1 hour ago, Rangor said:

In my opinion, Sun Fac is healthy for the (tournament) game, as he forces players to adapt.

Since the rules update, which contained a nerf to tractor and ensnare, im also fine with four Nantex lists.

Ensnare is poison for new players to play against though. But so are Aces in generell, as well as alpha strike lists.

Stop complaining, start playing. If you dont like your matchup, change your list.

Or join the train and explore its weaknesses.

Balancing the game purely off of tournament play is caustic for the game in general. Something can be “balanced for tournament”, because it’s priced accordingly and shakes up the competitive meta. And yet be toxic for the game in general because it makes players despise it, isn’t fun to play against, and ends up as an excessively common sight on casual game tables. Case in point, 40k’s method of shaking up the meta for the past 5 editions.

Maybe I just need a demo on how to make the guy work. I've bought 2 Nantex, but haven't had the guts to put them on the table yet. I have tried them in Fly Casual, against all kinds of basic lists, and can't make them work. I either always have my turret pointed in the wrong direction because I HAVE to move it from where it WAS in the right direction, or I can only dodge one of the 3-4 arcs I'm dealing with and get obliterated, losing my 80point ship without doing much damage.

I don't consider myself a master player by any means, but I don't consider myself a total slouch either. Won a few local events, been playing for 5-sih years. It's not like I'm a noob.

Can somebody please tell me what I'm missing? To me it looks like one of those things that looks super nasty on paper, but then when you try to actually drop it on the mat and roll with it, the flaws become blatantly obvious.

Maybe I should look up some YouTube vids on it, to see what it's truly capable of. Anybody got a link to a good one?

2 hours ago, Asaverino1019 said:

Since the Nantex came out I have flown lists including at least one almost exclusively, and they are just as killable and counterable as any other ship in the game (1) . Even Sun Fac with all of his tricks can't stand up to tight formation swarms, multiple medium and/or large bases, ship with multiple arcs, bombing lists, foresight, Plo Koon, Luke gunner, Outrider, or ships that stay inside the mobile arc. (2)

Yes, against the current meta and list building mindset, the Nantex and Ensnare are game breaking menaces, but I say that's a good thing. Hopefully this will shake things up and we'll see things come out of the woodwork that were deemed "bad" or new approaches to list building that will make use of the full range of pilots and upgrades! ( "Like" for this! )

Hopefully this is the kick in pants the game needs to get out of its aces or swarms rut. So get those creative juices flowing and find something that irritates a Nantex as much as it irritates you.

1) I agree. Remember, the Nantex has no shields . Crits will sink right into it, and it's only got four hull to begin with - one more than a Vulture. They're squishy - especially if they don't have Ensnare or can't transfer the Tractor token because there's no enemy ship at Range 0 - `1.

2) Sun Fac, without dedicated support for tractoring shenanigans, will be almost useless against medium base or large base ships, and there are a lot. Who knows - maybe preparing for facing Sun Fac might bump Scum squadbuilding up a notch (looking at you @Da_Brown_Bomber ), since one of their strengths is medium and large-base ships. Currently, even in Hyperspace, Scum have the Customized YT-1300, Jumpmaster 5K, and Firespray. In addition, @Asaverino1019 , you've given a nice list of counters - even if they aren't hard counters. I'd add Informant to the list as well - if you know the move the ship's going to make, you can play a bit more with it - AND Informant's legal in Hyperspace.

2 minutes ago, direweasel said:

Maybe I just need a demo on how to make the guy work. I've bought 2 Nantex, but haven't had the guts to put them on the table yet. I have tried them in Fly Casual, against all kinds of basic lists, and can't make them work. I either always have my turret pointed in the wrong direction because I HAVE to move it from where it WAS in the right direction, or I can only dodge one of the 3-4 arcs I'm dealing with and get obliterated, losing my 80point ship without doing much damage.

You want your turret in the wrong position to start. So, for example, pointed left as you approach head-on or with the target on your right. That way you get the tractor and reposition into R 1. From there, your next maneuver should carry the target out of that arc so that the turret can then be repositioned again.

5 minutes ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

You want your turret in the wrong position to start. So, for example, pointed left as you approach head-on or with the target on your right. That way you get the tractor and reposition into R 1. From there, your next maneuver should carry the target out of that arc so that the turret can then be repositioned again.

Well, apparently that last part takes better predictive powers than I have. I always end up to where I can't maneuver to get anything but the current arc. And how am I ever supposed to get anybody in bullseye to use the more powerful weapon, if I'm also doing that, all the time still not exposing myself to enemy fire that I can't handle?

8 minutes ago, direweasel said:

Well, apparently that last part takes better predictive powers than I have. I always end up to where I can't maneuver to get anything but the current arc. And how am I ever supposed to get anybody in bullseye to use the more powerful weapon, if I'm also doing that, all the time still not exposing myself to enemy fire that I can't handle?

If you’re using Ensnare (e.g. Sum Duk), then you use your tractor reposition and the one you hit them with, to move them into arc. Or bullseye. With the higher initiatives, it’s not about better predictive power. But rather it’s about manipulating the final board-state between you and your target so that it favors you. And if you still can’t pull a shot, then you use your tractor against them to ruin their shot(s) and/or throw them onto an asteroid, and/or mess them up so their next turn will be a wasted maneuver.

31 minutes ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

If you’re using Ensnare (e.g. Sum Duk), then you use your tractor reposition and the one you hit them with, to move them into arc. Or bullseye. With the higher initiatives, it’s not about better predictive power. But rather it’s about manipulating the final board-state between you and your target so that it favors you. And if you still can’t pull a shot, then you use your tractor against them to ruin their shot(s) and/or throw them onto an asteroid, and/or mess them up so their next turn will be a wasted maneuver.

But don't you have to have the turret pointing in the right direction to tractor them at all?

I want to take a moment and talk about the Quadjumper that people keep bringing up...

The comparison is thus:

• 2 attack, 2 agility, 5 hull. The Nantex 4 hull, 3 agility, and has a 3 attack bullseye with a 2 attack turret locked to a 270-degree potential.

•Both ships have Focus and Evade. But the Quadjumper has a native Barrel-Roll, and its Evade is red.

•The Quadjumper’s aces are... at best mediocre. And they’re only worth considering if you have some shenanigan/combo you want to pull. The Nantex aces are pretty varied, with the top-end ace being a severe problem at Initiative 6.

•The Quadjumper’s dial is objectively worse than the Nantex’, barring the reverse maneuvers and 1-straight. The Nantex basically has that of an A-Wing + 1-banks, S-Loops at speed 3, and with IG’s spread of blue maneuvers.

•Quadjumper has a Crew, Illicit, Mod, Payload, and Tech slot, and standard talent upgrade spread (nothing on low generic, aces have talent). The Nantex has the A-Wing talent slot spread (double for everyone above the base generic, who gets 1 talent slot).

•The Quadjumper rings in at 32pts base for an initiative 1 Jakku Gunrunner. The Nantex rings in at 34pts base for an initiative 3 Hive Guard.

••So on to the Tractor ability— The Quadjumper requires the target to be in the front arc, at R 1, and uses an Action. Meaning it can be blocked, is limited to ships directly in front of it, and it gets no other action unless something coordinates it. If the target is in the bullseye, it gets two tractor tokens instead.

••The Nantex self-tractors to rotate it’s turret. This happens regardless of being blocked and does not take up the Nantex’ normal action. With the Ensnare talent the ship can offload it’s Tractor token onto another ship within it’s turret arc at range 0-1 (10pts for everyone not named Brewer Kett or Sum Fac; which are 16 and 24 respectively).

Here’s the blunt truth: the Nantex is a deadlier, super-efficient, lightning quick, unblockable Quadjumper with a potential 270-degree arc of effect that works at range 0... provided Ensnare is stapled to it (like it should be).

And people hated the **** out of Scum spamming Gunrunners when v2 first hit. So it should be no surprise that players are immediately hating on what ammounts to the trolliest Quadjumpers designed, but now with an Initiative 6 ace worth taking.

9 minutes ago, direweasel said:

But don't you have to have the turret pointing in the right direction to tractor them at all?

Yes, which is where the Nantex’s self-tractor reposition comes in to move itself and then reposition it’s arc to where the target is. The arc has a potential 270-degree field it can cover. It’s not that difficult to adjust a formerly head-on shot into a side arc, or vice-versa, at Range 1. Especially when you are moving yourself, adjusting your turret arc to accomodate, and then moving the target, all in a row because you’re Initiative 6 and have perfect board-state knowledge.

1 hour ago, direweasel said:

Maybe I just need a demo on how to make the guy work. I've bought 2 Nantex, but haven't had the guts to put them on the table yet. I have tried them in Fly Casual, against all kinds of basic lists, and can't make them work. I either always have my turret pointed in the wrong direction because I HAVE to move it from where it WAS in the right direction, or I can only dodge one of the 3-4 arcs I'm dealing with and get obliterated, losing my 80point ship without doing much damage.

I don't consider myself a master player by any means, but I don't consider myself a total slouch either. Won a few local events, been playing for 5-sih years. It's not like I'm a noob.

Can somebody please tell me what I'm missing? To me it looks like one of those things that looks super nasty on paper, but then when you try to actually drop it on the mat and roll with it, the flaws become blatantly obvious.

Maybe I should look up some YouTube vids on it, to see what it's truly capable of. Anybody got a link to a good one?

You just need to play them like any fragile ace. Best thing to think about is engage with it just like you would Fenn Rau. Dont commit to any engagement until you can get range 1 with your boost (or in Nantex case a tractor roll) and your enemies have committed elsewhere. You should not be jousting multiple ships with Nantex as you can only tractor one of them away. So bring some bid baddies with you that your enemy cant ignore, like 6 vultures, or Torpedo Maul, or outmaneuver grevious. Let those jousty high hull/count ships take the initial blunt. Sun Fac power goes up exponentially as ship count goes down. Dont engage him too early. For the arc, think of them as guns on the side arcs and you want shots on the side. With this mindset, you never have to slow roll to get shots on the opponent or dive right at them. Just like resistance A-wings with the rear arc, you can go either direction, pass the opponent, and tractor roll into arc. These are not conventional fighters. Also whats crucial, is your first engagement. Keep them just outside range 3, cause then you have them no matter what. At range 5, it will be hard for you to close range 1 unless they go fast. So dont turn on the speed trying to catch them that far out or you will find yourself in range 2.

I've been having a blast with Chertek. 50pts well spent, and not a total downer if he eats the dust.

3 hours ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

• How is “often tokenless”? His actions are Focus or Evade. The only time he is tokenless, is if he was blocked, or he pulled a red maneuver, or hit a space potatoe.

• Yes because people aren’t already fielding the crap out of gas clouds.

• Quadjumpers have a vastly inferior dial, require a front firing arc for their tractor ability, which requires an action to perform. The only advantage the Quadjumper has is a tech slot, and reverse maneuvers.

• Both Palpatine and Asajj happen after the tractor shenanigans. So, grats on giving a stress token to a ship where all of it’s speed 1 through 3 bank and straights are blue, after they’ve made their first pass and likely set you up where they need you.

• Because “spam the space cow” has always been the answer to every problem...

• But yes? He's quite often tokenless because he'll often be blocked (I6 after all, you beat them by blocking), sometimes he'll go through an obstacle, or sometimes he'll have to go red. If he grabs a focus there's a decent chance he's using it on offense, if he takes an evade he's more likely to miss, and in any case he's only got one.
• Quads don't have a great dial, but they do move first, and often there's just nothing you can do about them. There is a reason they got a massive price hike, after all. They went out of fashion partly because of that, and partly because massively expensive small base aces went out of fashion for a bit, but now that a threatening one is seeing play, maybe it's time to put them on the table again.
• I never said spam, I said they were decent. It's not like Sai or Jendon are useless against other ships, either. They're hard to kill, can reinforce against a droid swarm, and through coordinate they make your squad more flexible and less predictable.

Oddly passive-aggressive response, really. They're just a couple of ideas I threw out there, attempting to counter the idea that Sun Fac is overpowered and horrible for the meta. He's clearly good, but I'm nowhere near convinced he'll dominate.

24 minutes ago, Okapi said:

Oddly passive-aggressive response, really. They're just a couple of ideas I threw out there, attempting to counter the idea that Sun Fac is overpowered and horrible for the meta. He's clearly good, but I'm nowhere near convinced he'll dominate.

Possibly "oddly passive-aggressive" because you just threw these ideas out there.

1. Have you played with it and against a good player using it?

2. Do you agree that NPE and overpowered are not the same and, in fact, not even related? Something can be both, but it does not have to be overpowered to be an NPE.

11 minutes ago, Okapi said:

• But yes? He's quite often tokenless because he'll often be blocked (I6 after all, you beat them by blocking), sometimes he'll go through an obstacle, or sometimes he'll have to go red. If he grabs a focus there's a decent chance he's using it on offense, if he takes an evade he's more likely to miss, and in any case he's only got one.
• Quads don't have a great dial, but they do move first, and often there's just nothing you can do about them. There is a reason they got a massive price hike, after all. They went out of fashion partly because of that, and partly because massively expensive small base aces went out of fashion for a bit, but now that a threatening one is seeing play, maybe it's time to put them on the table again.
• I never said spam, I said they were decent. It's not like Sai or Jendon are useless against other ships, either. They're hard to kill, can reinforce against a droid swarm, and through coordinate they make your squad more flexible and less predictable.

Oddly passive-aggressive response, really. They're just a couple of ideas I threw out there, attempting to counter the idea that Sun Fac is overpowered and horrible for the meta. He's clearly good, but I'm nowhere near convinced he'll dominate.

• I have yet to see an Initiative 6 ace with an A-Wing like dial be “quite often tokenless because he’ll often be blocked”. Blocking isn’t something they can control, sure. But it’s far from being an easy thing to pull off against him unless you’re running 4 Lambdas.

• Quadjumpers don’t stand a chance. They may move first at Initiative 1, but they don’t move fast enough to tractor the Nantex first. The Nantex has no issue jumping into range and tractoring the Quad before it gets a chance to do anything except wish it wasn’t slow and had a front-arc locked tractor.

•The issue with the “but Lambda...” argument is the same basic fundamental issue with the Quadjumper argument... It is one ship, in a single faction. The problem people are having with the Nantex goes beyond single factions, and into every faction (including Seperatists not running them). So suggestions like “run a Lambda” are only of situational help to Empire players. And indeed, an arc-dodging ace generally doesn’t have much issue getting outside of the front and rear arcs of a space cow.

-I get your intention, but the reality is your suggestions are not all that helpful. And a cursory look at the complaints regarding the ship shows that.

By himself, Sum-6 can’t effectively make use of his abilities and tractor shenanigans against anything in a medium or large base. And yes we already know that his base cost is 78pts right now, which is not out of line for a hyper-performing initiative-6 ace. But he comes from a faction that out-swarms the tie-swarm, and has room to spare to field either more grief-tractors, or a sizable swarm, or an energy shell mini-swarm, or a mix of all of the above. **** we could even take him with Hate Maul on the Cloakmobile with Palpatine riding shotgun, and still have enough points for Haor Chall vulture with energy shells and grappling struts, and still have 1pts left for an initiative bid. I’m not saying that would be good, I’m saying a faction like the Separatists have plenty of room for a 78pt ace in a turbo-Quadjumper.

It’s not even about being “overpowered”... It’s about the fact that the last time a “meta shaking” ship like this was released, everyone just defaulted to running Initiative 7+ Aces with Veteran Instincts, because any maneuver made by a ship with a lower Initiative was the wrong maneuver against Whisper.

8 hours ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

Balancing the game purely off of tournament play is caustic for the game in general. Something can be “balanced for tournament”, because it’s priced accordingly and shakes up the competitive meta. And yet be toxic for the game in general because it makes players despise it, isn’t fun to play against, and ends up as an excessively common sight on casual game tables. Case in point, 40k’s method of shaking up the meta for the past 5 editions.

You deserve medal. Meanwhile, have a cookie.

Got in a few more games against these last night. Dang I hate them bugs. Let the nerfs roll down like Niagara.

I bought one a few days ago, and I'm going to give some Berwer Kret Belbullab Jank a shot, because I love me some Belbullabs, but **** are these things obnoxious.

This much control, with this much initiative, with this much mobility, with this much time-on-target, just shouldn't exist for this few points.

So my question for the sum *** supporters is this: on a turn where you are blocked, should you get:

A) 0 actions

B) 3 actions

And on turns you're not blocked should you get:

A) 1 action

B) 2 actions

C) 4 actions

Because being able to boost or roll, rotate your turret indicator, tractor your r1 opponent, and maybe get a focus token seems like a bit much.

Still not as frustrating to play against as Jedi regen.

Funny to see that when Nantex came out it got so much s**t being overpriced and all that and few weeks later it is NPE!

Well im still yet to try it out, so I cant say anything on that, but it is pretty funny how fast opinions change.

It’s very simple:

1) The Nantex is a beautifully unique, wholesome, well-costed piece of design (“fully execute” debates aside) that requires very clever play to use effectively and proves that there’s TONS of unused design space left in this game.

2) Ensnare is the stupidest idea FFG has had since 2.0 started, is an absolute disaster of an NPE, removes all positioning agency and shuts down 90% of counterplay (list building is NOT counterplay), and will kill the game through power creep if it isn’t intensely nerfed or if things of its ilk continue to be produced.

3) The initial reaction of the devs was way off base, because introducing complexity creep is the worst way to handle power creep.

Double the price of Ensnare.

Problem Solved.

2 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Double the price of Ensnare.

Points fortress Fac here we come...

5 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Points fortress Fac here we come...

I feel like you should be able to take him on with 102 points’ worth of your list. I could be wrong.

Yeah instead maybe just move Ensnare to the start of the end phase. Cool position-changing shenanigans, but not before shooting and getting shot at.

2 hours ago, Nyxen said:

So my question for the sum *** supporters is this:....

Cannot take anyone serious that starts like this.

You dont want to discuss.

2 hours ago, Kleeg005 said:

Still not as frustrating to play against as Jedi regen.

I haven’t seen anyone say that it explicitely is... Jedi are their own bag of worms right now. One can also say they’re not as frustrating to play against as I-9 Whisper was back during v1, or 4x Twin Laser Turret, or Harpoon Missile spam, or an oar ore hors d’oeurvre. But that’s irrelevant. Jedi Regen can be bitched about in separate thread (and I’ll join in on that one, too, because I’m in agreement that it’s frustrating).

4 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I feel like you should be able to take him on with 102 points’ worth of your list. I could be wrong.

Yeah instead maybe just move Ensnare to the start of the end phase. Cool position-changing shenanigans, but not before shooting and getting shot at.

Doubling or tripling the cost of Ensnare doesn’t change the fact that it’s caustic game design that will still piss people off who play against it. Version 2 was supposed to get away from that kind of nonsense.

not to dampen the rage party here, but i actually played three games as Jedi vs Nantex, and blew one up over round 1 and 2 while engaging them at extreme R3 with a Target Lock. Murdered Sun fac by engaging in a tight area oddly enough and outbidding them.

They're really squishy at R3 if they try and tractor into a better position. Might be worse if they try and engage me head on. You want to be having the first engagement at R3 me thinks. Then circle in/away from the nantex you're jousting, you might end up with some good R2 shots over the next time, that's usually enough oil to fry a bug.

Having a 15 point bid with Sun Fac makes him basically 78+15, whats that... 93?? Nothing else in the list will benefit from a big 15 point bid either. (Unlike other lists).

I have the funny feeling Maul+Sense Tractor + Chertek + 4 vultures is pretty decent. Using those vultures to jam things up more. It's definitely not I6 though and prone to some counterplay.