Currently school rank 2 and just picked up the Court of Stone book. I am in no way built for the duel format as outlined so any advice would be greatly appreciated. This edition is the first I've played L5R and its great.
The GM keeps the character sheets but as I remember:
Mirumoto
Earth/Fire 3, Void/Water/Air 2
Martial Arts Melee 3
Famously Honest, Ally of Crab Clan
Ninjo: Defeat all Clan Champions(yeah... )
All good. You are one of the best duelist in the game as is. Just pick Iaijutsu crossing cut and you are gucci. And never ever use predict/center. Just smash your opponent with earth ring and when you think you can finish things off, use fire.
Really? Because it really seems like it neutralizes the school when you're only allowed to use one weapon.
4 hours ago, Bearden said:Really? Because it really seems like it neutralizes the school when you're only allowed to use one weapon.
If you refuse to use a second weapon... it does, a bit. Because if you use Way of the Dragon (an awesome ability in both duels and skirmishes) you forfeit the use of the weapon until your next turn - meaning you can't strike back.
I would put in 3 observations.
5 hours ago, Bearden said:Ninjo: Defeat all Clan Champions(yeah... )
Well...it's supposed to be aspirational!
5 hours ago, Avatar111 said:Just pick Iaijutsu crossing cut and you are gucci.
There is an argument for rising blade depending on the type of duel you expect to fight, too. It's on your curriculum, so you get full credit towards your second school rank and the ability to way-of-the-dragon two dice instead of one.
Given the way it works, it is essentially a TN1 drop in the difficulty of a finishing blow - making it awesome for duels to the death and potentially useful in duels to first blood - and if you're just using it as a way to draw your wakizashi so you have a blade out but (unlike a prepare action) to get a check to fish for
(such as fire
to add strife to an opponent), the fact that against an alert opponent it's probably TN3+ is less of an issue because you're probably not too stressed about whether you succeed or not.
(Yes, I know in formal crane-style duels where you get penalised for 'worthless' strikes it becomes less attractive. Tactics vary with the terms of the duel)
Crossing Blade is better for duels to first strike or incapacitation, where you want to be reliably laying lots of fatigue on an opponent from the first action you get. It's also a great option in a skirmish - turning your katana into a weapon temporarily better than most polearms. Having an
option to let you draw your sidearm at the same time is priceless in an ambush too, because in air stance, with way of the dragon knocking away
a result, you'd be surprised how well you can fend off an unexpected mob of lower-grade minions, especially if one of the group is busy looking for some bodily extremities in the gutter from your attack.
6 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:It's also a great option in a skirmish - turning your katana into a weapon temporarily better than most polearms.
Please explain that. Would the katana not just get a base damage of 5? And only for one attack?
Edited by Harzerkatze1 hour ago, Harzerkatze said:Please explain that. Would the katana not just get a base damage of 5? And only for one attack?
Opportunities for razor-edge can also increase damage for that technique. And the range is 1-2 instead of the restrictive 2 like most polearms, plus it isn't cumbersome and can be performed with only one hand (you could have a shield in the other hand!)
And you could use a dagger w ith conceal to use the technique every turn, basically turning your dagger in one of the best and most versatile weapon in the game (and the best while on horseback!!)
Crossing Cut is slightly badly designed. But you expected that from me
Rising Blade is your friend, especially with errata. TN 1 on a finishing blow and range doesn't matter in duels.
Ask if your GM will let you use the Guard action from Skirmishes. If so, that's one of your go-to options. If you're a Fire main, do your best when making any check to inflict 2 strife. Swap to Earth if they run Water to avoid anything nasty. Unlike Avatar's advice, I've found that Predict is your best friend if you know the vaguely-strong rings your opponent has (unless they have 3+ Void). It just requires you to actually pay attention as a player (which is a lot to ask some groups, admittedly). Strife is all that matters in duels, and dropping 4 strife on someone is practically an instant victory, especially if it's a formal duel and you won't be able to make multiple attacks without losing several points (or forfeiting the match). Wait for the Finishing Blow. Even if it isn't a formal duel, the Finishing Blow is the deciding factor nine times out of ten until you're in the level 4+ range.
Ok, I'm not getting into that debate.
I will wait and see you keeping your weapon sheathed and gambling on using predict every round until you can use that amazing -1tn rising blade (because yeah, its just that, -1tn... When the dude have a melee 3...) Great strat. Btw, while you predict you do not roll any dice while the opponent does. I hope you have a good amount of void points to avoid the damage, because you will go down in 2 hits.
At -1point per strike beyond the first, and with the amount of points a crit and fatigue account for... Good luck on your gamble against an opponent with 3 melee. Oh, and hes got 10 composure.
Best friend indeed. You are better off using Guard in fire stance (which most sane GM wont allow in duel)
Edited by Avatar1111 hour ago, Avatar111 said:Ok, I'm not getting into that debate.
I will wait and see you keeping your weapon sheathed and gambling on using predict every round until you can use that amazing -1tn rising blade (because yeah, its just that, -1tn... When the dude have a melee 3...) Great strat. Btw, while you predict you do not roll any dice while the opponent does. I hope you have a good amount of void points to avoid the damage, because you will go down in 2 hits.
At -1point per strike beyond the first, and with the amount of points a crit and fatigue account for... Good luck on your gamble against an opponent with 3 melee. Oh, and hes got 10 composure.
Best friend indeed. You are better off using Guard in fire stance (which most sane GM wont allow in duel)
You'll note my qualifications- in a formal duel, just whipping out your sword and wailing on the other guy isn't an option. You will forfeit the duel if you do that. Battlefield duels, the second most common type, are usually also run with full armor, and go to death or similar, which again forces emphasis onto the Finishing Blow. I also can't say I've played with a group that didn't allow Guard to be used in duels before, which obviously changes the "meta" around them, but it's a perfectly reasonable addition to the format. Your advice on simply hitting them itself has qualifiers- Must be first blood, and must be low armor. I've only personally seen this format come up during sparring matches with bokken.
Running Fire, in this case, comes with a couple qualifiers. Your opponent can't be running something like Striking as Earth. It also gets significantly harder to deal direct damage against somebody in Air stance. That 1 TN buffer may not seem like much, but getting past it without picking up a couple strife (post initiative, staredown, etc) is going to be difficult even with 3 Melee. You run the risk of your opponent swapping to Water stance to Predict you out, in addition to taking some other action with a check (and likely knocking off more strife/fatigue that way, vanilla). Fire is very powerful in duels, yes, but you have to be absolutely sure your opponent can't simply outlast you. If you don't win by turn 3 (6 cumulative strife just from staredown, not including kept strife and initiative bids), you will find yourself on the business end of a Finishing Blow from a more conservative player. You'll have to be able to deal at least Endurance+1 damage without pitching over your Composure, without them reducing their Fatigue at all, and without them having a chance to Calming Breath before you hit them again.
Fire main Mirumoto is a fantastic build, don't get me wrong. It's an absolute blast to play- I've done it myself. But simply wailing on the other guy isn't a guaranteed victory.
A couple of points:
- While drawing a knife, attacking and sheathing it again with Crossing Blade no doubt sounds cinematically awesome, I remain unconvinced that that is the best weapon. Damage 4 +razor-edged isn't all that much considering you are locked into one technique. A katana has the same damage, you can draw it as Water 2nd action and attack however you like. Nodachi even better. You usually don't need a second free hand (I choose to ignore the Shadowlands shields). And why is it good on horseback?
- Is predict in Water Stance really a good option? You cannot attack on that turn.
- For duels not as high-prestiege as a Kakita court, carrying a kubi bukuro (p. 242) on your belt is a nice way to say "I'm going to kill you and wear your head for good luck" without words. And as Wargear, it makes your Fire stance Strife opportunities 50% more effective.
6 hours ago, Orolando said:You'll note my qualifications- in a formal duel, just whipping out your sword and wailing on the other guy isn't an option. You will forfeit the duel if you do that. Battlefield duels, the second most common type, are usually also run with full armor, and go to death or similar, which again forces emphasis onto the Finishing Blow. I also can't say I've played with a group that didn't allow Guard to be used in duels before, which obviously changes the "meta" around them, but it's a perfectly reasonable addition to the format. Your advice on simply hitting them itself has qualifiers- Must be first blood, and must be low armor. I've only personally seen this format come up during sparring matches with bokken.
Running Fire, in this case, comes with a couple qualifiers. Your opponent can't be running something like Striking as Earth. It also gets significantly harder to deal direct damage against somebody in Air stance. That 1 TN buffer may not seem like much, but getting past it without picking up a couple strife (post initiative, staredown, etc) is going to be difficult even with 3 Melee. You run the risk of your opponent swapping to Water stance to Predict you out, in addition to taking some other action with a check (and likely knocking off more strife/fatigue that way, vanilla). Fire is very powerful in duels, yes, but you have to be absolutely sure your opponent can't simply outlast you. If you don't win by turn 3 (6 cumulative strife just from staredown, not including kept strife and initiative bids), you will find yourself on the business end of a Finishing Blow from a more conservative player. You'll have to be able to deal at least Endurance+1 damage without pitching over your Composure, without them reducing their Fatigue at all, and without them having a chance to Calming Breath before you hit them again.
Fire main Mirumoto is a fantastic build, don't get me wrong. It's an absolute blast to play- I've done it myself. But simply wailing on the other guy isn't a guaranteed victory.
Rising blade is decent, with offhand wakisashi. But if your weapon is not out and you are at finishing blow time, something definitely went wrong. For a -1tn with offhand weapon on finishing blow, if you kept one hand free that is, is simply not very tempting... Not worth 3xp.
Even in water stance, predict is also an Attack action. It is extremely situational, predict cannot be considered a safe winning action, it is a very bad gamble to take. Striking only to fish for opportunities is actually better.
Yeah, I was considering formal duels with low armor. Wailing on an opponent is ok in such. Only -1 point for each strike beyond the first is really not much, if nothing at all. Actually, even in a battlefield duel with heavy armor , wailing on an opponent is probably the best option for opportunity fishing at least (strife management...)
Also, void point to take crit instead of fatigue is huge. As much as strife in most case and one of the reason why kakita is eventually a decent duelist (taking a crit is not an option against kakita).
And yeah, I agree with you composure is a very important stat. But not acting in hoping you will outlast you opponent is just not sane. Predict action is too weak and unreliable, and Rising Blade is honestly just very underwhelming. That is mostly what I was saying.
Being conservative (using Predict) is the worst option to take. Is it a guaranteed lost? No, its a dice game.
And if guard action is allowed, then yeah, is broken with a water duelist. But you need a weapon out to do it. So again, Rising Blade is out of the equation. But simply being able to guard+predict and heal strife with opp, is, too good imo.
Edited by Avatar11148 minutes ago, Harzerkatze said:A couple of points:
- While drawing a knife, attacking and sheathing it again with Crossing Blade no doubt sounds cinematically awesome, I remain unconvinced that that is the best weapon. Damage 4 +razor-edged isn't all that much considering you are locked into one technique. A katana has the same damage, you can draw it as Water 2nd action and attack however you like. Nodachi even better. You usually don't need a second free hand (I choose to ignore the Shadowlands shields). And why is it good on horseback?
The best? Not in all situation, but in a LOT of situations. It just becomes extremely versatile and safe. It is THE best on horseback because it is a movement action.
Shield, yeah, I agree.
Regarding Guard, if allowed in duels: a fist is a readied weapon (otherwise you could not Strike with it). So Water Stance, Guard + Predict with sheathed katana to be drawn as Rising Blade on a finishing blow should be legal.
Would you consider the Blessing of Steel ritual on a duel katana to be cheating? Invocations undoubtably are, but a ritualistic cleaning of the blade is something you are SUPPOSED to do...
1 hour ago, Harzerkatze said:Regarding Guard, if allowed in duels: a fist is a readied weapon (otherwise you could not Strike with it). So Water Stance, Guard + Predict with sheathed katana to be drawn as Rising Blade on a finishing blow should be legal.
A fist is not considered a weapon. While unarmed attack profiles function in the same way as weapons for many things, they are not strictly considered weapons (per p. 237).
That is as per the F.A.Q.
and Guard in duels is not "legal" it depends if your GM allows it as a "Unique action". I do not, I think it breaks duels, makes them even more dull.
19 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:A fist is not considered a weapon. While unarmed attack profiles function in the same way as weapons for many things, they are not strictly considered weapons (per p. 237).
I am aware if the FAQ, but do not think it applies here. The wording in Guard is exactly the same as in Strike, calling for a readied weapon. And you can Strike with a fist. Since both are subsequent entries on the same page, I would expect the same rules to apply. A kata is something different.
A classic case of an FAQ whose answer answers nothing...
Also from a logical POV, I see no reason why concentrating on defense instead of offense should not work unarmed. It is said that you never block strikes, anyway.
1 minute ago, Harzerkatze said:I am aware if the FAQ, but do not think it applies here. The wording in Guard is exactly the same as in Strike, calling for a readied weapon. And you can Strike with a fist. Since both are subsequent entries on the same page, I would expect the same rules to apply. A kata is something different.
A classic case of an FAQ whose answer answers nothing...
Also from a logical POV, I see no reason why concentrating on defense instead of offense should not work unarmed. It is said that you never block strikes, anyway.
I can agree with that, and also yeah, another case of extremely unclear wording/writing in this edition.
Though, that is even more of a reason to NOT allow Guard in duels lol
Just now, Avatar111 said:hough, that is even more of a reason to NOT allow Guard in duels lol
That is your prerogative as GM, of course.
But I like that it actually realistically opens up the possibility of duels where both sides only draw and strike no more than once. Since that is how they are often depicted, I rather like that.
1 minute ago, Harzerkatze said:That is your prerogative as GM, of course.
But I like that it actually realistically opens up the possibility of duels where both sides only draw and strike no more than once. Since that is how they are often depicted, I rather like that.
For first blood duel I can see a case... but for battlefield duels, I'd be scared of ultra turteling playstyle and just waiting for composure.
Anyway, won't allow it, I just feel it can be extremely abusable (and boring).
For the draw/strike win, I have my houserule to Rising Blade. So I'm cool.
I feel like the Predict action sees more use in Shugenja duels, seeing that most power damage invocations are Fire (Grasp of the Air Dragon and Rise, X nonwithstandig).
In Water stance, you can even cast a Support invocation while doing so.
Would be cool for an Agasha Mystic to predict Fire and cast Armor of Radiance from Water stance...
Edited by Harzerkatze2 hours ago, Avatar111 said:For first blood duel I can see a case... but for battlefield duels, I'd be scared of ultra turteling playstyle and just waiting for composure.
One of my primary troubles with dueling is that a "proper" Iaijutsu cut simply doesn't make any sense for anything less than a duel to the death. If your opponent isn't Compromised, an Iai cut can't Crit. If he does become Compromised, he's taking a finishing blow at Deadliness 10, minimum. And since he's Compromised (the Finishing Blow comes before he has a chance to Unmask), his Fitness roll can't keep Strife results, so he's probably ending up in Permanent Injury territory. I know back in the early days, people liked to gloat about how deadly this game was, but losing a hand in session 2 because you made a joke about a courtier's hat doesn't sound fun to me.
3 hours ago, Avatar111 said:For the draw/strike win, I have my houserule to Rising Blade. So I'm cool.
I remember a while ago you had added the ability to inflict a Critical Strike with 2 opportunities. Has it changed since then? I've considered altering it thus:
Remove "Your target cannot defend against this damage if they are Compromised," and add "2 Opp: The target cannot defend against this damage."
This does a few weird things. It changes nothing about Finishing Blow, because that's automatically a nasty Crit anyway. It
does
make it a little harder to Crit in a skirmish when your target becomes Compromised, because even though the TN is 1, you still have to spend those Opportunities. However, it
does
allow you to Crit an uncompromised target if you roll well enough, and it bypasses a turtle in Earth Stance.
I've already made Predict a TN 1 Sentiment check with
"2 Opp: If the check is successful, you may select a second element to predict."
Adding that second element is nice and all, but by making it a rolled action it also allows you to spend Opportunities in other ways. Fire can smack your opponent with extra Strife, Air can give you an extra Opportunity, making that Crit next round a little easier (and also protecting you a little from your opponent's Predict action), Earth can lessen any nasty Crits you're about to take, and Water can help reduce your Strife and Fatigue.
I should note that the Opportunity option for Predict would
not
allow you to get a double whammy. If you predict Earth and Water, and they choose Earth, they suffer 4 Strife and have to re-choose, but Water is safe now.
10 minutes ago, The Grand Falloon said:One of my primary troubles with dueling is that a "proper" Iaijutsu cut simply doesn't make any sense for anything less than a duel to the death. If your opponent isn't Compromised, an Iai cut can't Crit. If he does become Compromised, he's taking a finishing blow at Deadliness 10, minimum. And since he's Compromised (the Finishing Blow comes before he has a chance to Unmask), his Fitness roll can't keep Strife results, so he's probably ending up in Permanent Injury territory. I know back in the early days, people liked to gloat about how deadly this game was, but losing a hand in session 2 because you made a joke about a courtier's hat doesn't sound fun to me.
I agree finishing blows are "a bit" too deadly. I think doubling the deadliness is a bit too much, especially since bonus successes (and often opportunities too) will crank the deadliness. It could have been something like +rank to deadliness, or +X skill (melee?).
Anyway, yeah, I fully agree with you.
12 minutes ago, The Grand Falloon said:I remember a while ago you had added the ability to inflict a Critical Strike with 2 opportunities. Has it changed since then? I've considered altering it thus:
Remove "Your target cannot defend against this damage if they are Compromised," and add "2 Opp: The target cannot defend against this damage."
I actually took part of your ruling to make my own, and honestly it works wonder. A miraculous fix I think. It is still extremely hard to achieve the severity 5+ even with the fix, but it DOES allow it.
Iaijutsu Cut: Rising Blade:
add:
: if you succeed, the target cannot defend against the damage dealt by this technique.
(note that: the official FFG errata also makes the TN of this skill equal to the Vigilance of your target)
This is mostly a fix for duels, enabling the famed "first blood" Iaijustsu duels, without getting stalled by the Earth stance. This opportunity usage is in all ways weaker than a critical strike or the Heartpiercing Strike Kata... its only purpose is to bypass the Earth stance effect, and that, only on the draw. The fact that the TN is equal to the Vigilance of your target, and that there is no built in ways to increase the deadliness of this kata (with successes for example), makes it a hard move to pull off, but that can be attempted by specialised duelist, or with a lot of opportunities.
I didn't touch predict/center.
Center have its use with the Rising blade fix, to try to get a very good check! It is a valid option.
and Predict, well, is still quite weak in most cases, but might have some niche case uses or as a last ditch gamble when you are at the edge of losing.
41 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:(note that: the official FFG errata also makes the TN of this skill equal to the Vigilance of your target)
Yup. I tend to see Rising Blade as the "duelist's kata" and Crossing Blade as the "skirmisher's kata," though they both have uses in either case. Trying to inflict a Critical Strike early in a duel is going to be tough, because you're facing a TN of probably 2 or 3 for lower-level characters, and still need 2 Opportunities. This actually makes Predict in Air Stance pretty useful, even if you're not especially interested in the Strife hit and locking your opponent out of a Stance. Spend an Opportunity to give your subsequent Strike an extra Opportunity. Now you only need 3 or 4 necessary symbols, instead of 4-5, and be sure to spend that Void point!
10 minutes ago, The Grand Falloon said:Yup. I tend to see Rising Blade as the "duelist's kata" and Crossing Blade as the "skirmisher's kata," though they both have uses in either case. Trying to inflict a Critical Strike early in a duel is going to be tough, because you're facing a TN of probably 2 or 3 for lower-level characters, and still need 2 Opportunities. This actually makes Predict in Air Stance pretty useful, even if you're not especially interested in the Strife hit and locking your opponent out of a Stance. Spend an Opportunity to give your subsequent Strike an extra Opportunity. Now you only need 3 or 4 necessary symbols, instead of 4-5, and be sure to spend that Void point!
I've heard many people mention that Predict action should have been a rolled action.
And I do agree I think.
I have not changed it in my houserule as I try to keep the changes I make to a very functional minimum (I found the rising blade fix more important and less potentially game changing), but it is definitely an interesting houserule you got there.
Crossing Blade also has a use in an official Crane-style duel, assuming you can roll big bad numbers enough. There's two ways to win, first blood and judgment. If your opponent becomes Incapacitated and unable to continue, you can appeal to judgment because obviously they are unable to continue, even if you haven't made them bleed. This works best with Fire Stance for extra bonus successes, but you have to be careful not to Compromise yourself and trigger finishing blow, because Strife is resolved before your successes in the order and you could get interrupted. You also have to have a decent Courtesy rank, because you need to hit a TN based on the judge(es) vigilance to appeal.