18 hours ago, feltipern1 said:

First, I would heartily disagree with Ensnare Nantexes being "absolute gatekeepers". Also...

(...)

6) Vultures in a list like this would be fairly poorly equipped. You could fit a maximum of three with ESC and Struts as the other half, since your most likely Nantex candidates, Chertek and Sun Fac, are going to cost you (assuming Ensnare is stapled to each), a total of 127 points. That's with only Ensnare on each.

That's why i said:

"Now, if the Nantex really would displace the meta so much that you are forced to field medium or large bases"

using subjunctive.

It is not clear yet, how much of a footprint in the meta the Nantex ultimately will do.

6) I should have been clearer. And left out the word "accompanying". I was also thinking about the matches, where your slightly more Natex-resilient medium/large ship list, with poor agility overall, now meets the non-Nantex mass calculate, relay or mass ordnance Separatist swarms, melting rather fast due to all the calculate and/or probe droid modded shots, by teching too much against tractors.

8 hours ago, dunhop said:

Why do we even need to have an argument? How about we have a discussion on our difference of opinion? The amount of hatred that you have thrown out at our newest toy seems unhealthy. I get that you don't like it by the hundreds of posts you have in every thread even remotely discussing the Nantex. Yes this ship is irritating, how about we wait until after worlds to see how it dominates the meta before declaring it OP? In my local area everyone has deemed Sun Fac not worth the points and moved on.

8 hours ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

Vipers plus stuff: Why field the Viper(s), then? Especially competitively? Just field the other stuff.

Vipers plus ordnance : Also known as “make your first shot your best, because you could very well never get a second one.” And again, we get to the same as before... bother take a Viper, then? Kimo’s aren’t that impressive, but their fat butt can’t be tractored as easily. Y-Wings are (still) the better small base ordnance carrier. Indeed, Passive Sensors is about the only reason to consider a Starviper for a torp.

Because the 'Vipers are still mean-nasty knife fighters.

It's the same thing I'd say about modifying a TIE/v1 force or force element to allow for Nantex; the fact that you might want some range 3 ordnance to give you a leg up against Nantex doesn't mean you can't out-knife fight everything else you're likely to come across. Starvipers are still one of the best close-in fighters in the game; but on the occasion you come across something which for whatever reason you'd rather engage from range 2+ (Nantex, but also Captain Phasma, 4-LOM, Supernatural Inquisitors, whatever) packing a torpedo gives you a meaningful tactical option you would not otherwise have.

8 hours ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

It’s an argument, because whenever anyone says that playing against the Nantex isn’t fun to play against, blocking it should stop it’s tractor array, move it’s tractor array to the system phase, etc., someone responds with unhelpful suggestions like “fly moar betterer”, or “just use thuh ions at range 3!” Or they whine that the terribads are trying to nerf the **** out of their new $20 toy.

As someone who's been flying a Bughouse Swarm of Gravitation Deflection Nantex with ne'er a copy of Ensnare in sight, I think that if the ship has a problem, it's mostly that talent.

• Yes, there's an argument that Pinpoint Tractor Array should be 'fully executed', but - without Ensnare in the picture - it's not that big a deal. It certainly feels no worse than something like afterburners' boost-when-stressed or adaptive ailerons 'skin-dancing' through obstacles without losing actions by going aileron/blue move or aileron/move in the case of gas clouds, fine-tuned controls doing much the same thing for jedi, or the ludicrously low cost of the BB Astromech for the basic T-70 generic.
• I can roll myself after bumping (it will almost always be a roll since if I bumped logically I hit head-on and I can't turn when boosting so that will almost always fail since that's where your base is), but must rotate when I do, and still lose my dice-modifying token, and will be tractored and at -1 defence dice. Even with gravitational deflection, unmodified green dice aren't that good, and whilst rolling off you will probably get me a shot unless I've buggered up arc direction, it's a lot less garuanteed I'll get a shot without you getting a shot back, and that's going to hurt a lot - normally the ship that blocked you is at least one attacker you're safe from.
• Unlike normal 'free' barrel rolls and boosts, you can park yourself on an obstacle if not paying attention to how much space you have.

By comparison, I've played one quick-build game with four Hive Guard. Quick Build Hive Guard get ensnare, and playing with 4 copies of ensnare on the field just felt nasty; granted it was both of our first encounters with the ship and my opponent openly admitted "I forgot they could do that" when ensnare triggered the first time, but my opponent barely got a shot off, let alone doing damage.

1 hour ago, underling said:

My first attempt will be with my four I3s with Crack Shot flown a little better than I did last week.

I was facing Chertek, Sear and about five empty droids. I was ahead until the last turn, and ended up losing by three points.

I specifically targeted the droids first, with Sear and Chertek coming under fire last.

The next time I play a list similar to that and Nantex and/or Sear will be the first targets off the table.

I'd recommend that. Chertek is a massive threat to the Vipers, both with his higher initiative and Ensnare. Plus he doesn't have calculate on his action bar so you're not triggering TA-175 by killing him.

Even if you basically have to feed him a 'free kill' on one viper in order to take him out, I think that's probably a pretty fair trade, because if you don't, you'll be too busy trying to avoid being ensnared to fly the vipers properly, and if you can't use your pinwheeling snowflakes of death to full effect, you can't expect to outfly the droid swarm.

Just a thought on the Viper. It's probably one of the best ships at stalling an engagement, range controlling it's enemy and collectively, creating instant R2 killboxes. If you want to shoot at a Nantex from R2/3, it has a leg up on a lot of frames when it comes to doing that.

4hp does not require ordnance to pop it at that range.

I mean sure, you get it wrong and your whole list is now toast, rather than just the one you've elected to die, but still. Completely writing it off as done and dusted, without practising the engagements, seems OTT to me.

14 hours ago, Biophysical said:

That article only loosely applies to the Nantex, because it can move your ships and has a turret and you can't stop its repositioning by blocking it. Basically, it does way more damage than traditional aces because it tractors stuff and has a much higher time on target.

To me, your article shows a good way to handle the Nantex as that ship really needs to be in close to work it's magic. If all your ships are really close together, it becomes a lot easier for the Nantex to really excel. I've seen most X-wing players are used to concentrating their ships together to maximize firepower. I believe when fighting the Nantex, it would work in their favor more to spread out. If your ships are spread out in the manner you describe in your article, the Nantex can really only dodge one or two arcs and get close to one ship. If the rest of your ships are at a distance and can still get shots no matter where the Nantex Boosts or BR's than you are doing well. It's not the only way to handle it and it's not a perfect way, but it is a good strategy to take.

3 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Because the 'Vipers are still mean-nasty knife fighters.

I think knife fighters are the ones that are most hurt by the Nantex. High Init Nantex are direct counters to many knife fighters. Not impossible to win against, but it becomes a lot harder.

41 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

If all your ships are really close together, it becomes a lot easier for the Nantex to really excel. I've seen most X-wing players are used to concentrating their ships together to maximize firepower. I believe when fighting the Nantex, it would work in their favor more to spread out. If your ships are spread out in the manner you describe in your article, the Nantex can really only dodge one or two arcs and get close to one ship. If the rest of your ships are at a distance and can still get shots no matter where the Nantex Boosts or BR's than you are doing well. It's not the only way to handle it and it's not a perfect way, but it is a good strategy to take.

It's a default rule for engaging anything vaguely ace-esque, I think. People tend to default to concentrating ships, rather than arcs of fire, but if you've got a bunch of ships closing in a firing arc on a target, then it's very hard for it to avoid incoming fire compared to a squad flying in in a 2x2 brick. That goes double for the Nantex - one of the downsides of "move me/move you" instead of "double reposition" is that you only actually move yourself once - which makes it a lot less likely you'll be able to dodge fire from ship #2 and #3 (and potentially #4 and so on, depending on your opponent's squad).

44 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

I think knife fighters are the ones that are most hurt by the Nantex. High Init Nantex are direct counters to many knife fighters. Not impossible to win against, but it becomes a lot harder.

Agreed. But the observation I was trying to make was that whilst that leaves, say, Mauler Mithel in serious trouble, the TIE/v1 and Starviper are comparatively unusual in that they're expert knife fighters that can also pack a sniper rifle. Packing torpedoes or missiles doesn't invalidate their role as knife fighters, and against anything that's not a high Initiative Nantex with Ensnare, they remain pinwheeling kings of close quarters. But if you do face a squad containing Sun Fac - or anyone else you'd rather not tangle with up close - you have an alternative available.

I have two points about the Nantex.

First point is Sun Fac, Ensnare, PTA, and everything in the Nantex pack is costed and worded fine as is. The Nantex is the epitome of a high risk/high reward platform. Without Ensnare PTA is perfect the way it is. It gives you the option to reposition, and maybe attack after you bumped, but at the cost of reduced agility. That is a fantastic tactical choice to have to make. I concur that Ensnare on an upper initiative Nantex is a rough combination, but it is far from unbeatable and not without its drawbacks. Beating it requires some counter intuitive flying, but the three key factors are:

1. Positioning so the Nantex enters range 3 from the non-turret side. This forces the Nantex to either give up a shot for extra defense or to sacrifice defense to shoot. Either way you still have a shot on the Nantex, and green dice eventually fail

2. Positioning so the Nantex bumps from the turret side. If the Nantex bumps on the turret side, the geometry usually doesn’t work out where it can PTA and get the bumping ship in arc. This again sets up a difficult choice for the Nantex to either set up for the next turn where it will be at a significant disadvantage in the current engagement phase, or to stay where it is and not be shot.

3. Shoot the Nantex first. In most games I’ve played with a Sun/Chertek/Grevious, Grevious has always been the first target, even when a shot at a Nantex is available. I don’t know if its devil you know vs. devil you don’t, but Nantexes die in a moderate breeze, so if you get a shot on a Nantex, take it.

Second, the outrage against changing list building techniques to counter the Nantex is ridiculous. Certain builds and list types are counters to others. There was an article about that very topic on FFG in the build up to second edition - jousters beat turrets, turrets beat arc dodgers, arc dodgers beat jousters. This is just a new take on that – Nantex beat aces, aces beat big ships, big ships beat Nantex. There are 68 ships in the game with over 300 pilots. People are so hung up on the small base high aces and low generics that anything that suggests you fly something else gets greeted with disdain. Get off the Vader/Soontir/Wedge/Guri/Anakin high horse and start giving other things a try. Who knows, you might find something cool.

@JJ48 We've definitely opted to pay up front for the longer argument.

1 hour ago, Asaverino1019 said:

Get off the Vader/Soontir/Wedge/Guri/Anakin high horse and start giving other things a try. Who knows, you might find something cool.

The biggest thing this is missing is that it isn't just Aces which get hosed by Nantex. It's pretty much *any* small base ship. A list I've had some fun with is a 4-ship scum--Talonbane, Serissu, Graz, and Viktor Hel. They'll get owned by Nantex, since they'll just be tossed out of the way. Cheap ships like TIEs and Vultures have a decent chance of getting 1-shot.

"Fly something which isn't an ace" really misses the point that if I want to give small-base jank or efficiency jousters a shot, Nantex is just as good against that.

Any other ship? If you block them, they can't shoot you and are stuck where they landed. Nantex will often be able to move off, avoid getting shot, and shoot the blocker with agility reduction. If they're Chertek or Sun Fac, they also get bonus dice or mods. No part of that is fine. It's probably a bit of hyperbole to say there's no counterplay against Nantex, but it's absolutely true that counterplay against them is vastly harder and significantly less effective than counterplay against other ships.

//

I'm probably not quite as "blow them up" as some folks. Phantom-level nerfs are really probably what would be best. Doesn't kill the Nantex. Makes a Nantex player have to work a bit harder in listbuilding, and work a bit harder not to get blocked. That's not excessive, just fair.

1. Pinpoint Tractor Array should be "fully execute." Maybe it'd be fine to be just "execute" if Ensnare didn't exist, but Ensnare giving Nantex the potential to bump, move off the block, and still get a shot against a reduced agility target is, frankly, bull****. You say you like high-risk, high-reward? That's really not what the Nantex currently is. The fact that PTA works when you bump or fly over an obstacle is wicked low risk for pretty solid rewards.
   1. Corollary: I'd probably require every "fully execute" ability to be turned-off by flying over obstacles. It's as much BS when Jedi get movement actions, or TIE Defenders get Evades. And I love TIE Defenders. I don't think it's unfair to require players to dial in decent maneuvers to get all their tricks.
2. Ensnare up a little in cost (maybe some base-price, but mostly Ensnare). Init 4 Ensnare ships should hit the 51 point breakpoint. If someone wants to run four copies of Ensnare in one list, they should have to go for Init 3. I mean, folks can't run 4 Juke Phantoms anymore--they can run three, if they make enough cuts to the list, and that's fair. Likewise Nantex. Ensnare Sun Fac should go up a bit. Juke/Whisper went up from 56 to 64, and I think a similar 8-point total increase to Ensnare Sun Fac would be reasonable.

I'm not too upset with FFG for messing it up. These are really strange ships, and probably hard to balance without a lot of table-time. I don't think they need to be nuked, I don't think everything relating to tractor tokens needs new rules. But they are a bit too powerful for their cost, and they work a bit too reliably.

1 hour ago, Asaverino1019 said:

Second, the outrage against changing list building techniques to counter the Nantex is ridiculous.

Completely disagree. It's one thing to say that your list needs to have a plan to handle different, broad types (What do I do if I encounter an Ace? How do I deal with large turrets? etc.) It's quite another to say that your list needs to counter specific ships.

Additionally, if we do need to build our lists around counters, aren't we back to just comparing lists to see who wins (you counter my ships, so you win; you don't counter my ships, so I win)? I know there are plenty of people who preferred that approach, but if we're going back to that, then why did we even bother going to 2E in the first place?

10 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Cheap ships like TIEs and Vultures have a decent chance of getting 1-shot.

I question "decent chance" - one thing to bear in mind is that even with his ability enabled, unless Sun Fac can pull a bullseye shot you're using the mobile arc - which means a base 2 dice attack, with only a focus token to modify it.

Yes, range 1, yes, Sun Fac's pilot ability, yes, tractored target but even with all those things stacked together he still only has about one chance in four of "one-shotting" a basic TIE/ln fighter. I'm not going to question how annoyingly hard he is to get a shot off at in a knife fight, but I don't believe his firepower is as scary as people think.

Most ships in his price range can make a credible effort at dropping 4+ dice with focus/lock, force/lock, focus/fearless, or some similar combination. I would be surprised to see a TIE fighter survive two shots, but one-shotting it is not something I would call reliable.

(Yes, you have got more like a 50/50 chance of killing a tractored vulture at range 1. But Vultures present their own set of problems; most notably the risk of them spreading out and encircling you with energy shell fire)

12 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Additionally, if we do need to build our lists around counters, aren't we back to just comparing lists to see who wins (you counter my ships, so you win; you don't counter my ships, so I win)? I know there are plenty of people who preferred that approach, but if we're going back to that, then why did we even bother going to 2E in the first place?

☝️

29 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

But they are a bit too powerful for their cost, and they work a bit too reliably.

As a result, I expect we'll see a nerf-hammer next adjustment. I wouldn't be surprised, though, if the points changed a little more drastically than you predict. When enough people complain, which I think these forums tend to encourage, we usually see an overcorrection from FFG.

25 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

It's one thing to say that your list needs to have a plan to handle different, broad types (What do I do if I encounter an Ace? How do I deal with large turrets? etc.) It's quite another to say that your list needs to counter specific ships.

I would agree. But I would argue that the basic principle of bug-hunting are no different to engaging any single ace that's better than your ships individually; converge from multiple angles and seek range 2-3 shots where your arc is to 'big' to easily sideslip. Missiles and torpedoes - if you can carry them - make this plan better but it's far from unworkable with only primary weapons, especially since Sun Fac really isn't that tough.

He's so slippy as to be essentially unassailable in a 1v1 duel with a single ship, but "you probably lose if you end up in a small base endgame 1v1 with Sun Fac and are first player" (which is not an unreasonable assertion) is not the same as "you cannot fight a squad containing Sun Fac".

The Grand Bug simply becomes the one who absolutely positively has to die first , even at the cost of a bad initial engagement; the exchange for which is that he's expensive even by ace standards and whilst able to fling ship #1 somewhere that doesn't threaten him, is neither especially tough nor elusive against ship #2 (and potentially #3).

2 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

I question "decent chance" - one thing to bear in mind is that even with his ability enabled, unless Sun Fac can pull a bullseye shot you're using the mobile arc - which means a base 2 dice attack, with only a focus token to modify it.

Yes, range 1, yes, Sun Fac's pilot ability, yes, tractored target but even with all those things stacked together he still only has about one chance in four of "one-shotting" a basic TIE/ln fighter. I'm not going to question how annoyingly hard he is to get a shot off at in a knife fight, but I don't believe his firepower is as scary as people think.

Most ships in his price range can make a credible effort at dropping 4+ dice with focus/lock, force/lock, focus/fearless, or some similar combination. I would be surprised to see a TIE fighter survive two shots, but one-shotting it is not something I would call reliable.

(Yes, you have got more like a 50/50 chance of killing a tractored vulture at range 1. But Vultures present their own set of problems; most notably the risk of them spreading out and encircling you with energy shell fire)

Turret at range is a pea-shooter (but those pea-shots add up... I've flown enough TIE/sf to know that). Bullseye is potent, though. I guess it's possible to haggle over precise wording.

• Sun Fac:
  • Range 1 Bullseye Predator/Focus vs a Tractor/Focus target has a 73% chance to splash a TIE, 88% Calculating Vulture.
  • Range 1 Turret/Focus vs Tractor/Focus or Calc: 25% one-shot of a TIE, 47% Vulture.
• Non-Sun Fac:
  • Range 1 Bullseye Predator/Focus vs a Tractor/Focus target has a 42% chance to splash a TIE, 73% Calculating Vulture.
    • Chertek: 48% TIE, 83% Vulture
  • Range 1 Turret/Focus vs Tractor/Focus or Calc: 6% one-shot of a TIE, 16%Vulture.
    • Chertek: 11% TIE, 31% Vulture

Flying against four Ensnare Arena Aces the other day, it did not seem particularly hard for my opponent to be getting bullseyes against my N-1s or IG-88s, and these things can hit hard. Someone can run 4 Arena Aces with Predator, or 3 with a Crack Shot Chertek. Just feels a little excessive. I mean, Fangs can't run any talents at the 4-per-list level. Silencers E-Wings are 3-per-list (radically different ship styles, but still). I'd consider Chertek or an Arena Ace a good deal better than any of those.

11 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

He's so slippy as to be essentially unassailable in a 1v1 duel with a single ship, but "you probably lose if you end up in a small base endgame 1v1 with Sun Fac and are first player" (which is not an unreasonable assertion) is not the same as "you cannot fight a squad containing Sun Fac".

I think this probably true between most 1v1 ace battles. Whoever moves second will probably win. However, I think there's a pretty noticeable difference with Sun Fac. As could be expected, it comes down to blocking.

If it was something like Poe vs Vader, throwing a block lets you have a turn to breath. Grab a lock now, repair a crit, etc. Your opponent won't shoot you, and you'll be able to plan out a next turn and get position. Against Sun Fac, they've got the potential to roll off and have an unanswered range 1 shot (with bonus dice against reduced agility).

Flipside, Sun Fac moving first. They can throw a block, and if that block catches you in the turret arc, they can tractor you off and make progress. In a non-Nantex ace battle, getting blocked means you don't make progress this turn, but you're also safe. It's a time-honored tradition for someone like Guri, when she can't get to a good position, to just ram an enemy and stall things until next turn. Nantex can upend tactics that. It's fine for ships to have strengths and advantages, but I just don't think they're paying a fair price for them.

34 minutes ago, feltipern1 said:

As a result, I expect we'll see a nerf-hammer next adjustment. I wouldn't be surprised, though, if the points changed a little more drastically than you predict. When enough people complain, which I think these forums tend to encourage, we usually see an overcorrection from FFG.

They'll do what they do. What I think would be right as a first pass would be Phantom-level price adjustments, and Pinpoint Array changed, to make blocking into more effective counterplay.

I expect to see near-Scum-levels of nerf-nuke on both Ensnare and Sun Fac. I'm also expecting a re-un-nerfing of the components of the Sear swarm. Thus sending competitive CIS tumbling back down to the bottom of the heap, to compete with Scum once more for the title of "Why Bother?" So I'll start practicing my Grievous/TripPetranaki(Gravitic Deflection) list, and hope that the rest of the Nantex fleet doesn't get caught in the Ensnare/Sun Fac nuke-zone. And as long as I am dreaming, someday I'll learn how to counter Jedi regen. And Epic will be as good as I hope it will be. And Scum will get a corvette that isn't hot garbage.

29 minutes ago, Kleeg005 said:

And as long as I am dreaming, someday I'll learn how to counter Jedi regen.

I keep hearing people mention Jedi regen. What is it?

1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

No part of that is fine.

Why? Why is the Nantex breaking these rules so different from all the other ships that break game rules? And for the record there's actually quite a few ships that can shoot ones that they've bumped, so the idea that this is some traditional rule is rather bull. Any Rebel ship with a crew slot can do it for a single point. I used to have great fun with Norra and Intimidation/Zeb which is exactly what tractors do in most cases. Arvel and Oicuun even still deny the shot back. A lot of people get frustrated when they have to fight a new mechanic and this one is no different. People said similar things about the rear arc on RZ-2s when they dropped, but they adapted and overcame long before it got its points adjustment.

4 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

I keep hearing people mention Jedi regen. What is it?

Pretty much a Jedi Pilot of your choice (though Anakin and Obi are the preferred options, from what I’ve seen) with a R2 Astromech.

One of the Republic lists I’ve seen some success with has Obi-Wan and Mace Windu, both with the 7B config and R2 Astromech. I back it up with Wolfe carrying a R5 Astromech. Three regen droids means it can last a pretty long time, even reversing half points. I tend to be a bit reckless with it, but a better player can really make the Jedi dance.

What if Ensnare needed to spend a green token to proc ? It would be shut down by bumping (baring coordinate), leave PTA as is so Nantexes are not doomed after a succesfull block.

2 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Nantex will often be able to move off, avoid getting shot, and shoot the blocker with agility reduction. If they're Chertek or Sun Fac, they also get bonus dice or mods. No part of that is fine.

31 minutes ago, DarkArk said:

Why? Why is the Nantex breaking these rules so different from all the other ships that break game rules? And for the record there's actually quite a few ships that can shoot ones that they've bumped, so the idea that this is some traditional rule is rather bull. Any Rebel ship with a crew slot can do it for a single point.

@DarkArk Is your argument seriously, "Individual parts of the list can be performed by other ships, therefore having one ship capable of doing all of them at once with no significant drawback is also good!"?

we're still arguing about this? cmon get with the program baby its 2019

19 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

"Individual parts of the list can be performed by other ships, therefore having one ship capable of doing all of them at once with no significant drawback is also good!"?

Sure. That's the point. These are all mechanics we've seen on other ships with the exception of using a tractor as your own movement (and having to take the tractor to rotate your turret). The ship itself actually gets a bit predicable once you play against it a bunch because it has a certain set of things that it has to do to be effective. It's just very different from other ships.

Look no one is going to convince me that Sun Fac is an unbeatable ship. Twice I blew him up easily at my local hyperspace. Hilariously back in wave 1 with 9 point proton torpedoes I doubt he would have amounted to as much. People have simply gotten used to 3-4 small ship meta with low firepower and the Nantex does very well against that.

45 minutes ago, DarkArk said:

Why? Why is the Nantex breaking these rules so different from all the other ships that break game rules? And for the record there's actually quite a few ships that can shoot ones that they've bumped, so the idea that this is some traditional rule is rather bull. Any Rebel ship with a crew slot can do it for a single point. I used to have great fun with Norra and Intimidation/Zeb which is exactly what tractors do in most cases. Arvel and Oicuun even still deny the shot back. A lot of people get frustrated when they have to fight a new mechanic and this one is no different. People said similar things about the rear arc on RZ-2s when they dropped, but they adapted and overcame long before it got its points adjustment.

Arvel and Oicunn are two dudes. They're also limited by low initiative. Zeb lets you shoot back at his ship, he's crew-slot limited and thus is often stuck on ships which aren't super mobile. Ketsu Onyo can do some of this, too. She's also one ship, essentially front-arc locked, a large-base which can't fit through tight spaces, rather expensive, and can't reposition herself. All four also don't get actions when they bump.

Nantex is next level. Any Ensnare Nantex can, after getting blocked, still dodge arcs and shoot you, with better-than-naked-dice, and potentially denying the blocker shots on anyone else as well. This much control and ace-y-ness and time-on-target and resilience to blocks shouldn't be this cheap and this easy . There's far too many "ands" in there. At some price point, it can probably exist within the game, and ideally blocks would matter as much for Nantex as most other ships. But right now, counterplay to Nantex is a lot less effective than counterplay against other ships, and they've got really strong control tools, and non-Sun-Fac Nantex are *super cheap*.

You bring up the RZ-2. Most standard counterplay exists. Blocking and obstacles matter greatly. Generics are lower-initiative. Rear-arc and boost can be tricky to deal with, but it also never comes with a 3-4 dice Bullseye weapon, and frequently these A-Wings will have to give up dice mods.

Nantex don't need to be deleted from the game, but without a doubt they need a nudge.