3 minutes ago, wurms said:

Isn't it funny how a year ago we thought Han Gunner on Boba Fett was complete horse****

I mean, it was complete ****, but that doesn't stop other things from being complete ****.

i am silently waiting for Sun Fac to get the Dash Rendar/Anakin Skywalker treatment as he can be dealt with but problem is he wil at least chunk a list hard before he goes down

3 minutes ago, Neos472 said:

i am silently waiting for Sun Fac to get the Dash Rendar/ Anakin Skywalker treatment as he can be dealt with but problem is he wil at least chunk a list hard before he goes down

🤨 The "nerf" to Skywalker just made him a better point fortress, he's still competitive...

24 minutes ago, wurms said:

Isn't it funny how a year ago we thought Han Gunner on Boba Fett was complete horse****

-music snipped-

And that got fixed. Han Gunner became costed appropriately. The main reason for v2’s points not being printed on cards was to be able to quick-fix changes like Han Gunner. I still cite his case as one of the reasons v2 is great. Han is still an awesome gunner card, but no longer is he a no-brainer option.

I want to be clear about something though... The Nantex is not a bad design. It was built to be interesting, fun, and unique. It accomplishes all of that, and it’s clear that a lot of thought went into the ship. Ensnare is even priced accordingly, right out the gate! 74pts for a hyper-performance ace makes sense, and I don’t think it was designed maliciously to screw over any particular ship or ship type. Contrary to my position, I actually really love the ship and want to pick up several of them once a fix is implemented (and the hate blows over).

The negative issues with the Nantex likely spawned from (in my mind) cracks in play-testing or simple misjudgment on how it would get played. Did anyone really iron out just how hard it is to avoid Sum Faq’s tractor? Did it get thoroughly playtested against every ship? Did anyone think about whether it could/should be able to tractor itself off being successfully blocked? Only the play-testers and devs know, and they’re not perfect. And like Han Gunner on Boba, I’m sure this too will pass.

15 minutes ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

And that got fixed. Han Gunner became costed appropriately. The main reason for v2’s points not being printed on cards was to be able to quick-fix changes like Han Gunner. I still cite his case as one of the reasons v2 is great. Han is still an awesome gunner card, but no longer is he a no-brainer option.

At 12 points he's no longer an option at all...

2 hours ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

K. Let’s brainstorm. What is there to learn to fly against the Nantex with Dalan Oberos, Guri, or any other Starviper? I mean, sure we can just dedicate their system slot to Passive Sensors and give them a torp for a hopeful R 3 engagement. But then we’re once again specifically altering lists to combat a possible bugbear engagement.

True, but then there's a difference between equipping a starviper with 3 points of passive sensors and a 13 point proton torpedo, and packing a 6 point ion torpedo. The latter is not an insane investment and has value against opponents other than the bugs. Starvipers and TIE/v1 are superlative knife fighters who also have the potential to excel in an ordnance fight; accepting that there are opponents out there (including but not limited to nantex) you do not want to knife fight with and packing an alternative engagement plan is not unreasonable.

I think Guri is probably the worst example:

• her ability asks her to look for range 1, and against a higher initiative Nantex that's not going to end well.
• Her initiative of 5 is good but not enough to outfly Sun Fac.
• If she doesn't get range 1 she has a distinctly shoddy calculate instead of focus.

Oberos might well be able to pull moves where he can challenge even a Nantex's flying, but I'd need to try it to be sure. Certainly not in an extended fight - because you're then dealling with stress.

Vipers plus stuff, or Vipers with ordnace, or a heavy swarm of viper generics all have options - I think it's trying to fly a force of 2-3 pure knife fighting only vipers which will struggle...

42 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

At 12 points he's no longer an option at all...

100% false. I’d pay 12 points for an unblockable PTL every time. He’s still amazing on Fett, or R4 Kavil, or Nym, or Latts, or many, many other things.

Sure he’s not autoinclude, but he’s really good. Compare him to the Grand Inquisitor crew card.

44 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

At 12 points he's no longer an option at all...

*Competitively.

And despite what some competitive players like to think, tournament play is not the only way to play the game.

1 hour ago, Hiemfire said:

🤨 The "nerf" to Skywalker just made him a better point fortress, he's still competitive...

That doesn't actually make any sense. Making something more expensive doesn't make it a better points fortress, it makes it more expensive. To run the same ship, something else has to give in the list. Maybe that's bid, maybe that's other ships. But there's less to go around after Anakin got more expensive.

Meanwhile, he isn't actually a better points fortress. Bid is mathematically the best way to protect points (ethically best? I can't say). Old Price Anakin + Bid > New Price Anakin.

14 minutes ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

*Competitively.

And despite what some competitive players like to think, tournament play is not the only way to play the game.

Being as this thread is centered on competitive play you may want to walk that "just play casual games" attitude back a bit.

15 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Compare him to the Grand Inquisitor crew card.

Happily. Hmmm:

12 points 14 points

Let me see, one of these adds a passive mod and gives the option spend that passive mod to perform a red action (any it has access to) during an enemy activation (specifically the dial reveal step) quite likely before the ship it is equipped to has activated, the other gives the option to take a red Focus action before the ship it is on engages. Both work best on higher init platforms. Since you're soo happy with the "PTL" of Scum Han Gunner at 12 points, are you saying the Grand Inquisitor should be more expensive? That is a **** of allot more power in his crew card than a stressing "reactionary" Focus action during the Engagement phase...

19 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

...

Vipers plus stuff, or Vipers with ordnace, or a heavy swarm of viper generics all have options - I think it's trying to fly a force of 2-3 pure knife fighting only vipers which will struggle...

Ion torpedoes are the only torps I’d recommend taking, if you *think* you could possibly face a Nantex.

Super Dalan at best can play keep-away and hope for a Range 2 engagement. But he’ll be hard pressed to do that considering the Nantex is flat out faster and can jump the Range 3 bubble quite efficiently. Let alone how much possible range-1 coverage you can get from a turn followed by a tractor reposition.

But on the suggestion:

Vipers plus stuff: Why field the Viper(s), then? Especially competitively? Just field the other stuff.

Vipers plus ordnance : Also known as “make your first shot your best, because you could very well never get a second one.” And again, we get to the same as before... bother take a Viper, then? Kimo’s aren’t that impressive, but their fat butt can’t be tractored as easily. Y-Wings are (still) the better small base ordnance carrier. Indeed, Passive Sensors is about the only reason to consider a Starviper for a torp.

Viper Generic Swarm : $100 on Sum Faq, Chertek, and a 74pts bid. $500 if it’s just Arena Aces. Go ahead and take a torpedo or three instead of that 4th Viper.

18 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Being as this thread is centered on competitive play you may want to walk that "just play casual games" attitude back a bit.

How about no.

Competition or Casual, the Nantex is a problem in both fields. Gunner Han is not the center of this argument.

1 minute ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

How about no.

Competition or Casual, the Nantex is a problem in both fields. Gunner Han is not the center of this argument.

You're right he isn't, but you using him being removed as an option from competitive play in a thread about an issue in competitive as an example of a "good" thing since he can still be used in "casual" play is what opened that can of worms. He isn't an option at 12pts and Ensnare needs to be priced so it is a choice and not have done to it what was done to Scum Han. The "Whaaa!!! Nuke it out of the game!" sycophants be damned. 😠

10 minutes ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

is not the center of this argument.

Why do we even need to have an argument? How about we have a discussion on our difference of opinion? The amount of hatred that you have thrown out at our newest toy seems unhealthy. I get that you don't like it by the hundreds of posts you have in every thread even remotely discussing the Nantex. Yes this ship is irritating, how about we wait until after worlds to see how it dominates the meta before declaring it OP? In my local area everyone has deemed Sun Fac not worth the points and moved on.

16 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

I don't know how you got all R3 shots with locks for 2 consecutive rounds, but you should not do more than 1 damage per shot. More is an outlier and makes your anecdote irrelevant.

The maybe most relevant list is Sun + Chertek + Grievous, and that clocks in at 183pts.

In short: you should not be able to outbid them. Which again makes your anecdote not really relevant.

This is why initiative should be determined pre setup, not at list building. It would be so easy to add one step to the game to kill all arguments.

You also should not interpret games by what should be rolled. Averages aren’t, that’s why we have terms like hot or cold die. I have been on both ends of green die R3 through and obstacle blank out. It happens, even though averages say it shouldn’t.

You can only set up your play for what should happen and let the die kill your hopes and dreams.

10 minutes ago, dunhop said:

Why do we even need to have an argument?

"Argument" is not a dirty word. It is, in fact, a concept essential to logical reasoning.

It's counter-productive to read or use argument as "quarrel." It removes useful information from the language.

13 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

You're right he isn't, but you using him being removed as an option from competitive play in a thread about an issue in competitive as an example of a "good" thing since he can still be used in "casual" play is what opened that can of worms. He isn't an option at 12pts and Ensnare needs to be priced so it is a choice and not have done to it what was done to Scum Han. The "Whaaa!!! Nuke it out of the game!" sycophants be damned. 😠

I get that you’re mad about Han being priced out of competitive play, but you seem to be taking things way out of perspective. Han’s price being adjusted while he was a problem is a GOOD thing. Is he 12pts good (6pts in v1 thinking)? Probably not. But I never said that I felt he was priced right at 12.

As for the Nantex, contrary to your implication I don’t want it nuked out of the game. Again, I like the Nantex . But I do think it needs some tweaking, and point-cost isn’t the answer.

15 minutes ago, dunhop said:

Why do we even need to have an argument? How about we have a discussion on our difference of opinion? The amount of hatred that you have thrown out at our newest toy seems unhealthy. I get that you don't like it by the hundreds of posts you have in every thread even remotely discussing the Nantex. Yes this ship is irritating, how about we wait until after worlds to see how it dominates the meta before declaring it OP? In my local area everyone has deemed Sun Fac not worth the points and moved on.

It’s an argument, because whenever anyone says that playing against the Nantex isn’t fun to play against, blocking it should stop it’s tractor array, move it’s tractor array to the system phase, etc., someone responds with unhelpful suggestions like “fly moar betterer”, or “just use thuh ions at range 3!” Or they whine that the terribads are trying to nerf the **** out of their new $20 toy.

What if the Pinpoint Tractor Array triggered in the System Phase, instead of after a maneuver is executed? So it would be-

You cannot rotate your [Turret] to the [Rear Arc]. During the System Phase, you may gain a [Tractor token] to perform a [Rotate Arc] action.

That would give other aces a preview of where the turret/Nantex would be, without nerfing the chassis completely. Would that change up the Nantex enough to make people not view playing it as NPE? Or would Ensnare have to be toned down as well? Maybe having it trigger right after the Pinpoint Array triggered?

1 hour ago, Ikka said:

What if the Pinpoint Tractor Array triggered in the System Phase, instead of after a maneuver is executed? So it would be-

You cannot rotate your [Turret] to the [Rear Arc]. During the System Phase, you may gain a [Tractor token] to perform a [Rotate Arc] action.

That would give other aces a preview of where the turret/Nantex would be, without nerfing the chassis completely. Would that change up the Nantex enough to make people not view playing it as NPE? Or would Ensnare have to be toned down as well? Maybe having it trigger right after the Pinpoint Array triggered?

@RStan suggested that earlier up.

15 minutes ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

@RStan suggested that earlier up.

True, but after 7 pages of argument that seemed to focus mostly on why the Nantex/Ensnare was bad rather than ways to make it better without making the ship/certain pilots useless (like moving Ensnare to the End Phase which cancels out Sun/Chertek entirely), I thought it would be nice to bring back some more constructive criticism. Its an interesting ship that adds some much needed mobility to the Separatists (aside from the mobile but large base Infiltrator), and working on some useful ways to make it better seems like a better use of everyone's time than sitting in a negative/argumentative echo chamber.

I just finished a Sear Swarm vs Sun/Grievous/0-66. He half-pointed two Vultures. Sun Fac is only as good as his pilot. He's only as good as his wingmates. He can bully ONE ship per turn, if you let him. He gets no mods on his attacks. He's only as good as the human setting his dial. If he changes the meta, so be it; let's not get stale. Peace out; fly casual.

20 minutes ago, Kleeg005 said:

I just finished a Sear Swarm vs Sun/Grievous/0-66. He half-pointed two Vultures. Sun Fac is only as good as his pilot. He's only as good as his wingmates. He can bully ONE ship per turn, if you let him. He gets no mods on his attacks. He's only as good as the human setting his dial. If he changes the meta, so be it; let's not get stale. Peace out; fly casual.

I played Sun, Chertek, Kett against a sinker swarm. Sun Fac one shotted 2 V-19's and Sun/Chertek killed Sinker in a single round of shooting. *shrugs*

Also, my *** this pilot "gets no mods in his attacks". Reducing enemy agility and adding a die by itself IS MULTIPLE MODS (adding baseline .5 expected hits and removing .375-.625 expected evades depending on if they're focused), but he also has this thing called an action and possibly (or more accurately, "frequently") gets Predator as well. Just pilot ability + the -1 for tractor is better on average than a focus or target lock (4 dice v 1 with no additional mods is better than 3 dice vs 2 dice with a focus). Why do people think Sun Fac doesn't get actions, or that +1/-1 is not a modification or that you can't easily line up bullseyes (it turns out, when you get to tell people where their ships are, it isn't that hard)?

1 hour ago, Kleeg005 said:

Sun Fac is only as good as his pilot. He's only as good as the human setting his dial.

So he's fine because bad players can play him? Well, I guess that means Regen Jedi are fine, too, so I can tell everyone who complains about how frustrating they are to play against to shut up.*

Good Lord, this argument is as infuriating as it is meaningless.

* For the record, Regen Jedi are very much not fine and that is coming from one of their pilots.

8 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

True, but then there's a difference between equipping a starviper with 3 points of passive sensors and a 13 point proton torpedo, and packing a 6 point ion torpedo. The latter is not an insane investment and has value against opponents other than the bugs. Starvipers and TIE/v1 are superlative knife fighters who also have the potential to excel in an ordnance fight; accepting that there are opponents out there (including but not limited to nantex) you do not want to knife fight with and packing an alternative engagement plan is not unreasonable.

I think Guri is probably the worst example:

• her ability asks her to look for range 1, and against a higher initiative Nantex that's not going to end well.
• Her initiative of 5 is good but not enough to outfly Sun Fac.
• If she doesn't get range 1 she has a distinctly shoddy calculate instead of focus.

Oberos might well be able to pull moves where he can challenge even a Nantex's flying, but I'd need to try it to be sure. Certainly not in an extended fight - because you're then dealling with stress.

Vipers plus stuff, or Vipers with ordnace, or a heavy swarm of viper generics all have options - I think it's trying to fly a force of 2-3 pure knife fighting only vipers which will struggle...

My first attempt will be with my four I3s with Crack Shot flown a little better than I did last week.

I was facing Chertek, Sear and about five empty droids. I was ahead until the last turn, and ended up losing by three points.

I specifically targeted the droids first, with Sear and Chertek coming under fire last.

The next time I play a list similar to that and Nantex and/or Sear will be the first targets off the table.