I would like to show the shenanigans that the Nantex, and in particular, Sun Fac can pull off and why its declared a NPE (Negative Play Experience), for anyone who has yet to face it. I like the ship and love flying Chertek!

Lets see why small ships have no chance vs Sun Fac and why NPE is being branded on the nantex ship.

Below, we have Luke, outside range 3. He wants to stay away from Sun Fac range 1, so he does the slowest maneuver he can, a 1 straight. But if Luke did math, it doesn't matter what move he did, cause he is getting tractored by Sun Fac.

If Luke moves 1 straight + his 1 base, that is 2 base lengths he moved. Sun Fac just needs a tad more than 3 base lengths to reach range 1. So even if Sun Fac dials in a 1 hard (1 base + 1 hard turn slight movement, lets call it qtr base length) + his tractored barrel roll 1 base + 1 straight. Sun Fac as now gone a tad over 3 base lengths and has range 1 on Luke.

Lets assume you have Sense equipped on Luke and see Sun is doing a 1 hard left. You have read or been told that you need to get directly behind Sun Fac as he cannot turn his turret to the rear. That is the safety zone. So, you 4 straight and boost. Aha! Did it! Or did you?

But you are clever. You are not gonna head on joust Sun Fac like some noob. You are going to flank and approach at angles. Get him at range 3. Thats it!

With a single arc ship, there is little you can do, other than pray the Sun Fac player makes mistakes. There are few safe zones when approaching Sun Fac. Luckily, we get to bring more ships with us!

I think its a cool ship with a cool ability that really makes the pilot have to plan out a few turns ahead with that turret, but perhaps Ensnare is implemented poorly with "At start of Engagement Phase" instead of "When you engage"?

Good luck out there!

Heaven forbid that a single ship challenge the absolute superiority of Aces. Better give it the JM5k treatment(tm) ASAP!

19 minutes ago, Kleeg005 said:

Heaven forbid that a single ship challenge the absolute superiority of Aces. Better give it the JM5k treatment(tm) ASAP!

It challenges EVERYTHING*, not just aces. Anything that tries to approach this head on will get screwed.

And oh, you think you can just send a bunch of ships at it? It'll evade and weather the storm.

*Medium/Large bases will have to contend with Sun Fac's Vulture Swarm backing him up. Or multiple nantex.

... Looks like a description of issues with Ensnare, not Sun Fac. Changing to "when you engage" really doesn't change anything on Sun.

On the one hand: ❤️ Enby Buggy Bae.

On the other hand:

50 minutes ago, wurms said:

I was already prepared

This is fantastic on all levels @wurms .

1 hour ago, Hiemfire said:

... Looks like a description of issues with Ensnare, not Sun Fac. Changing to "when you engage" really doesn't change anything on Sun.

When you engage means the Sun Fac player would have to choose to either shoot first, or move last versus other I6's. If he engages after other I6's, then they dont get tractored until after they have fired.

My only concern with that ruling, is that the lower initiative ships get screwed over, and then we have another interceptor with useless ships other than the I6.

I think Sun Fac really should have been i5. There is a reason Guri was not an initiative 6, and why Super Kylo was not initiative 6. Not shooting ships is NPE

2 minutes ago, wurms said:

When you engage means the Sun Fac player would have to choose to either shoot first, or move last versus other I6's. If he engages after other I6's, then they dont get tractored until after they have fired.

*cough* block/bump, don't let you shoot, roll you away for a r1 shot *cough*

(would that work?!)

I've had a recent thought that if we can't find a step where the Ensnare trigger works better in without it being complete garbage on anyone besides Sun Fac, since the card was designed to be stapled to all Nantex then maybe shifting Pinpoint Tractor Array from "After you execute" to "During the System Phase" which forces the reposition and turret direction to happen before anyone moves. Could provide some interesting results to lower initiative versions being blockers in their turret arc. Sun Fac might get hurt a lot by it, but honestly that's where points can readjust him down a bit if necessary since none of us are too worried about keeping i6 Ensnare around as is.

1 hour ago, wurms said:

I would like to show the shenanigans that the Nantex, and in particular, Sun Fac can pull off and why its declared a NPE (Negative Play Experience), for anyone who has yet to face it. I like the ship and love flying Chertek!

Lets see why small ships have no chance vs Sun Fac and why NPE is being branded on the nantex ship.

Below, we have Luke, outside range 3. He wants to stay away from Sun Fac range 1, so he does the slowest maneuver he can, a 1 straight. But if Luke did math, it doesn't matter what move he did, cause he is getting tractored by Sun Fac.

If Luke moves 1 straight + his 1 base, that is 2 base lengths he moved. Sun Fac just needs a tad more than 3 base lengths to reach range 1. So even if Sun Fac dials in a 1 hard (1 base + 1 hard turn slight movement, lets call it qtr base length) + his tractored barrel roll 1 base + 1 straight. Sun Fac as now gone a tad over 3 base lengths and has range 1 on Luke.

Lets assume you have Sense equipped on Luke and see Sun is doing a 1 hard left. You have read or been told that you need to get directly behind Sun Fac as he cannot turn his turret to the rear. That is the safety zone. So, you 4 straight and boost. Aha! Did it! Or did you?

But you are clever. You are not gonna head on joust Sun Fac like some noob. You are going to flank and approach at angles. Get him at range 3. Thats it!

With a single arc ship, there is little you can do, other than pray the Sun Fac player makes mistakes. There are few safe zones when approaching Sun Fac. Luckily, we get to bring more ships with us!

I think its a cool ship with a cool ability that really makes the pilot have to plan out a few turns ahead with that turret, but perhaps Ensnare is implemented poorly with "At start of Engagement Phase" instead of "When you engage"?

Good luck out there!

my favorite bit is checking these to see if its any different if the turret is in a different direction (it's not)

If you cause your own ship to be tractored, you shouldn't be allowed to move it. Problem solved. You're welcome, FFG.

1 minute ago, ObiWonka said:

If you cause your own ship to be tractored, you shouldn't be allowed to move it. Problem solved. You're welcome, FFG.

But that's the cool part of the Nantex.

Moving other people is the biggest problem IMO.

4 minutes ago, MegaSilver said:

But that's the cool part of the Nantex.

Moving other people is the biggest problem IMO.

But its dial is already incredibly good. Plus this way you better be sure you can actually pass your token off without a free extra move with perfect information, otherwise you just made yourself an easy target.

Most of these require the turret to be facing the wrong way that does put a limit on things.

5 hours ago, Kleeg005 said:

Heaven forbid that a single ship challenge the absolute superiority of Aces. Better give it the JM5k treatment(tm) ASAP!

You sound like a man trapped in a burning house who, instead of being worried that he's trapped in a burning house, is laughing at the other guy trapped in the house as well.

Yes, Ensnare is good vs aces, but that is only because Ensnare is an anti-small base card and aces just happen to be small bases. But those innocent little generics everyone seems to adore are small bases, too, and they're just as screwed -- if not more so.

I've only played against the Nantex in one game, and the swarm I was playing against only had one.

I got to the end game and kept blocking him (which I was trying to do), but it basically did me no good.

If the Pinpoint Tractor Array rules were changed from "execute a maneuver" to " fully execute a maneuver," would that make a difference?

All this Nantex hysteria doesn’t bother me. As I’ve said before, any game where a meta becomes all X or squads to counter x don’t (shouldn’t) last very long. If it’s that stupid powerful it’s gotta get nerfed or Ensnare is gonna be upwards of 40 points.

19 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Most of these require the turret to be facing the wrong way that does put a limit on things.

first gif: Arc is forward.
If arc left, no change
If arc right, hard 1 right rotate left is equivalent.

second gif: Arc is forward.
If arc left roll down rotate right gets luke
If arc right, no change

third gif: Arc is left.
If arc right, no change
If arc forward, rolling forward instead of mid and rotate left gets luke

30 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Most of these require the turret to be facing the wrong way that does put a limit on things.

You do realize that all the initial facing does is is that sometimes he would 1hard the other way, right? Jagsba shows this above.

It doesn't do **** if his arc is to whatever side- Surely Sum ***'s player is aware of which way his own arc is facing while he sets a dial.

So, leave aside for a second whether or not the Nantex is a problem in need of FFG solution, and presume that it is a problem. What changes could be made to Sun Fac specifically, Ensnare broadly, and the Nantex generally? I'm not particularly interested in whether these are good ideas, or necessary ideas, but what is possible? **** Jeff Goldblum, I'm interested in whether it can be done, more than whether it should be done.

• Points and Slots. Easy. Classic. Also boring and uninteresting.
  • However, these things already feel somewhat pre-nerfed, with Ensnare starting at 24, and no Mod slots on a ship which was almost certainly designed to have one if not two mods.
  • But things can always be nerfed more.
    • Points up even more?
    • Only one Talent Slot?
• Rules Reference Adjustment?
  • One option: you can't move yourself when you tractor yourself (per @ObiWonka )
    • Personally, I don't like this one. Squishy ship like this shouldn't be without reposition at all... Also shuts down a lot of other ships having tricks with tractors.
  • Other Rules?
• Errata
  • Total Obliteration. Complete rewrite to some inscrutable other theme than tractor shenanigans.
  • Pinpoint Tractor Array Errata from "execute a maneuver" to "fully execute". Blocks stopping the tricks would allow more counterplay, which is good.
    • Corollary: Rules Reference Adjustment: obstacles no longer allow "fully execute" triggers, for this, for Jedi, for Full Throttle.
  • Ensnare Errata from Range 0-1 to Range 1. Kind of the partner to Blocks stopping PTA would be for throwing a block to prevent you from using Ensnare. I mean, Old Terroch doesn't work on a block, and that's fair.
  • Other Errata?

Any other concepts? Again, not super into whether the ideas are wise ones to implement, just what could be done to tweak stuff.

18 minutes ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

You do realize that all the initial facing does is is that sometimes he would 1hard the other way, right? Jagsba shows this above.

It doesn't do **** if his arc is to whatever side- Surely Sum ***'s player is aware of which way his own arc is facing while he sets a dial.

All I’m saying is I’ve had cases where I kind of needed the turret to be the same way.

Moy did limit a few moves

4 hours ago, Kleeg005 said:

Heaven forbid that a single ship challenge the absolute superiority of Aces. Better give it the JM5k treatment(tm) ASAP!

If an ace is challenging the superiority of aces, then nothing is really changing. It’s not as if swarms or lower initiative not-so-ace ships magically have an easier time against the Nantex. Medium or Biggun bases, sure... Sum Fakker can’t move them on his own. But a wolf-pack of Nantex ships consisting Sum Fakker, Chertek, and a random Arena Ace will still provide a pair of 4s and a 6 to deal with who when focused on a target, WILL burn it down and likely toss it’s fat butt onto a rock.

Also I don’t think anyone is calling for the JM5K treatment. Let’s not be unreasonably harsh here... But I am all for making it so if they get blocked they can’t self-tractor to rotate turret.