Do you see how your logic fails to hold up?

Just now, executor said:

Do you see how your logic fails to hold up?

Not really. Can you honestly say you think the discussion would simply end if they locked this one thread? My statement wasn't based on what people should do, or what I would like people to do; but on what I think people would do. Because even if people are restating the same ideas, they still want to talk about it.

Your idea, on the other hand, is just trying to make a point, and doesn't really sound that serious (I notice that, as of the time of this writing, you haven't actually created a new thread). One person presenting a hypothetical situation to make a point isn't really the same thing is numerous people actually doing something because they're genuinely interested in it.

1 minute ago, JJ48 said:

Not really. Can you honestly say you think the discussion would simply end if they locked this one thread? My statement wasn't based on what people should do, or what I would like people to do; but on what I think people would do. Because even if people are restating the same ideas, they still want to talk about it.

Your idea, on the other hand, is just trying to make a point, and doesn't really sound that serious (I notice that, as of the time of this writing, you haven't actually created a new thread). One person presenting a hypothetical situation to make a point isn't really the same thing is numerous people actually doing something because they're genuinely interested in it.

It's not even a discussion anymore. It's redundant whining

21 minutes ago, executor said:

You're right!

I should just keep making a new mocking thread then every time they remove it until they get the hint!

You’re mocking thread specifically asked for people not to bring their opinions that differed from yours. This one at least doesn’t put that kind of restriction on posters. I understand your frustration, but you aren’t the solution to the complaining. You are doing the exact same thing, just different tune.

So, what do you want to accomplish? Be a voice of reason or just add to the noise of complaining?

1 minute ago, SabineKey said:

You’re mocking thread specifically asked for people not to bring their opinions that differed from yours. This one at least doesn’t put that kind of restriction on posters. I understand your frustration, but you aren’t the solution to the complaining. You are doing the exact same thing, just different tune.

So, what do you want to accomplish? Be a voice of reason or just add to the noise of complaining?

Nope. I'm mocking the constant whining that has zero new concerns. I'm mocking the never ending whining of the same thing over and over and over again

Just like how my 8 year old nephew whines and whines until he finally gets what he wants from his parents.

It's annoying

Are we adults here? or children?

Just now, executor said:

Nope. I'm mocking the constant whining that has zero new concerns. I'm mocking the never ending whining of the same thing over and over and over again

Just like how my 8 year old nephew whines and whines until he finally gets what he wants from his parents.

It's annoying

Are we adults here? or children?

How is your use of mockery make you the adult? From someone who’s been trying to stay out of this conversation, you are just as much of a child as the people you rage against. Again, what is your goal? Reason, or more childish behavior?

6 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

How is your use of mockery make you the adult? From someone who’s been trying to stay out of this conversation, you are just as much of a child as the people you rage against. Again, what is your goal? Reason, or more childish behavior?

Because when it comes to the internet making valid intelligent responses always get overlooked and lost in the never ending wave of foolishness.

The term fighting fire with fire comes to mind.

People respond to things that stand out and bring some form of drama to their lives

What people don't usually respond to is boring logic.

Now you know my reasoning

What's your reasoning for supporting the redundant whining?

Just now, executor said:

It's not even a discussion anymore. It's redundant whining

1. Whether it's whining or discussion, people still seem interested in continuing to talk about it. Can you honestly tell me you think the topic would be dropped if this thread were locked?

2. If redundancy is a reason to lock a thread, then you've already answered why the other thread (and any future attempts at similar threads) would either be locked or merged with this one, as long as it's active. Not only are other threads about whether the Nantex is OP or NPE redundant, but complaints about such threads are also taking place in this thread, making threads such complaint threads similarly redundant.

3. You don't like this thread and you don't think it's contributing to the discussion anymore, and yet you still continue to post continuously in it. Why?

4. I'm less certain of this one, but I do find it conceivable that your thoroughly open hostility towards the OP and NPE crowds may have played a part in the other thread getting locked. It's one thing to disagree with people, even quite strongly. However, making an entire thread to belittle people with opposing views comes across as a personal attack rather than a legitimate argument. Case in point:

2 minutes ago, executor said:

Nope. I'm mocking the constant whining that has zero new concerns. I'm mocking the never ending whining of the same thing over and over and over again

Just like how my 8 year old nephew whines and whines until he finally gets what he wants from his parents.

It's annoying

Are we adults here? or children?

There is no argument here, only lumping everyone together as "whining". Personally, I've seen people on both sides of the discussion make some good points, and address some of the other side's points. And that's not even counting the fact that there can always be people new to the discussion, or who think of a new point, and who will want a place to continue talking. Why simply dismiss all that as "whining"?

If people are truly done bringing up anything new or interesting, the thread will die naturally. If people do want to keep talking, though, we should try to keep it civil rather than simply attacking those on the other side of the divide. And if someone doesn't want to take part in the discussion, there are many, many other excellent threads on this board that can serve as alternate places to spend time, instead.

2 minutes ago, executor said:

Because when it comes to the internet making valid intelligent responses always get overlooked and lost in the never ending wave of foolishness.

The term fighting fire with fire comes to mind.

People respond to things that stand out and bring some form of drama to their lives

What people don't usually respond to is boring logic.

Now you know my reasoning

What's your reasoning for supporting the redundant whining?

Ah. More childish behavior. I said nothing in support of redundant whining. That’s your words you are trying to put in my mouth. No dice, friend. As you seem content to be that which you despise, I will leave you to it. Good day.

Nah man. I had my fun. I'm done

I want to use this moment to - once more - advertise the usage of the ignore function that this forum offers.

8 hours ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

No one has to prove jack to you, especially because OP =/= a negative play experience. But you probably will end up seeing the Nantex in tournaments.

To clarify for those who don't know (and to bring the thread back on topic):

OP means "overpowered". When something is OP, it will generally be obviously better than similarly-priced options, or cheaper than similarly-powered options. A price increase usually fixes this.

NPE means "negative player experience". OP things may be NPE for a time, but NPE does not automatically imply something is OP. Usually, though, NPE things are something that feels "unfair", even if the power isn't too high. Usually, this feeling is brought about by a ship or upgrade doing too many things at once, or being a bit too unique; and often can't be fixed by a price increase (because a low increase wouldn't actually stop the problem, and a high increase would price it out of the game entirely).

An example of NPE in 2E was the combination of TIE Phantoms and some really potent Crew options. Having powerful Crew on a hyper-mobile platform with good defenses was just not fun, yet increasing prices was problematic. Whether it was too powerful or not, many people didn't find it fun to face Sloane manipulating the encounter without having any opportunity to deal with her, or with Vader always able to be in position to both use his ability and avoid counterattack. Increasing the price of the ship would have just meant it wouldn't be playable without Crew, and increasing the cost of the Crew upgrades would just make them unplayable on the more balanced Crew characters. Price changes couldn't fix the issue, so FFG had to instead actually change the slot on the TIE Phantom from Crew to Gunner. This made the TIE Phantom still affordable for those who wanted to play it without Crew anyway, and still kept the Crew playable on the less mobile platforms.

I haven't actually played or played against the Nantex, so I can't directly say if the assessments of NPE-ness are correct (though people make a very convincing case for it), but I do want people to realize that claiming something is NPE is not the same as claiming that it's OP, and NPE generally can't be fixed in the same way.

24 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

I haven't actually played or played against the Nantex, so I can't directly say if the assessments of NPE-ness are correct (though people make a very convincing case for it), but I do want people to realize that claiming something is NPE is not the same as claiming that it's OP, and NPE generally can't be fixed in the same way.

Indeed. Ultimately, even a weak squad that most people can beat can be a negative experience if it's reliably not fun to play against.

NPE is something everyone has to define for themselves (and it's fair to say some people define it as " because I lost ") - the most commonly accepted argument being those things which remove a player's ability to do stuff - Blue in Magic the Gathering, or Tzeench in Chaos in the Old World is often accused of this; winning not so much by winning as by preventing the other player(s) from doing anything.

I'll Show You The Dark Side is/was often accused of this (especially in 1st edition where Blinded Pilot actively stopped you attacking instead of just leaving you with unmodified dice).

On 10/3/2019 at 1:01 PM, JJ48 said:

So, because the individual parts are seen elsewhere, combining them all is alright? You would be OK with a ship that had all basic maneuvers in blue and white k-turns, based on the justification that other ships have each of those individual maneuvers? And would the fact that 4 Red dice, Turret Arcs, 3 Green dice, 6 Hull, 6 Shields, and 3 regenerating Force are all found on other ships similarly be reason enough to put all of them on this hypothetical ship?

Hm...I think we just developed a Sun Crusher.

You forgot to add both autothrusters and adaptive ailerons

3 hours ago, JJ48 said:

I 'm guessing that the mods figured there was no need to have multiple threads about the same issue, even if one of them was primarily about dismissing and mocking other players' concerns.

But one is about people beating a dead horse. And the other one was people joking about beating a dead horse. Also I was having fun on one of those threads.

I'd like to remind the community that the ignore user function is available. Oops, I'm sorry. I suppose that I was supposed to childishly derail this thread first and make a juvenile "shut up" thread before saying this.

I'm willing to bet that most people (in support of either argument) have played with/against Sun Fac much less times than they have commented about him...

Although thought exersices are great to have would't it be more prudent to have a little more data/experience (like Words for example) before we declare how op/npe he is(n't).

Just saying...

50 minutes ago, C3gorach said:

I'm willing to bet that most people (in support of either argument) have played with/against Sun Fac much less times than they have commented about him...

Although thought exersices are great to have would't it be more prudent to have a little more data/experience (like Words for example) before we declare how op/npe he is(n't).

Just saying...

OP, maybe. NPE is determined best by just talking to a bunch of players who have played it or against it, as well as simply looking at what it can and can't do.

19 hours ago, C3gorach said:

I'm willing to bet that most people (in support of either argument) have played with/against Sun Fac much less times than they have commented about him...

Although thought exersices are great to have would't it be more prudent to have a little more data/experience (like Words for example) before we declare how op/npe he is(n't).

Just saying...

Although the Devs stated in the AMA in response to concerns about the Nantex that they would not be making changes to it before Worlds to allow people to prepare for it with known factors and not wanting to change things with a short time frame, I think there was some hope that we could avoid another situation like the 1E Jumpmaster where a broken ship took multiple World Championship titles before the developers stepped in to do something about it.

I have played the Nantex now several times since it became available. Both virtually vs AI (fly casual) and 'in reality'.

First try was a two ship list with Darth Maul an Sun Fac. I had plenty of upgrades on both and that's why I called it Dark Tricks. Great victories I had against aces (Vader, Soontir, Echo and Wedge, Luke, Jake Dutch)

Naturally, I lost games too - especially against more ship lists where it gets harder to avoid all the arcs, namely Sinker Swarm and Sloane Swarm.

So, I updated my list now into a slim version of Darth and Sun Fac in order to squeeze in two lvl 1 vulture droids.

With this list I am currently content.

Regarding the current discussion whether the Nantex is a NPE I came to the following conclusion for myself: as an opponent it simply depends on your favourite lists and playstyle. Sun Fac is the natural predator and hard counter on all aces but have tough moments against more arcs and medium and large based ships.

So, as long as one prefers the super mobile high initiative aces lists depending on their mobility and number of green dice it becomes now more challenging for them.

For all the other players there is simply a new ace guy in the neiborhood...

7 minutes ago, Banjo79 said:

I have played the Nantex now several times since it became available. Both virtually vs AI (fly casual) and 'in reality'.

First try was a two ship list with Darth Maul an Sun Fac. I had plenty of upgrades on both and that's why I called it Dark Tricks. Great victories I had against aces (Vader, Soontir, Echo and Wedge, Luke, Jake Dutch)

Naturally, I lost games too - especially against more ship lists where it gets harder to avoid all the arcs, namely Sinker Swarm and Sloane Swarm.

So, I updated my list now into a slim version of Darth and Sun Fac in order to squeeze in two lvl 1 vulture droids.

With this list I am currently content.

Regarding the current discussion whether the Nantex is a NPE I came to the following conclusion for myself: as an opponent it simply depends on your favourite lists and playstyle. Sun Fac is the natural predator and hard counter on all aces but have tough moments against more arcs and medium and large based ships.

So, as long as one prefers the super mobile high initiative aces lists depending on their mobility and number of green dice it becomes now more challenging for them.

For all the other players there is simply a new ace guy in the neiborhood...

Do we know that everyone who finds it NPE favors Aces? That certainly hasn't been my impression, based on forum posts.

21 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Do we know that everyone who finds it NPE favors Aces? That certainly hasn't been my impression, based on forum posts.

Certainly not true in my case. I flew Vennie, Nien and Zari against three Nantex. The player was one I generally enjoy playing against ... he's friendly, relaxed, and reasonable. Nevertheless, it was a profoundly unenjoyable game for me. I felt as if literally none of my decisions mattered, except inasmuch as they were (50/50 at best) guesses. Nien and Zari managed one shot each. In the entire game. None of my ships were destroyed, all were halved, and I lost something like 100 to 54. I never had a chance.

2 hours ago, JJ48 said:

Do we know that everyone who finds it NPE favors Aces? That certainly hasn't been my impression, based on forum posts.

I generally don’t. I favor Starvipers, Scyks and I-4 trash.

2 hours ago, JJ48 said:

Do we know that everyone who finds it NPE favors Aces? That certainly hasn't been my impression, based on forum posts.

I lost twice flying 5 A-Wings. It was horrific.