Don't worry. When the Nu-class attack shuttle comes out, the Delta Squad crew card will put an end to this bug!

How much would a Separatist player be willing to pay for Sun?

85?

100?

Would a Maul+Sun squad even be good?

41 minutes ago, Bucknife said:

How much would a Separatist player be willing to pay for Sun?

85?

100?

Would a Maul+Sun squad even be good?

It's the old game design thought experiment, isn't it: How many points would you pay for a unit/ship/card that just reads "win target game"? Up to maxiumum, because when you pay it, you just win. Some things are just intrinsically hard to balance via cost.

I have a suspicion that Pinpoint Tractor Array actually has a justification for being "execute" instead of "fully execute". Nothing to back it up, but a Nantex that bumps with "fully execute" language is just dead, however, if that same Nantex is flown well enough to either not bump, or bump when it doesn't matter, the value is exactly as high as it is right now. This actually creates almost a bigger problem in that the Nantex will either be massivley undercosted or massively overcosted purely based on execution skill simply because the delta of value from turn to turn varies so wildly between the peak and valley. It would actually be easier to cost correctly (and put higher cost without it feeling useless to weaker players) by having a consistent value on most turns especially because the Nantex is just weird enough to not quite be intuitive to begin with.

Going back to the original quandary: If 1% of your players can execute with a game element to auto-win every game, but the other 99% find it unplayable, what should you cost it at? This is harder to solve, as the value is either everything or nothing and the top 1%'s ability to get the most out of the element will ruin competitive play entirely, so costing for them makes it virtually nonexistent for everyone else, but they'll still dominate with it.

Whether or not you agree with that justification is another issue, but there is merit to being able to apply to one cost that will be more generally applicable even with execution differences vs. having something with a high skill floor that's costed with the top percent of players in mind (especially if you have to stay in business).

19 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

high skill floor

Even with fully execute i would absolutely not describe the nantex as having a high skill floor. Its a turret with white repositions. Compare it to basically any ship in the game, those two tools make it significantly easier.

edit i dont know what floors are

2 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Even with fully execute i would absolutely not describe the nantex as having a high skill floor. Its a turret with white repositions. Compare it to basically any ship in the game, those two tools raise its skill floor significantly.

but it is a nightmare.

10 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Even with fully execute i would absolutely not describe the nantex as having a high skill floor. Its a turret with white repositions. Compare it to basically any ship in the game, those two tools make it significantly easier.

edit i dont know what floors are

I think you're overestimating how weak the average player is mechanically. I fall into the trap a lot of thinking some of the weaker tier tournament players are representative of the player base, then I actually play just a normal player that walks in and it feels like they're playing Wheel of Fortune with their dial every turn.

57 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

I think you're overestimating how weak the average player is mechanically. I fall into the trap a lot of thinking some of the weaker tier tournament players are representative of the player base, then I actually play just a normal player that walks in and it feels like they're playing Wheel of Fortune with their dial every turn.

One thing i will say is without ensnare and with fully execute words it could have been a genuinely interesting CIS striker with a turret and a bullseye.

Just now, Boom Owl said:

One thing i will say is without ensnare and with fully execute words it could have been a genuinely interesting CIS striker with a turret and a bullseye type ship.

If your argument is "Ensnare was a mistake", I'm with you. I just feel that, as long as it exists, it would be hard to cost properly in conjunction with the platform (you already can't use Ensnare if you're too far away, so also having to be close, but not too close would make it a weird upgrade to put at an appropriate cost)

Even not having played against fun faq, it's pretty easy to declare being able to pinpoint off a block as bull

You run in at an angle and a block turns into an easy range 1 Arc dodge

26 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Even not having played against fun faq, it's pretty easy to declare being able to pinpoint off a block as bull

You run in at an angle and a block turns into an easy range 1 Arc dodge

Thanks for this.

I'm bringing 5A to our local hyperspace in a couple weeks, and two I1 blockers trying to do their thing just got their lives saved.

Maybe they'll live to get promoted to Greens by Ep9.

Guys! Guys! I got it! We can balance Sum Faq Ewe by just bringing back 360-degree no-scope turrets!

Not actually serious...

19 minutes ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

Guys! Guys! I got it! We can balance Sum Faq Ewe by just bringing back 360-degree no-scope turrets!

Not actually serious...

Honestly, he makes Agile Gunner and Luke valid.

19 minutes ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

Guys! Guys! I got it! We can balance Sum Faq Ewe by just bringing back 360-degree no-scope turrets!

Oh, you mean just run Han with Luke Gunner?

5 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:

Honestly, he makes Agile Gunner and Luke valid.

Well... provided the Y-Wing (or whatever) doesn’t get tossed onto a rock.

MG-100 StarFortress - Cobalt Squadron Bomber - 94
Cobalt Squadron Bomber - (56)
Passive Sensors (3)
Perceptive Copilot (8)
Proton Bombs (5)
Seismic Charges (3)
Veteran Turret Gunner (8)
Hotshot Gunner (7)
Advanced Optics (4)

RZ-2 A-wing - Green Squadron Expert - 41
Green Squadron Expert - (35)
Heroic (1)
Crack Shot (1)
Advanced Optics (4)

Scavenged YT-1300 Light Freighter - Resistance Sympathizer - 83
Resistance Sympathizer - (67)
Perceptive Copilot (8)
Veteran Turret Gunner (8)

Total: 218/200

View in the X-Wing Squad Builder

Some Resistance anti-Sun-Fac tools. Not as a single list, just viable tools on base ships. Use as you please.

I wouldn’t count the RZ-2 as a solid option to use against Sum Faq (or any Nantex of higher Initiative). They may be able to move their arc forwar or back, but that’s still only 1 arc.

I refuse to use Resistance Bombers on the principle of there were no B-Wings in Force Awakens or Last Jedi. And because I can be a petty ***** at times.

6 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Only one Talent Slot

No talent slot. Make those cards quick build only. Then you could give it all the mod slots you want. Or cost Ensnare so that you could only take it in Epic. IDK. HTD wasn't the NPE of UUU but was nuked to double kill the NPE of Dormitz. Dewitt to the Nantex. There are solutions.

In all the examples I have seen that the Nantek is breaking the game, it’s usually 1v1 situations. If you are left with Luke vs Sun, you are behind the 8 ball already. It’s like complaining that you block Jedi but they still get mods through force, force breaks the game! Sorry for the over exaggeration...

I am already tired of the Nantek NPE threads and it’s been less than a month. It has to have a few things happen to make it all work, it isn’t automatic. Sun is 78 with Ensnare, he should be a little bit decent.

15 minutes ago, Archangelspiv said:

In all the examples I have seen that the Nantek is breaking the game, it’s usually 1v1 situations. If you are left with Luke vs Sun, you are behind the 7 ball already. It’s like complaining that you block Jedi but they still get mods through force, force breaks the game! Sorry for the over exaggeration...

I am already tired of the Nantek NPE threads and it’s been less than a month. It has to have a few things to happen to make it all work, it isn’t automatic. Sun is 78 with Ensnare, he should be a little bit decent.

It’s not as if the Seperatist faction is noted for being full of high-cost ships that limit the squadron’s size. You could easily run 6 Vultures with Sum Fakk, and still have enough points left over to take Gravitic Deflection and give yourself a 3pt bid.

5 minutes ago, Archangelspiv said:

In all the examples I have seen that the Nantek is breaking the game, it’s usually 1v1 situations.

Because they're the easiest to gif, but I've seen Nantexes YOLO into entire formations, bump the leader, and still get a modified shot while only taking a perfunctory range 2 and/or obstructed shot in return.

8 minutes ago, Archangelspiv said:

It’s like complaining that you block Jedi but they still get mods through force, force breaks the game! Sorry for the over exaggeration...

I know you're purposefully exaggerating here, but I've seen this comment made in all seriousness and it annoys me to no end, so I'm going to pick on it here, anyway. Apologies.

Jedi are far from the only ship that can bump and still get mods. Soontir does it, anyone carrying Lone Wolf can do it, heck, Vultures can do it. Getting mods after a bump isn't a problem in and of itself. The problem with the Nantex and Ensnare is the reposition after the bump.

Every other ship in the game that bumps has to sit there and pray to the dice gods, mods or no mods. A Nantex repositions itself, repositions an enemy, and between the two often dodges most everything and still shoots because it's frighteningly close to having a First Edition turret. That is the broken bit.

15 minutes ago, Archangelspiv said:

I am already tired of the Nantek NPE threads and it’s been less than a month. It has to have a few things to happen to make it all work, it isn’t automatic. Sun is 78 with Ensnare, he should be a little bit decent.

Actually, it is all rather automatic. Move, activate all your abilities without regard for having hit anything except exactly a gas cloud, then tell your opponent he's on a rock or has no shot. That people can be bad and pick the wrong option doesn't make it balanced.

And there's a big difference between "a bit decent" and "invalidates every small base ship that isn't another i6 with a deeper bid." Sun is the latter.

2 hours ago, Archangelspiv said:

In all the examples I have seen that the Nantek is breaking the game, it’s usually 1v1 situations. If you are left with Luke vs Sun, you are behind the 7 ball already. It’s like complaining that you block Jedi but they still get mods through force, force breaks the game! Sorry for the over exaggeration...

I am already tired of the Nantek NPE threads and it’s been less than a month. It has to have a few things to happen to make it all work, it isn’t automatic. Sun is 78 with Ensnare, he should be a little bit decent.

I encountered a Sun Fac list at a HST on the weekend. The list was Sun (ensnare&Grav Deflection), Chertak (Ensare) & Grievous (Soulless One).

The player had a significant bid to ensure that Sun Fac had perfect information, which he used to great effect. My four ship list was quite literally torn apart, only managing to half point Chertak due to some incredibly hot R3 shots. It was an incredibly frustrating game, because the Nantex seemingly get to do everything they want to do with no cost and seemingly little preparation needed (the only real 'thought' required was ensuring you could rotate the turret to be facing someone who'll end at R1), while simultaneously punishing me for doing anything (no move would get me clear of the 'threat bubble'). I'd imagine that a 'pure' swarm list would hard counter them, but I wouldn't want to bet on that.

My squadmate flies them at the moment, that exact list. He lost hard to aces with a bid. Without that perfect information he got shredded. Anything that’s good against aces will be fine against Fac. I don’t think he’ll be a defining thing. I don’t expect to see him on the top table at worlds.

Sun Fac is not a problem. He's a a 4 HP, often tokenless ship at 78 point. Sure, he's great against trip aces, but frankly that sort of list deserves a little setback for once. There's plenty of tools you could use against him, not just swarms or I6s with a bid.

• Bring gas clouds, grab Sun's biggest rock at deployment and Seismic it away at first opportunity, dealing with the rest as you move. Bonus! Sun has to scramble to get away from exploding rocks (again, 4 HP), and any Proton Bombs you might have are potentially awful for him.
• Bring back Quadjumpers! Have him taste his own tractor medicine. Maybe Unkar Plutt, seeing as he becomes a tiny little aces against I1 drones?
• Republic Palpatine, Asajj Ventress, anything that can give him stress is decent.
• Pretty sure he hates Lambdas. Big lump of cheap, tough, double-gunned immovable rock. Cover the flanks with some cheap TIEs or something.

1 hour ago, Okapi said:

Sun Fac is not a problem. He's a a 4 HP, often tokenless ship at 78 point. Sure, he's great against trip aces, but frankly that sort of list deserves a little setback for once. There's plenty of tools you could use against him, not just swarms or I6s with a bid.

• Bring gas clouds, grab Sun's biggest rock at deployment and Seismic it away at first opportunity, dealing with the rest as you move. Bonus! Sun has to scramble to get away from exploding rocks (again, 4 HP), and any Proton Bombs you might have are potentially awful for him.
• Bring back Quadjumpers! Have him taste his own tractor medicine. Maybe Unkar Plutt, seeing as he becomes a tiny little aces against I1 drones?
• Republic Palpatine, Asajj Ventress, anything that can give him stress is decent.
• Pretty sure he hates Lambdas. Big lump of cheap, tough, double-gunned immovable rock. Cover the flanks with some cheap TIEs or something.

I like your ideas, I have been playing against Gunrunners for a while, which maybe why I don’t think Nanteks are crazy. You just have to fly a little different than normal.

I wanted to try this list out against Nanteks, no idea how it would go. The idea is to try and abuse the tractor rules so that they can’t boost/BR if you don’t want them too.

New Squadron

(85) Boba Fett [Firespray-class Patrol Craft]
(5) 0-0-0
(5) Proton Bombs
(2) BT-1
(3) Contraband Cybernetics
(5) Cluster Missiles
(3) Fearless
(6) Marauder
Points: 114

(70) Ketsu Onyo [Lancer-class Pursuit Craft]
(2) Qi'ra
(9) Snap Shot
(3) Shadow Caster
Points: 84

Total points: 198

not finished yet, still tweaking away.

I wouldn't bring gas clouds against nantex, it lets them just pinpoint through them and hide with no negative effect except making them harder to hit. If anything, bring debris, unlike gas clouds and asteroids, they cannot pinpoint off of them, and unlike either they don't give extra defensive bonuses to the nantex (as in the gas cloud auto thruster, or inability to shoot of the asteroids) and while the stress is negative to you as well, you can still shoot off of it. The nantex play is probably going to bring gas clouds so that they can dance around and through them without consequence, so debris is the better obstacle against them.