I started this discussion in the Tantive thread, but since I figure there are some non-epic/huge/Rebel hyped people here I'd shift the question to the rules section.

Card in question: Raymus Antilles

First off, the things I assume to be correct:

• We have 2 abilities, both going onto the queue "after you are destroyed".

Rules ref has this to say:

• Also, with the latest RR the ability queue lost some of it's "precognition". It no longer know's that Old Teroch will be in Range 1 thanks to Ketsu. Or that a Nantex can be given a tractor token before using Ensnare.
• A ship can gain a green token during the End Phase AFTER the remove tokens steps. This token carries over to next turn. (see Tavson Baffle )
• Two abilities with the same timing can be added onto the queue by the controlling player in order of choice.

So... scenario 1.

• Ship gets destroyed. End of the specific initiative step is reached. Ship is now "immediately before" it will be removed.
• Ability one (Focus) goes onto the queue, followed by ability two, the removal timing change.
• At this point the queue is unaware that some future ability will change the timing window of the ship removal, and hence the "immediately before the ship is removed". So the Focus tokens are distributed. (Including to the Ship itself)
• The second ability goes off, and the removal window is postponed until the end of the End Phase.
• Ship is still around, and hence can shoot, using the newly gained focus token.
• End phase rolls around and the ship is finally removed at the end of it.

Scenario 2.

• Ship gets destroyed. End of the specific initiative step is reached. Ship is now "immediately before" it will be removed.
• Removal timing change is added to the queue, followed by the Focus distribution ability.
• The first ability goes off, and the removal window is postponed until the end of the End Phase.
• The Focus distribution fails, because the ship is no longer "immediately before removal".
• Ship is still around, and hence can shoot.
• End phase rolls around.
• Token removal step goes by.
• End of End Phase gets here. At this point we once again reach "immediately before removal", for real this time.
• The focus token ability goes onto the queue.
• Focus tokens are distributed to all friendly ships R0-1. They now start their next turn with Focus tokens.

Scenario 3. (This one is wacky, and I'm certain I'm missing something, but here goes).

• Ship gets destroyed. End of the specific initiative step is reached. Ship is now "immediately before" it will be removed.
• Ability one (Focus) goes onto the queue, followed by ability two, the removal timing change.
• At this point the queue is unaware that some future ability will change the timing window of the ship removal, and hence the "immediately before the ship is removed". So the Focus tokens are distributed. (Including to the Ship itself)
• The second ability goes off, and the removal window is postponed until the end of the End Phase.
• Ship is still around, and hence can shoot, using the newly gained focus token.
• End phase rolls around.
• Token removal step goes by.
• End of End Phase gets here. At this point we once again reach "immediately before removal", for real this time.
• The focus token ability goes onto the queue.
• Focus tokens are distributed to all friendly ships R0-1. They now start their next turn with Focus tokens.

In scenario 1 a ship uses a Focus token itself generated by being destroyed to shoot with.

In Scenario 2 focus tokens are generated, and carried over to the next turn.

In Scenario 3 focus tokens are generated twice. A ship shoots using its own "on death" focus token. And focus tokens are carried over to the next round.

All three seems correct to me, and all 3 does something strange.

I'm so confused right now.... which, if ANY of these are correct?

The destroyed effects only going off when the ship is removed thing confuses the issue a LOT unfortunately. I think that one of your latter two secnarios which has the next effect of the ships starting the following round with an extra token is correct, and I don't think it particularly or materially matters which.

Scenario 1 seems like the most likely scenario to me.

Both abilities should trigger at the same time which would be when the ship is normally removed.

If an ability is added to the queue, it should be resolved before moving on with the game and not postponed to a later phase and, I think the once per opportunity would prevent triggering twice from the After Destroyed trigger.

Though it is definitely a messy issue. Hopefully FFG is better about clarifying epic cards and huge ship cards in second edition than they were in first edition.

The CR-90 wouldn't be removed till the End Phase so the tokens should be distributed then after the normal timing for the removal of round tokens causing them to still be on the receiving ships the next turn. Sadly, iirc, this runs afoul the Unofficial Tournament rulings since the judges involved threw out the Ability Queue being used in the End Phase. Thankfully Huge ships are for casual play only, but it is something to keep in mind if Huge Ships and/or Epic gains a tournament sub format.

As written, and likely very likely as intended, his ability boosts the squad he's with the following turn in a kind of revenge strike buff.

2 hours ago, joeshmoe554 said:

Scenario 1 seems like the most likely scenario to me.

Both abilities should trigger at the same time which would be when the ship is normally removed.

If an ability is added to the queue, it should be resolved before moving on with the game and not postponed to a later phase and, I think the once per opportunity would prevent triggering twice from the After Destroyed trigger.

Though it is definitely a messy issue. Hopefully FFG is better about clarifying epic cards and huge ship cards in second edition than they were in first edition.

Antillies changes when the ship is removed...

"If an effect triggers after a ship is destroyed, the effect resolves immediately before the ship is removed."

18 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Antillies changes when the ship is removed...

"If an effect triggers after a ship is destroyed, the effect resolves immediately before the ship is removed."

He does, but he changes it "After you are destroyed," Which would mean the trigger to change the timing of when the ship is removed is the same as the trigger to gain focus tokens. So the ability to gain focus tokens should be added to the ability queue when the ship would normally be removed, and then due to the second ability, the ship won't be removed until later.

15 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Antillies changes when the ship is removed...

"If an effect triggers after a ship is destroyed, the effect resolves immediately before the ship is removed."

Oh, I agree. But I also can't find a gap in my logic for scenario 1.

The messy bit here is that while the first (focus) effect is trying to resolve, the second ability hasn't happened yet, and hence the removal timing hasn't changed yet, and hence the queue believes it is in fact just before the ship gets removed. So focus happens, and then the removal timing is changed by Antillies.

Both abilities have the same wording and timing. So, for Antillies to be able to change the removal timing, the second ability MUST trigger. But, the first ability should then, logically, also be able to trigger on the initial removal timing.

There is a horrible chicken and egg thing here.

3 hours ago, joeshmoe554 said:

Scenario 1 seems like the most likely scenario to me.

Both abilities should trigger at the same time which would be when the ship is normally removed.

Yeah. There is logic in this.

What's frustrating to me is that this isn't even multi-card interaction. It's one card, all on it's own and I can't figure out what is correct.

Actually, the whole thing is a messy chicken and egg thing.

The ship tries to die, and be removed. So the ability triggers "immediately before it is removed".

But then it is no longer removed.

So the ability can't happen anymore.

So the ship has to die immediately.

So the ability can happen.

So the ship doesn't die.

So the ability can't happen.

So the ship has to die immediately.

....

1 minute ago, Bort said:

What's frustrating to me is that this isn't even multi-card interaction. It's one card, all on it's own and I can't figure out what is correct.

Casual play is casual play. Run it by your opponent and deciding together for now is the best bet till this is clarified. Just take into account that if the tokens are distributed at the end of the initiative step in which raymus is destroyed there is a very good chance that they will have no opportunity to have an effect on the outcome of that engagement phase but if they are applied in the end phase after round tokens are removed they will have use in the next turn. The smaller huge ships engage at I1, Corvettes engage at I0.

Just now, Hiemfire said:

Casual play is casual play. Run it by your opponent and deciding together for now is the best bet till this is clarified. Just take into account that if the tokens are distributed at the end of the initiative step in which raymus is destroyed there is a very good chance that they will have no opportunity to have an effect on the outcome of that engagement phase but if they are applied in the end phase after round tokens are removed they will have use in the next turn. The smaller huge ships engage at I1, Corvettes engage at I0.

The reality is I'm never going to face this. My normal group aren't really hyped about Epic. And my regular solo opponent plays Empire / FO. Doesn't make it less annoying.

Your are assuming Raymus is destroyed by another huge ship. The huge ship he is on can just as easily be destroyed on a Higher Init step by normal ship ordinance. So the focus will have potential effect on any ships still waiting to shoot.

AND... if the focus happens as per scenario 1, the ship Raymus is on (ie, the one being destroyed) actually hangs around now, and it will give a focus to itself which can then be used to shoot.

11 minutes ago, joeshmoe554 said:

He does, but he changes it "After you are destroyed," Which would mean the trigger to change the timing of when the ship is removed is the same as the trigger to gain focus tokens. So the ability to gain focus tokens should be added to the ability queue when the ship would normally be removed, and then due to the second ability, the ship won't be removed until later.

RAI comes down to how much agency FFG wanted the opponent to have over the effect. A kill shot from a low Init (I1 or I2) will effectively turn off Raymus's ability (I1 and I0 rebels that could benefit are rare). With the huge ships engaging at I1 or I0 this is a choice I see many opponents would be happy to make.

4 minutes ago, Bort said:

Your are assuming Raymus is destroyed by another huge ship.

Nope. Any kill shot from an I1 or I2 would do and a single focus token on a CR-90 isn't going to amount to much.

Presumably if he's destroyed before he engages he still gets to engage, because he hasn't been removed yet...

1 minute ago, thespaceinvader said:

Presumably if he's destroyed before he engages he still gets to engage, because he hasn't been removed yet...

Honestly I presume that is the actual and only intent of the second ability. To basically give the ship a final chance to engage. (Which, in itself isn't a bad ability)

So I really actually think the intent was to dish out some tokens on the initiative step that kills it. And then hang around to shoot if it hasn't done that yet.

But... I have long ago learned that what I think/presume is almost always wrong.

I'm willing to bet the person who wrote it either didn't know about that rule or thought it worked differently...

while it isn't crystal clear, because of the possible loop @thespaceinvader describes, it kind of works. if you're not nice you can also make it do too much, as in way too much.

ship is destroyed (when ever), both abilities enter the queue before the ship is removed. doesn't matter which order they resolve. friendly ships at range 0-1 will gain a focus token. the ship will not be removed until the end of the end phase.

this is because the abilities share a timing and that timing is one instance of building the queue. after that the queue resolves.

at the end of the end phase, the ship is removed. you could at this point trigger both abilities again, since the timing of after the ship being destroyed is supposed to be right before it is removed. since that timing window according to the new ability queue rules is an instant and you could enter both abilities in the queue again, you could argue that the ship should stay until the end of the end phase. as in next end of the end phase, since the timing for end of the end phase has just passed. that would make the ship immortal - and it would keep handing out focus tokens to friendly ships at range 0-1 for ever.

i dare say i very much doubt that's the intention, though. you simply remove the ship at the end of the end phase without triggering both abilities again. otherwise you're a complete disgrace of a human being and no one in their right mind should ever play games with you. even triggering just the ability of handing out focus tokens at the end of the end phase is complete bogus if you ask me.

23 minutes ago, meffo said:

ship is destroyed (when ever), both abilities enter the queue before the ship is removed. doesn't matter which order they resolve. friendly ships at range 0-1 will gain a focus token. the ship will not be removed until the end of the end phase.

this is because the abilities share a timing and that timing is one instance of building the queue. after that the queue resolves.

at the end of the end phase, the ship is removed. you could at this point trigger both abilities again, since the timing of after the ship being destroyed is supposed to be right before it is removed.

Yup. This is scenario 3 as I described it in my original post. Double focus distribution.