling less dice than your Psy Rating", which you have always been able to do since the original core rulebook. That always seemed like a fair enough system, to me. You roll less dice, and have consequently less chance at phenomena. Less power, less risks. If you wanted anything deeper than that (as I assumed people would, it's an important aspect of psykers), there's enough talents floating through the various rules to augment those powers.

The only reason RT needed a fettered/push table was because the psychic system didn't use power dice. DH already had that built-in.

The Hobo Hunter said:

I'm with you my man. I really dislike the psyker systems that have been introduced since DH. Before it was genuinely dangerous to be a psyker. Now there is absolutely no risk. I'm not a fan at all.

Brother Praetus said:

For myself, I was thinking of houseruling "Psychic Supremacy" as the default "Fettered" setting. I hate absolutes when it comes to Psykers, IMHO there should be no free tickets when one tinkers with the warp.

Meatpuppet said:

So, you're talking "fettered" power usage would only ignore a single rolled 9? So, would a Psyker with Psychic Supremacy then be able to ignore a second rolled 9 at the fettered level by your idea?

-=Brother Praetus=-

Brother Praetus said:

Since last posting I have played around with this Idea.

T.S. Luikhart, the original author of the Psychic power rules, once proposed an interesting houserule for those who wanted to nerf the Favoured by the Warp talent : You may remove a single 9 from any Power Roll. The removed die neither adds to the Power Roll, nor triggers a roll for Psychic Phenomenae.

This could be easily ported to a "fettered power usage" houserule without making the Psychic Supremacy talent pointless.

So Without Psychic Supremacy, a psyker manifesting a Fettered power can remove a single 9 from any Power Roll. The removed die neither adds to the Power Roll, nor triggers a roll for Psychic Phenomenae.

With Psychic Supremacy a psyker manifesting a Fettered power can remove a single 9 from any Power Roll but the number still counts towards beating the power’s Threshold.

Meatpuppet said:

My problem with this:

If you can only 'fetter' at psi rating 5, what about all the lower than psi 5 psykers? See the problem I have with not having fettering... The universe blows up... That to me is unacceptable... I played in a game where the NPCs didnt suffer from Perils and PCs did, and let me tell you, nothing is more frustrating than NPC psykers getting a free ticket, On stage (ie in front of the PCs) or off stage (doing stuff in general daily use)

Remember, a Psi rating 1 psyker is just as capable of summoning The daemon host as a psi 5 psyker is... it just takes slightly longer.

I think Psychic supremacy was an early attempt at fettering powers... Then they made fettered casting, which made way more sense.

The Hobo Hunter said:

I absolutely agree on this point, however the problem with the current perils system is thus. Rules as Written... Psi rating 1 Joe psyker CAN and WILL blow up the any planet he is on some point. If it is a hive world or forge world, their maybe be sufficient tech on the planet to stop the daemon host , and only f its a stupid one.

the feudal world however is doomed. Feral word maybe not, but probably too. This tells me the system is wrong.

Also, since it is RAW, we have to assume that the "OH NO 90 a dAEMON ComES RAwr AlL DaAD TPK!" GMs do exist, and thus the system must have a fix.

Alright, We got some good ideas for alternate 'fettered casting'... I like it!

We are getting alittle off topic however with Perils of the warp rules, so lets push back this way:

What do we do with the actual casting gameplay... Lets assume that the psyker is able to cast his spell (survival is not relevant I think)

It would seem we have 2 camps here:

1) If you rock the super weapon, you deserve what you get... IE LIMITED, or NO fettered casting :

Do Psychic powers need to be hit with a nerf bat at all in this circumstance?

2)The super weapon shouldnt always be fired on maximal... IE. FETTERED CASTING.:

-What do we do about Pychic powers now? Do they get nerfed down a bit? What are the rule changes that would need to be implemented in order to make more 'group friendly casting'

- Is there a group here that thinks fettered casting existing powers 'as is' under the current system IS NOT completely out of control broken? (think force barrage, psychic sword , force deflection... the whole telekinetic discipline in general)

linearblade said:

I must admit, as I play a Psyker in a campaign, my views may seem a bit biased.

As the game setting sits, if a Psyker overuses his powers, then BAD things generally tend to happen.

What I have seen in game is GMs who decide that Psy powers are too powerful and they decide nerf the Psyker without warning, by adding additional chances to invoke perils. All this does is tend to make people angry enough to quit playing the game. Recently I was in a game where the Psykers had the effect of a weakened veil, but with none of the benefits of one.

Most of what I've seen when people think Psykers are broken, is it's coming from people (GMs sometimes) who either don't understand the rules, or GMs who have players who try to abuse the rules.

For example, if you think that your Psyker player in your group never invokes the warp, is it because he's that lucky, or is he cheating and abusing the GM and his game?

From everything I've seen regarding the game, the DH rules make sense. Psykers gain the fettered ability only as a Primaris, as by then they've finally gained enough experience with the warp, to gain a better control of it. In RT, Psykers get it right away, but remember that they're the equivalent of level 5 DH characters at that point, and abilities tend to come a lot slower in RT than in DH.

I have seen a number of posts on this thread. And not enough to want to change the system either way.

One last thing. A Psyker's last refuge for avoiding problems with the warp is using Fate points to either reroll a bad result or to burn them to avoid a really bad result on the second chart. In the game I play in, I have been unable to retain more than 3 FPs, as there's always some poor fool that I'm having to heal to keep his sorry butt alive. This isn't a once in a while occurence, as the group has come to rely too much on my Psyker's abilities as a healer, and often as I've had the team leader continue to urge me to do the healing, instead of people just avoiding the **** stupid damage in the first place! Other players in the game have managed to retain 6 or more FPs. Going into Ascension, I can tell which way things are likely going to go long term.

I don't think you can use a FP on a Power roll or Perils table. FP allow you to re-roll failed 'Tests' not power rolls or perils, just the same as you can't FP a damage roll or a grenade scatter.

Radomo said:

I think you are correct on Perils table, but I seem to remember you CAN reroll damage (its an exception to the rule if I recall)

You cannot reroll damage by RAW. RAW DH allows you to use fate to :

-Re-roll any one failed test, the results are final. (Most GM's allow Psykers to fate their pheno/peril roll, but by RAW they aren't allowed to)

-Count as having rolled 10 for Initiative

-Add DoS to a test

-Instantly recover 1d5 wounds

-Recover from being Stunned.

Psykers can mitigate their power somewhat by rolling less dice than their psy rating, there is just no immunity to perils until Ascension unless the GM lets them make use of Ascension rules. Personally I would say if you really want to have fun with psykers give them the ability to push; sure they can pull off some crazy stunts when they roll well, but guaranteed pheno? Ohh it gets games interesting fast. :3

Rakiel said:

Source: Errata V3.0 04/23/2009

In the Using Fate Points section on page 185, the first listed use of Fate Points, “Re-roll any one failed Test,” should be changed to: “Re-roll any one Test.”

True but damage rolls are no Test. A Test is usually something you roll and that can succeed or fail. They merely removed the "failed" part, allowing you to reroll even successful Tests in order to achieve much higher DoS.

Tubben said:

Well, in the quoted part you said "(Most GM's allow Psykers to fate their pheno/peril roll, but by RAW they aren't allowed to)". Thats why i quoted the Errata.

But we could discuss if the rolls on the pheno/peril table is a test.

I would allow players to burn fate on every dice roll. It's not like they could do this very often

Yes, and by RAW they .. Aren't allowed. Even with Errata. Pheno/peril isn't a test, your not checking to see if you pass/fail or anything, your simply rolling the results of the psyker messing up. Most people allow it, like I said, in the interests of the group surviving instead of "herp derp dice killed us all", but its not a test and therefore not allowed by RAW.

Rakiel said:

per RAW, DH core rulebook, p. 218:

Under the heading "RUNNING DARK HERESY"

Act as the referee You are the final arbiter of games rules in all circumstances.

The entire paragraph goes on to basically say the GM has full choice of how to apply the rules as written. So when I say my GM allows the players who are Psykers to use fate points to re-roll Psychic Phenomenom, then he is full within his right to allow players to do so, RAW.

As a player, if I have spent several hours to create a Psyker. The I have played this particular character for several sessions. Now to have one set of bad rolls and have to lose that character, when every other class has a way to spend fate to find a way to survive, then I would have quit this game a long time ago.

I recently came up with an idea for a house rule for psychic powers, the goal of these changes is to keep a bit of the insecurity and danger of the RAW DH rules, while bringing over the nice bits from RAW RT. Tell me what you think:

As basis I use the RT rules for DH as described on pg. 172 of the Rogue Trader core rulebook in the box: "Psychic Powers in Rogue Trader and Dark Heresy".

To this, I added the following rules:

1.) When Fettering the effective Psy-Rating is rounded down, not up as usual, so a Psyker with a Psy-Rating of 3 will have a Rating of 1 when fettering. This means that a character with an effective Psy-Rating of 1 can not fetter at all or automatically fails at manifesting a power.

2.) Overbleed is thrown out. The effects that are normally covered by Overbleed may be achieved by manifesting the power with a higher Psy-Rating, but I still need to work on the details here.

3.) Threshold is replaced. Instead, for every 5* points by which the Threshhold would exceed 10*, the effective Psy-Rating is reduced by 1 when manifesting that power.

So a power with a threshold of 21 would require at least a Psy-Rating of 3 (or a Push) and even then it would be manifested as if the psyker had a Psy-Rating of 1 (21 exceeds 10 by 11, meaning -2 Psy-Rating). In this example Fettering would also not be an option, as the effective Psy-Rating is 1.

*: These numbers might need a little tweaking.

Since these changes would mean that becoming a Primaris Psyker is not an as awesome jump for an Imperial Psyker as it would be according to RAW, I am thinking about giving them some other advantage, like reducing the loss of Psy-Rating when using high-Treshhold powers or something similar.

Anyway, I tried to get the best of both worlds. An experienced Psyker does not have to fear to be eaten by the Warp while lighting a candle with his powers (as he can Fetter), but using better powers means the Psyker has to take off the safety wheels.

Denmar1701 said:

Well.. No ****. I believe I have stated several times that its a common thing, but its not done by RAW - so when people bring up "OH MAN YOU CAN JUST FATE AWAY PHENO ROLLS AND THUS ITS NEVER A PROBLEM" they should be aware that is simply a common house rule - if that's creating problems, speak to the GM about it and just enforce RAW that you cannot re-roll a pheno roll. When you pull the Rule #1 (which is in *all* RPGs, *ever*) that the GM say is final say than that automatically says everything that ever exists is under RAW. I could say as a GM that if you roll five Emprah's Fury the Emprah's eye is on you so firmly you ascend to become a Primarch and rule over the galaxy forever after happily. Its a daft idea, and its supported in so far that the GM has final say over everything, but it doesn't mean the RAW itself will support the idea.

That rule is a GM fiat, saying "If someones going to rules lawyer, your the Judge and Jury. Modify these rules in any way you see fit to make your game better/smoother.etc".

I fully support rerolling Psyker pheno rolls. When I played as a Psyker, it made it a hell of a lot easier for me, but it also makes me able to manifest a *hell* of a lot more.

As a player, if I have spent several hours to create a Psyker. The I have played this particular character for several sessions. Now to have one set of bad rolls and have to lose that character, when every other class has a way to spend fate to find a way to survive, then I would have quit this game a long time ago.

After you loose your character due to perils, burn a fate point and voíla. Character un-lost.

You never get to spend a fate point to "find a way to survive" regardless of class. Only to re-roll tests (which sometimes helps survival), heal 1d5 wounds, recover from stunning or automatically get a 10 on your initiative roll. You don't get to spend fate points on stuff the world around you does, such as damage from enemies when you miss your dodge or what the warp does when you botch a roll. Spend your fate point to re-roll your power roll instead, which IS a test.