As an Arc lover, I'm less affected

All the resistance I got sitting around, though, is gonna need some coaxing before they come out of storage to face the Fac

The problen isnt that they are OP. You can catch them. The problem is they are not fun to play against in the same manner kylo in 1st ed. was not fun to fly against, because of the auto blinded pilot. Sun Fac basically puts a blinded pilot on one ship per round by tractoring it out of arc, or onto rocks, no matter how well you out fly him.

Is sun fac going to win worlds? I doubt it. There should be enough nantex that they have a good showing in top 16, but its not going to obliterate everything.

I just faced sun,chertek,grevious with my maul, chertek, 4 vultures, and killed both sun and chertek in the match. But sun was eating vultures. I block him with one vulture, have two others in arc, then he tractors himself out of the two arcs, and tractors the blocker into his bullseye and one shots it. Without Maul+sense, i woulda got wrecked in this match. Its ridiculous what these things can do, even when blocked.

No other trip aces list could beat this cis aces. Nantex just killed that archetype. You need a swarm, or medium/large ships in your list now. If not, you are just rolling the dice with matchups. Im sure Duncan Howard will prove me wrong with Vader, Soontir, Dutchess and a 25pt bid at Worlds or something, lol.

Just change the timing of pinpoint tractor to system phase, and then the ship will be a cool fun ship without the NPE element since you can outfly it and its your own fault if you get caught in its turret arc.

4 hours ago, wurms said:

The problen isnt that they are OP. You can catch them. The problem is they are not fun to play against in the same manner kylo in 1st ed. was not fun to fly against, because of the auto blinded pilot. Sun Fac basically puts a blinded pilot on one ship per round by tractoring it out of arc, or onto rocks, no matter how well you out fly him.

Is sun fac going to win worlds? I doubt it. There should be enough nantex that they have a good showing in top 16, but its not going to obliterate everything.

I just faced sun,chertek,grevious with my maul, chertek, 4 vultures, and killed both sun and chertek in the match. But sun was eating vultures. I block him with one vulture, have two others in arc, then he tractors himself out of the two arcs, and tractors the blocker into his bullseye and one shots it. Without Maul+sense, i woulda got wrecked in this match. Its ridiculous what these things can do, even when blocked.

No other trip aces list could beat this cis aces. Nantex just killed that archetype. You need a swarm, or medium/large ships in your list now. If not, you are just rolling the dice with matchups. Im sure Duncan Howard will prove me wrong with Vader, Soontir, Dutchess and a 25pt bid at Worlds or something, lol.

Just change the timing of pinpoint tractor to system phase, and then the ship will be a cool fun ship without the NPE element since you can outfly it and its your own fault if you get caught in its turret arc.

do you really find sun chertek previous that good??? ... I'm not so impressed yet

Back in my day, we called this a TIE Phantom, and we used large base turrets to kill them.

Get to it. Adapt. Stop trying to use the same tactics to win. You're not GOING to win that way. LEARN.

6 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:

Back in my day, we called this a TIE Phantom, and we used large base turrets to kill them.

Get to it. Adapt. Stop trying to use the same tactics to win. You're not GOING to win that way. LEARN.

back in ma day, we didn't even do that. We just joined them and collected the juicy tears and lamentations of our opponent.

1 hour ago, Captain Lackwit said:

Back in my day, we called this a TIE Phantom, and we used large base turrets to kill them.

Get to it. Adapt. Stop trying to use the same tactics to win. You're not GOING to win that way. LEARN.

That's funny, I could have sworn that a year back we restarted the whole bloody game to get away from that "play X or lose to Y" garbage.

6 hours ago, wurms said:

No other trip aces list could beat this cis aces. Nantex just killed that archetype. You need a swarm, or medium/large ships in your list now. If not, you are just rolling the dice with matchups. Im sure Duncan Howard will prove me wrong with Vader, Soontir, Dutchess and a 25pt bid at Worlds or something, lol.

This. The Nantex I have seen lost badly to imperial and scum aces due to being underbid. Sun Fac does not like moving first, but he will do very bad things if he has the bid.

That said, I have had my Nantex out and will report that though I was victorious it is very hard to escape multiple arcs consistently.

The Nantex really isn’t all that. Just practice and you’ll learn the art of killing it the same as any other unshielded low hp ace.

I have to wonder how this thing got released. Fundamentally the thing has crazy action economy and some of it is very unfun to be on the other end of. Sun Fac gets a re-position and a rotate action regardless of overlapping, a focus or evade if it gets an action phase, to re-position an enemy, and an extra attack die while reducing my defense die. This thing should have been killed in its cradle. How did this even get to play-testing?

And tractor is already a mechanic of questionable fun and fairness and it's appearance on anything other than at minimum a large based ship has always felt out of place.

If Sun Fac was while he was tractored he got the extra dice then it would play towards the skill aspect more. Ensnare would effectively only be used defensively, if brought at all, and he'd lose his extra die to move a ship or keep the tractor and take the risk.

7 hours ago, DR4CO said:

That's funny, I could have sworn that a year back we restarted the whole bloody game to get away from that "play X or lose to Y" garbage.

Oh, we did. But we're back. So we need to find ways to win against it. Instead of just playing aces and crying about aces not working.

Stop crying and adapt. Play something new. Geez.

8 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:

Oh, we did. But we're back. So we need to find ways to win against it. Instead of just playing aces and crying about aces not working.

Stop crying and adapt. Play something new. Geez.

Part of the problem, though, is that it's not just Ace-players who dislike them. And even some people who win against them don't like playing against them. It's a bigger issue than a couple Aces upset that they lost, especially when it runs counter to our expectations for 2E. Yes, people need to adapt to a changing game, but FFG also needs to fix problems.

4 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Part of the problem, though, is that it's not just Ace-players who dislike them. And even some people who win against them don't like playing against them. It's a bigger issue than a couple Aces upset that they lost, especially when it runs counter to our expectations for 2E. Yes, people need to adapt to a changing game, but FFG also needs to fix problems.

Sure. But until January... Adapt.

I don't find Nantex with Ensnare very much fun to play against. That's all I really have to contribute.

7 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:

Oh, we did. But we're back. So we need to find ways to win against it. Instead of just playing aces and crying about aces not working.

Stop crying and adapt. Play something new. Geez.

this is precisely why this argument continues, because the "two sides" of this aren't even having the same debate.

Plus the devs have already mentioned they know it's a problem. Keep the faith folks, they'll fix the Sun Fac problem (and hopefully the regen problem too).

1 hour ago, Captain Lackwit said:

Sure. But until January... Adapt.

1 hour ago, Micanthropyre said:

Plus the devs have already mentioned they know it's a problem. Keep the faith folks, they'll fix the Sun Fac problem (and hopefully the regen problem too).

As long as they don't throw the baby out with the bathwater and keep non-ensnare Nantex fun and interesting to use.

1 hour ago, Captain Lackwit said:

Oh, we did. But we're back. So we need to find ways to win against it. Instead of just playing aces and crying about aces not working.

Stop crying and adapt. Play something new. Geez.

The problem there is that Nantex is the "something new."

Nantex is what drives guys out of groups. One guy wants something new so gets the new hotness. New hotness is busted and your choice to counter it doesn't exist in your collection or does and isn't any good either. Now one of the promises or at least implications of 2nd Ed. is broken and you have to "keep up" with all the new things or get pummeled.

1 hour ago, JJ48 said:

FFG also needs to fix problems.

Or maybe not release them in the first place.

15 hours ago, wurms said:

The problen isnt that they are OP. You can catch them. The problem is they are not fun to play against in the same manner kylo in 1st ed. was not fun to fly against, because of the auto blinded pilot. Sun Fac basically puts a blinded pilot on one ship per round by tractoring it out of arc, or onto rocks, no matter how well you out fly him.

Is sun fac going to win worlds? I doubt it. There should be enough nantex that they have a good showing in top 16, but its not going to obliterate everything.

I just faced sun,chertek,grevious with my maul, chertek, 4 vultures, and killed both sun and chertek in the match. But sun was eating vultures. I block him with one vulture, have two others in arc, then he tractors himself out of the two arcs, and tractors the blocker into his bullseye and one shots it. Without Maul+sense, i woulda got wrecked in this match. Its ridiculous what these things can do, even when blocked.

No other trip aces list could beat this cis aces. Nantex just killed that archetype. You need a swarm, or medium/large ships in your list now. If not, you are just rolling the dice with matchups. Im sure Duncan Howard will prove me wrong with Vader, Soontir, Dutchess and a 25pt bid at Worlds or something, lol.

Just change the timing of pinpoint tractor to system phase, and then the ship will be a cool fun ship without the NPE element since you can outfly it and its your own fault if you get caught in its turret arc.

What was your list?

24 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

As long as they don't throw the baby out with the bathwater and keep non-ensnare Nantex fun and interesting to use.

Agreed. I don't think FFG wants to make an entire new ship essentially unplayable.

It's really too bad they printed two pilots that essentially require you to take the stupid busted EPT that was printed with them.

I think one important piece of context to keep in mind is that most ships new to 2e (that is, not just 1e reprints) have either needed either nerfs or buffs. Almost nothing has been fine out of the gate.

• Wave 1: Escape Craft nerfs ( Scum YT-1300 unchanged )
• Wave 2: RZ-2 A-Wing nerfs
• Wave 3: Jedi readjustments (mostly nerfs, but it's kind of complicated), ARC buffs, Torrent buffs, Vulture uffs, Belbullab buffs, Sith Infiltrator adjustments (nerfed for Maul/Dooku).
• Wave 4: Transport Pod (Finn) nerfs. Resistance Transport, Hyena, N-1 otherwise unchanged so far.

Only four out of thirteen ships between Waves 1 and 4 didn't need changes.

4 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I think one important piece of context to keep in mind is that most ships new to 2e (that is, not just 1e reprints) have either needed either nerfs or buffs. Almost nothing has been fine out of the gate.

• Wave 1: Escape Craft nerfs ( Scum YT-1300 unchanged )
• Wave 2: RZ-2 A-Wing nerfs
• Wave 3: Jedi readjustments (mostly nerfs, but it's kind of complicated), ARC buffs, Torrent buffs, Vulture uffs, Belbullab buffs, Sith Infiltrator adjustments (nerfed for Maul/Dooku).
• Wave 4: Transport Pod (Finn) nerfs. Resistance Transport, Hyena, N-1 otherwise unchanged so far.

Only four out of thirteen ships between Waves 1 and 4 didn't need changes.

Perhaps the issue is that the 1st Ed. reprints are "fixed" and the new stuff is in fact "new." So the designers have caught themselves between two game systems. Combine it a bit with their own having not let go of 1st Edition a bit. Nantex Ensnare fits right in with the end of 1st Ed.

24 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

Perhaps the issue is that the 1st Ed. reprints are "fixed" and the new stuff is in fact "new." So the designers have caught themselves between two game systems. Combine it a bit with their own having not let go of 1st Edition a bit. Nantex Ensnare fits right in with the end of 1st Ed.

Maybe. If I was being thorough, I'd note that a lot of conversion kit ships have gotten either buffs or nerfs, and that very few ships came out well-priced. However, there's lots of ships in there, and counting out which got buffs/nerfs vs stayed the same would be more work than I feel like doing. There's almost surely a larger proportion which remained the same, however.

Meanwhile, Nantex seems like a particularly hard ship to balance without lots of on-table reps. I've convinced myself that it got pretty major nerfs between playtesting and release (no mod slots when it seemed like it might have even had two, high price scaling on Ensnare).

1 hour ago, RunnerAZ said:

What was your list?

Darth Maul (67)
Sense (5)
Tractor Beam (2)

Trade Federation Drone (19)

Trade Federation Drone (19)

Trade Federation Drone (19)

Trade Federation Drone (19)

Chertek (39)
Ensnare (10)
Crack Shot (1)
Total: 200

17 minutes ago, wurms said:

Darth Maul (67)
Sense (5)
Tractor Beam (2)

Trade Federation Drone (19)

Trade Federation Drone (19)

Trade Federation Drone (19)

Trade Federation Drone (19)

Chertek (39)
Ensnare (10)
Crack Shot (1)
Total: 200

Independent of whether that's cancer or not: In some way the combination of mini swarm, ace and large base has something beautiful

50 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Independent of whether that's cancer or not: In some way the combination of mini swarm, ace and large base has something beautiful

Yeah, I think that's a cool combo of ships, independent of opinions on Nantex and Ensnare.

2 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Maybe. If I was being thorough, I'd note that a lot of conversion kit ships have gotten either buffs or nerfs, and that very few ships came out well-priced. However, there's lots of ships in there, and counting out which got buffs/nerfs vs stayed the same would be more work than I feel like doing. There's almost surely a larger proportion which remained the same, however.

Meanwhile, Nantex seems like a particularly hard ship to balance without lots of on-table reps. I've convinced myself that it got pretty major nerfs between playtesting and release (no mod slots when it seemed like it might have even had two, high price scaling on Ensnare).

Given that Sun Fac's 3 threat quick build, which should theoretically be around 75 points, is actually over 90, I suspect a lot changed.