Just now, feltipern1 said:

Possibly. I couldn't really tell what the actual issue was due to a lack of clarity in writing, so I was going on what I assumed to be the case.

What I got from it is that he doesn't like having his options limited so much. Whether or not the options he's limited to are good is beside the point.

46 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Nantex can't accomplish anything with Outmaneuver. It specifies a front-arc weapon, and Nantex don't have a front-arc weapon. They have a turret, and a bullseye. These things are different.

right, my bad

8 hours ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

Doubling or tripling the cost of Ensnare doesn’t change the fact that it’s caustic game design that will still piss people off who play against it. Version 2 was supposed to get away from that kind of nonsense.

I don't care to disagree with this assertion. I was merely trying to suggest an option for moving forward since the devs have been so dead-set against outright errata.

Honestly though, I now see not one but three cards that genuinely need hard errata:

• Punishing One (should add 3 front primary; accomplishes many many goals for the JM5K, effectively limiting the chassis and making it not-useless)

• Inertial Dampeners (should spend a charge, not a shield. Give it 1-2 charges and still cost it by initiative and it's totally fair)

• Ensnare (Should be at the start of the end phase, not the start of the engagement phase; still makes for awesome crazy shenanigans, but much MUCH less NPE)

I've seen other suggestions as well (Gunner Luke in end or systems phase, White rotate on JM5Ks, Fully Execute on Nantexes, SR to systems phase, Juke unique, etc.) but none of them really seem as badly needed as these three. These cards are just sad because they're either utterly useless or stupid powerful, and really not balanceable by points.

13 minutes ago, HamStarooh said:

right, my bad

Don’t fret about it. It’s a common mistake. I keep catching myself in the squad-builder thinking “Oh man, why haven’t I thoought of Outmaneuver on this thing before... Wait, I’ve had this line of thought already...”

1 hour ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I don't care to disagree with this assertion. I was merely trying to suggest an option for moving forward since the devs have been so dead-set against outright errata.

Honestly though, I now see not one but three cards that genuinely need hard errata:

• Punishing One (should add 3 front primary; accomplishes many many goals for the JM5K, effectively limiting the chassis and making it not-useless)

• Inertial Dampeners (should spend a charge, not a shield. Give it 1-2 charges and still cost it by initiative and it's totally fair)

• Ensnare (Should be at the start of the end phase, not the start of the engagement phase; still makes for awesome crazy shenanigans, but much MUCH less NPE)

I've seen other suggestions as well (Gunner Luke in end or systems phase, White rotate on JM5Ks, Fully Execute on Nantexes, SR to systems phase, Juke unique, etc.) but none of them really seem as badly needed as these three. These cards are just sad because they're either utterly useless or stupid powerful, and really not balanceable by points.

Ensnare at end phase doesnt work with Sun or Cherteks ability, and also makes the nantex too weak. Ensnare would have to be like 1 or 2pts at the nantex would have to drop by 6-ish pts, cause at that trigger as you are basically just taking a 3 agility ship to 2 agility for a barrel roll.

I think @RStan has a fantastic idea, and basically do what they did to the phantoms, and make the arc and tractor assign at the system phase just like decloak. So they have a pre-move roll, and turn the turret before anyone moves. This gives opposing players more information to dodge the tractor, its susceptible to blocking cause they cant just rotate the arc to the ship that blocked it, and if nantex is stressed, they wont be able to do the rotate action. It's a good idea, but makes them very similar to phantoms, but I think its probably the easy errata for FFG to implement as it keeps the actual usage exactly the same but just triggers in system instead of after a maneuver. FFG probably doesnt want to change the entire wording on the card, so this is a simple and effective middle ground.

The funny thing about the Nantex for me is that the base chasis is very well designed

It's flimsy and risky, but the combination of turret and bullseye forward let you really play cat and mouse with your opponent. Plus, even if your gimmick doesn't work on larger bases, your bullseye covers for you!

The ball was dropped with pinpoint triggering regardless of block and maybe Ensnare at range 0

1 hour ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I don't care to disagree with this assertion. I was merely trying to suggest an option for moving forward since the devs have been so dead-set against outright errata.

Honestly though, I now see not one but three cards that genuinely need hard errata:

• Punishing One (should add 3 front primary; accomplishes many many goals for the JM5K, effectively limiting the chassis and making it not-useless)

• Inertial Dampeners (should spend a charge, not a shield. Give it 1-2 charges and still cost it by initiative and it's totally fair)

• Ensnare (Should be at the start of the end phase, not the start of the engagement phase; still makes for awesome crazy shenanigans, but much MUCH less NPE)

The JM5K is indeed in need of something. And I will admit that Inertial Dampeners using shields instead of charges is one of the primary reasons I don’t take it.

The problem with Ensnare moving to the End phase, is then there needs to be a timing clarification so that the tractor remains for next turn. But it also means that Ensnare would need a hefty points reduction, and the ship overall would really just become a cheap interceptor with a gimmicky reposition. It also means Chertek and Sum Faq would probably need a points break, as their abilities would then require a turn to set up, or a different ship to tractor their target altogether.

Making the Pinpoint Tractor Array require a successful maneuver would do a lot to help the situation IMO, but I also have to chalk down support for @RStan idea of moving it to the System Phase. ****, Advanced Sensors, Supernat Reflexes, and Precog could all probably go there, as well.

for illicits

would've been super cool if jabba could spend a charge instead of having a friendly spend a shield/take a damage to use illicits

26 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

for illicits

(pic removed)

would've been super cool if jabba could spend a charge instead of having a friendly spend a shield/take a damage to use illicits

Well at least in his case, we all know he takes two crew slots! 😃

1 hour ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

Making the Pinpoint Tractor Array require a successful maneuver would do a lot to help the situation IMO, but I also have to chalk down support for @RStan idea of moving it to the System Phase. ****, Advanced Sensors, Supernat Reflexes, and Precog could all probably go there, as well.

Should all pre dial action/reposition/etc. (except from coordinate?) upgrades or abilities just always occur in the system phase? I'd at least be curious how that would all work out.

10 minutes ago, RStan said:

Should all pre dial action/reposition/etc. (except from coordinate?) upgrades or abilities just always occur in the system phase? I'd at least be curious how that would all work out.

Probably. Its not just a pre-movement issue either.
Kturns and their equivalents should end in stress.
Double Repositions should end in stress.
Single Repositions with mods should end in stress.
Turrets should require stress to boost or roll.

If we are going to play without 360 turrets we kinda need to take "movement" restrictions alot more seriously.

33 minutes ago, RStan said:

Should all pre dial action/reposition/etc. (except from coordinate?) upgrades or abilities just always occur in the system phase? I'd at least be curious how that would all work out.

That sounds the best to me.

Moving the TB token at the end of the round is pointless. Why bother have it do anything? I think that's a terrible idea

If it is nerfed, it would be that you have to complete a move (aka no bumping) to get to do the special ability.

I don't think it should be nerfed, though. I think people just need to learn to fly against it. It mostly hurts High Aces and I don't mind that.

11 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

I don't think it should be nerfed, though. I think people just need to learn to fly against it. It mostly hurts High Aces and I don't mind that.

Isn't it a High Ace itself?

1 minute ago, JJ48 said:

Isn't it a High Ace itself?

He is, but I prefer to have a bunch of droids in the list with him. That makes the list more of a mini swarm than a list of only High Aces. I also consider it more of an anti-ace.

Just now, heychadwick said:

He is, but I prefer to have a bunch of droids in the list with him. That makes the list more of a mini swarm than a list of only High Aces. I also consider it more of an anti-ace.

Maybe. I just keep seeing people gleefully pointing out that he wrecks aces, and all I can interpret it as is, "The Ace is dead! Long live the Ace!"

27 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

Moving the TB token at the end of the round is pointless. Why bother have it do anything? I think that's a terrible idea

If it is nerfed, it would be that you have to complete a move (aka no bumping) to get to do the special ability.

I don't think it should be nerfed, though. I think people just need to learn to fly against it. It mostly hurts High Aces and I don't mind that.

K. Let’s brainstorm. What is there to learn to fly against the Nantex with Dalan Oberos, Guri, or any other Starviper? I mean, sure we can just dedicate their system slot to Passive Sensors and give them a torp for a hopeful R 3 engagement. But then we’re once again specifically altering lists to combat a possible bugbear engagement. And once they close in, you might as well not even have a Starviper on the field. Because the only way you’ll get a shot off on the Nantex is if it’s a lower Initiative, or if he bungled moving your ship with his tractor.

But even in the most hopeful of engagements, I would bet money on Sum Faq over literally any Guri build, no matter how phat. And she can get pretty ******* phat.

17 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Maybe. I just keep seeing people gleefully pointing out that he wrecks aces, and all I can interpret it as is, "The Ace is dead! Long live the Ace!"

The lists that are seriously in danger are 2-3 Aces, but lists with more ships in it will have an easier time. I'm OK with that.

17 minutes ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

...But then we’re once again specifically altering lists to combat a possible bugbear engagement. ...

I don't think that the game should never change to where you need to change your list to face off against a new archetype. You should always be tweaking your list due to whatever is being flown out there recently. That's not a bad thing.

I also think it's OK if Sun Fac would own Guri on a 1-on-1 situation. Sun Fac would probably own almost any single, small based ship 1-on-1. That's why you take more ships.

5 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

The lists that are seriously in danger are 2-3 Aces, but lists with more ships in it will have an easier time. I'm OK with that.

Heh. Funnily enough, I see aces with regen and or pre movement sense will have an easier time dealing with Ensnare than any other small base. They will have the ability to run and reset the fight unlike the others.

Sun Fac is an Ace that can hunt just about anything as he stands with little consequence.

16 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

I don't think that the game should never change to where you need to change your list to face off against a new archetype. You should always be tweaking your list due to whatever is being flown out there recently. That's not a bad thing.

I also think it's OK if Sun Fac would own Guri on a 1-on-1 situation. Sun Fac would probably own almost any single, small based ship 1-on-1. That's why you take more ships.

Even if you filled your list with Starvipers in whichever ace/generic setup you think you could get away with, I would still bet money on Sum Faq and Chetek, both with Ensnares, and a 73 pt initiative bid. And it’s not like the Starviper is noteworthy as being a particularly attractive ordnance carrier...

Changing lists to what’s being flown is one thing. But when you are having to remove specific ships from your list(s) in order to not get face-rolled by the new thing, that’s 40k game design. And against the Ensnare Nantex, the Starviper currently has no place competitively or even on a casual table with a Nantex it doesn’t beat on initiative.

16 minutes ago, MegaSilver said:

Sun Fac is an Ace that can hunt just about anything as he stands with little consequence.

I'll disagree with that. Sun Fac can stand down anything in a 1-on-1 setup. Take a number of ships of the same points and I think it will get shot down. Don't fly in formation and make sure to cover your arcs. Look at which direction the turret is already facing to know where it is not going to turn it (and fly accordingly). If you can catch Sun Fac at beyond R1 than you have a good chance of hitting it. It's only 3 Green dice and 4 Hull. I am not saying it's easy, but learning to fly different is another thing. @Biophysical recently published a great article on flying in a type of convergence way.

2 minutes ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

Even if you filled your list with Starvipers in whichever ace/generic setup you think you could get away with, I would still bet money on Sum Faq and Chetek, both with Ensnares, and a 73 pt initiative bid. And it’s not like the Starviper is noteworthy as being a particularly attractive ordnance carrier...

Why are you hung up on Starvipers? I must have missed something in the previous posts. I think changing up your list to include things that are NOT Starvipers can be quite helpful. Four Generics might still have a hard time, but possibly a few other ships thrown in could do better.

Quote

Changing lists to what’s being flown is one thing. But when you are having to specifically remove specific ships from your list(s) in order to not get face-rolled by the new thing, that’s 40k game design. And against the Ensnare Nantex, the Starviper currently has no place competitively or even on a casual table with a Nantex it doesn’t beat on initiative.

Man, I have been in so many discussions back in 1st Ed of people just telling me that I need to play my list x way because it was the "right" way and that if I don't and lose, I only had myself to blame. If I purposely wanted to handicap myself, that I shouldn't bother playing tournament level, or at least not be surprised if I lost almost every match. Even if I didn't agree with them, I do now think you do need to adjust your lists if you want a better chance to do better depending on how the meta forms. Not that you HAVE to, though.

@MidWestScrub started a good thread that I'm posting in as well and we both agreed that while the Nantex is the natural predator to High Aces lists, you don't have to stop playing them completely as it's impossible to win. It's harder, but not impossible. Just learn some tricks and how to fly differently. It might have a learning curve, but I don't think it's impossible.

I don't think the Nantex is on the un-counterable level of the old, pre-nerf Tie Phantom.

14 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

Why are you hung up on Starvipers? I must have missed something in the previous posts. I think changing up your list to include things that are NOT Starvipers can be quite helpful. Four Generics might still have a hard time, but possibly a few other ships thrown in could do better.

I don't think the Nantex is on the un-counterable level of the old, pre-nerf Tie Phantom.

Because the Starviper is probably the ship that is most negatively impacted by the Nantex, due to the barrel-rolls. Tractor movement uses the barrel-rolls of the ship, and as it currently stands that means tractoring a Starviper forces you to move them with the 1-banks. Bluntly put, any Ensnare Nantex with a higher initiative that tractors itself into range 1 can then completely Fubar the placement and facing of the Starviper, however they want. And they’re already an expensive ship, that costs more than the Nantex.

But since the highest pilot for the Starviper is Initiative 5, and requires Range 1 to perform, there’s not a ******ed thing they can do to Sum Faq other than get ******.

$100 bucks on Sum Faq and Chertek, vs ALL THE STARVIPERS. Good luck playing against that! 👍🏻

25 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

I'll disagree with that. Sun Fac can stand down anything in a 1-on-1 setup. Take a number of ships of the same points and I think it will get shot down. Don't fly in formation and make sure to cover your arcs. Look at which direction the turret is already facing to know where it is not going to turn it (and fly accordingly). If you can catch Sun Fac at beyond R1 than you have a good chance of hitting it. It's only 3 Green dice and 4 Hull. I am not saying it's easy, but learning to fly different is another thing. @Biophysical recently published a great article on flying in a type of convergence way.

That article only loosely applies to the Nantex, because it can move your ships and has a turret and you can't stop its repositioning by blocking it. Basically, it does way more damage than traditional aces because it tractors stuff and has a much higher time on target.

Isn't it funny how a year ago we thought Han Gunner on Boba Fett was complete horse****