16 hours ago, wurms said:Lets assume you have Sense equipped on Luke and see Sun is doing a 1 hard left. You have read or been told that you need to get directly behind Sun Fac as he cannot turn his turret to the rear. That is the safety zone. So, you 4 straight and boost. Aha! Did it! Or did you?
What Luke should do here is a Barrel Roll left. It should get him behind the Nantex and out of any R1 arc.
I think it just takes a different mindset to fight it, but it is do-able.
My question is,
is gravitic deflection worth it?
Edited by HamStarooh12 hours ago, It’s One Of Ours said:If an ace is challenging the superiority of aces, then nothing is really changing. It’s not as if swarms or lower initiative not-so-ace ships magically have an easier time against the Nantex.
Well...not magical, but more shots firing at the Nantex is good. Don't fly in formation. Nantex can't arc dodge everyone. Only one Focus or Evade token and 3 green dice. I have flown Tie Fighters enough to know that isn't good. The more ships around makes it harder to do his crazy stuff.
The lists that are hit the hardest by the Nantex are the 2-3 ship lists.
19 minutes ago, heychadwick said:What Luke should do here is a Barrel Roll left. It should get him behind the Nantex and out of any R1 arc.
I think it just takes a different mindset to fight it, but it is do-able.
Because he has sense right?
32 minutes ago, heychadwick said:What Luke should do here is a Barrel Roll left. It should get him behind the Nantex and out of any R1 arc.
I think it just takes a different mindset to fight it, but it is do-able.
Bear in mind, if that works, it works because he had Sense to know Sun Fac's move, he had the exact correct combo of Nantex maneuver and Luke maneuver to allow it. It took his action, and all he gets out of it is not being shot. So the perfect scenario, when everything goes your way, is not getting shot and not shooting in return. Anything less than perfect is getting shot at R1 with -1 agi and still getting no shot. That's obviously a problem.
16 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:Because he has sense right?
As in the example.
1 minute ago, Biophysical said:Bear in mind, if that works, it works because he had Sense to know Sun Fac's move, he had the exact correct combo of Nantex maneuver and Luke maneuver to allow it. It took his action, and all he gets out of it is not being shot. So the perfect scenario, when everything goes your way, is not getting shot and not shooting in return. Anything less than perfect is getting shot at R1 with -1 agi and still getting no shot. That's obviously a problem.
True, but I was just working with the example given. It was said that even that build was defenseless against the Nantex. Even without it, people make mistakes and your list should work as a team. If you have 2 ships, one goes forward and the other hangs back. Or tries to block. Or....etc.
1 hour ago, heychadwick said:Well...not magical, but more shots firing at the Nantex is good. Don't fly in formation. Nantex can't arc dodge everyone. Only one Focus or Evade token and 3 green dice. I have flown Tie Fighters enough to know that isn't good. The more ships around makes it harder to do his crazy stuff.
The lists that are hit the hardest by the Nantex are the 2-3 ship lists.
K... The Nantex can either be flown in groups, or with 1 to 2 power aces backed by a butt-load of chaff vultures.
16 hours ago, ObiWonka said:If you cause your own ship to be tractored, you shouldn't be allowed to move it. Problem solved. You're welcome, FFG.
Seems a bit excessive.
8 hours ago, Archangelspiv said:In all the examples I have seen that the Nantek is breaking the game, it’s usually 1v1 situations. If you are left with Luke vs Sun, you are behind the 8 ball already. It’s like complaining that you block Jedi but they still get mods through force, force breaks the game! Sorry for the over exaggeration...
I am already tired of the Nantek NPE threads and it’s been less than a month. It has to have a few things happen to make it all work, it isn’t automatic. Sun is 78 with Ensnare, he should be a little bit decent.
Me, too. I think that it's just the target "ship I want to complain about in this wave release" for most of the people who are talking about it negatively. Every wave has at least one.
On a different note, I may be underestimating the power of the ship because I'm misunderstanding its use. As I play it, the following occur:
1) If I execute its S-loop, I can't use the Pinpoint Tractor Array because as part of the cost of executing the maneuver, I gain a stress token, and when I'm stressed, I can't perform actions (RR, p. 3). Does the ship ability ignore that restriction?
2) If I partially execute a maneuver, resulting in a bump, I can still gain a tractor token to perform my [Rotate] action, which allows me to swivel the turret anywhere within 270 degrees of arc, including the front arc and either side. This would allow Sun Fac to reposition, bring its turret to bear, and then at the end of the Activation phase use Ensnare to transfer the token to an enemy or friendly ship in the turret arc and reposition the second ship based on the tractoring rules (and whether the opposing ship is small base or not). Further, it would allow the additional die to be rolled during Engagement, because the condition of an enemy ship being tractored is now met.
Are these correct?
10 minutes ago, feltipern1 said:On a different note, I may be underestimating the power of the ship because I'm misunderstanding its use. As I play it, the following occur:
1) If I execute its S-loop, I can't use the Pinpoint Tractor Array because as part of the cost of executing the maneuver, I gain a stress token, and when I'm stressed, I can't perform actions (RR, p. 3). Does the ship ability ignore that restriction?
2) If I partially execute a maneuver, resulting in a bump, I can still gain a tractor token to perform my [Rotate] action, which allows me to swivel the turret anywhere within 270 degrees of arc, including the front arc and either side. This would allow Sun Fac to reposition, bring its turret to bear, and then at the end of the Activation phase use Ensnare to transfer the token to an enemy or friendly ship in the turret arc and reposition the second ship based on the tractoring rules (and whether the opposing ship is small base or not). Further, it would allow the additional die to be rolled during Engagement, because the condition of an enemy ship being tractored is now met.
Are these correct?
1. Is correct. Cannot perform the rotate when stressed. 2. is partially correct. You can do the rotate action, but cannot rotate to the arc it is currently in, so really you have 2 choices when rotating the arc.
10 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:MG-100 StarFortress - Cobalt Squadron Bomber - 94
Cobalt Squadron Bomber - (56)
Passive Sensors (3)
Perceptive Copilot (8)
Proton Bombs (5)
Seismic Charges (3)
Veteran Turret Gunner (8)
Hotshot Gunner (7)
Advanced Optics (4)RZ-2 A-wing - Green Squadron Expert - 41
Green Squadron Expert - (35)
Heroic (1)
Crack Shot (1)
Advanced Optics (4)Scavenged YT-1300 Light Freighter - Resistance Sympathizer - 83
Resistance Sympathizer - (67)
Perceptive Copilot (8)
Veteran Turret Gunner (8)Total: 218/200
View in the X-Wing Squad Builder
Some Resistance anti-Sun-Fac tools. Not as a single list, just viable tools on base ships. Use as you please.
That's really funny.
Because at first glance an I1 cow with a generic I3A and generic I2 hunk-o-veryold-junk sounds (even with all those upgrades) like it should be about 200 points.
...
218 makes me very sad.
#vtg overpriced
#hotshotoverpriced
#makesypathizersokayagain
3 hours ago, heychadwick said:What Luke should do here is a Barrel Roll left. It should get him behind the Nantex and out of any R1 arc.
I think it just takes a different mindset to fight it, but it is do-able.
Pretty sure a sun fac BR left rotate right nips Luke in that case. Might not be R1, but if you aren't getting shot, whatever? and if you are, you can focus the ship shooting you instead of the ship out of the fight?
In my opinion, Sun Fac is healthy for the (tournament) game, as he forces players to adapt.
Since the rules update, which contained a nerf to tractor and ensnare, im also fine with four Nantex lists.
Ensnare is poison for new players to play against though. But so are Aces in generell, as well as alpha strike lists.
Stop complaining, start playing. If you dont like your matchup, change your list.
Or join the train and explore its weaknesses.
There was some discussion of how this might be changed. What about inserting the phrase "...and if you are focused..." after "if you are tractored" on Ensnare? That would open the door to some more counterplay by way of bumps, jam, as well as taking away the option to evade if you want to use ensnare and stopping ensnare off bumps, while still letting the Nantex reposition off a bump if they want to, but now they have the consequence of a tractor token.
1 minute ago, Rangor said:Stop complaining, start playing. If you dont like your matchup, change your list.
Okay.
26 minutes ago, gennataos said:Okay
How would you feel about VTG going down to 7pts and Hotshot to 4/5 points.
What if all gunners scaled in price from small base turrets (cheapest) to Large base turrets (normal price).
Ywing paying 5points for VTG,
6 for medium base turrets
7 for large.
____
I don't know... I just feel like I'm already taxed for large bases, then for turrets, then for boost actions.
Compounding tax kills lists.
Poe gets I6 tax, then BB8+I6 tax, then Primed Thrusters +I6 tax.
Well, of course I'm gonna run static costed R4 and B1 title with heroic and nothing else in this meta.
Sure, the expensive stuff may have a higher ceiling of potential, but the tax on every trick in the game compared to the base Force Ace efficiency is just really palpable right now.
Since the Nantex came out I have flown lists including at least one almost exclusively, and they are just as killable and counterable as any other ship in the game. Even Sun Fac with all of his tricks can't stand up to tight formation swarms, multiple medium and/or large bases, ship with multiple arcs, bombing lists, foresight, Plo Koon, Luke gunner, Outrider, or ships that stay inside the mobile arc.
Yes, against the current meta and list building mindset, the Nantex and Ensnare are game breaking menaces, but I say that's a good thing. Hopefully this will shake things up and we'll see things come out of the woodwork that were deemed "bad" or new approaches to list building that will make use of the full range of pilots and upgrades!
Hopefully this is the kick in pants the game needs to get out of its aces or swarms rut. So get those creative juices flowing and find something that irritates a Nantex as much as it irritates you.
20 hours ago, Kleeg005 said:Heaven forbid that a single ship challenge the absolute superiority of Aces. Better give it the JM5k treatment(tm) ASAP!
Didn't people in general utterly hate the Jumpmaster's dominance? If this thing gets similarly out of hand, why shouldn't it be similarly nerfed?
18 hours ago, ObiWonka said:If you cause your own ship to be tractored, you shouldn't be allowed to move it. Problem solved. You're welcome, FFG.
Doesn't that remove the whole thematic reason that the ship has Tractor to begin with?
14 hours ago, MasterShake2 said:then I actually play just a normal player that walks in and it feels like they're playing Wheel of Fortune with their dial every turn.
O_o
...how would you suggest setting your dial, then? Make a conscious choice?
12 hours ago, It’s One Of Ours said:Guys! Guys! I got it! We can balance Sum Faq Ewe by just bringing back 360-degree no-scope turrets!
Not actually serious...
Only if they also get multiple stressless repositions and at least two free, green tokens!
10 hours ago, Archangelspiv said:In all the examples I have seen that the Nantek is breaking the game, it’s usually 1v1 situations. If you are left with Luke vs Sun, you are behind the 8 ball already. It’s like complaining that you block Jedi but they still get mods through force, force breaks the game! Sorry for the over exaggeration...
I am already tired of the Nantek NPE threads and it’s been less than a month. It has to have a few things happen to make it all work, it isn’t automatic. Sun is 78 with Ensnare, he should be a little bit decent.
It bears repeating: NPE != OP
7 hours ago, Okapi said:
- Pretty sure he hates Lambdas. Big lump of cheap, tough, double-gunned immovable rock. Cover the flanks with some cheap TIEs or something.
Lambda s are fun to fly, but just resisting the thing isn't going to help you take it out.
4 hours ago, heychadwick said:What Luke should do here is a Barrel Roll left. It should get him behind the Nantex and out of any R1 arc.
I think it just takes a different mindset to fight it, but it is do-able.
👍
45 minutes ago, Smikies02 said:Pretty sure a sun fac BR left rotate right nips Luke in that case. Might not be R1, but if you aren't getting shot, whatever? and if you are, you can focus the ship shooting you instead of the ship out of the fight?
IN THIS EXAMPLE: A barrel roll left as forward as possible by Luke, still gets Luke shot at (because Luke was not perfectly even head-on), but at least he isnt tractored. So best case is you get no shot, but only get shot by 2 die in return...until next round
The big thing that could check aces/swarms are "payloads"
Problem is that the unique bombers (such as Sol, Edon, Emon, even the bombard drone; etc) are STUPID expensive and slow.
Now, slow is good (first Ed eu nym? No ****** thanks) but the point costs are some nonsense considering you have the pay atop them to even use their abilities!
At least the recent errata gave debris dumps a buff
Edited by ficklegreendice
7 hours ago, Okapi said:Sun Fac is not a problem. He's a a 4 HP, often tokenless ship at 78 point. Sure, he's great against trip aces, but frankly that sort of list deserves a little setback for once. There's plenty of tools you could use against him, not just swarms or I6s with a bid.
- Bring gas clouds, grab Sun's biggest rock at deployment and Seismic it away at first opportunity, dealing with the rest as you move. Bonus! Sun has to scramble to get away from exploding rocks (again, 4 HP), and any Proton Bombs you might have are potentially awful for him.
- Bring back Quadjumpers! Have him taste his own tractor medicine. Maybe Unkar Plutt, seeing as he becomes a tiny little aces against I1 drones?
- Republic Palpatine, Asajj Ventress, anything that can give him stress is decent.
- Pretty sure he hates Lambdas. Big lump of cheap, tough, double-gunned immovable rock. Cover the flanks with some cheap TIEs or something.
• How is “often tokenless”? His actions are Focus or Evade. The only time he is tokenless, is if he was blocked, or he pulled a red maneuver, or hit a space potatoe.
• Yes because people aren’t already fielding the crap out of gas clouds.
• Quadjumpers have a vastly inferior dial, require a front firing arc for their tractor ability, which requires an action to perform. The only advantage the Quadjumper has is a tech slot, and reverse maneuvers.
• Both Palpatine and Asajj happen after the tractor shenanigans. So, grats on giving a stress token to a ship where all of it’s speed 1 through 3 bank and straights are blue, after they’ve made their first pass and likely set you up where they need you.
• Because “spam the space cow” has always been the answer to every problem...
4 hours ago, HamStarooh said:My question is,
is gravitic deflection worth it?
Instead of Ensnare? No. In addition to, yeah I’d take it on Chertek or Sum Fwak.
Edited by It’s One Of OursReminder, escalation for the sake of "shaking up the meta" or "forcing players to change how they play" or "kill the thing at the top of the last meta" ...etc.
IS NOT WORTH IT IF IT ALSO KILLS EVERYTHING ELSE ALONG WITH IT IN A MASSIVE NPE POWER CREEP.
If you recall this occurred in 1st edition and we know what happened there...just because Autothrusters helped against 360 Turrets and TLT doesn't mean it was good for the game since it killed a large percentage of the playable ships. If we continue on this trajectory, it can only go up from here or the Nantex (Ensnare) get's priced out of existence.
Edited by RStan6 minutes ago, Asaverino1019 said:Since the Nantex came out I have flown lists including at least one almost exclusively, and they are just as killable and counterable as any other ship in the game. Even Sun Fac with all of his tricks can't stand up to tight formation swarms, multiple medium and/or large bases, ship with multiple arcs, bombing lists, foresight, Plo Koon, Luke gunner, Outrider, or ships that stay inside the mobile arc.
Yes, against the current meta and list building mindset, the Nantex and Ensnare are game breaking menaces, but I say that's a good thing. Hopefully this will shake things up and we'll see things come out of the woodwork that were deemed "bad" or new approaches to list building that will make use of the full range of pilots and upgrades!
Hopefully this is the kick in pants the game needs to get out of its aces or swarms rut. So get those creative juices flowing and find something that irritates a Nantex as much as it irritates you.
If it gets regen jedi off the tables, Im all for it. Nothing I hate more in this game than running away and regening to win on points. I do not want aces to be extinct though. But running against Sun Fac is just hard countered. It's like bringing a jouster against 1stEd. Dengaroo.