Hello!

Newbie HH player needs help:

1- When do you check the staking Limits, during the Change of Initiative phase (w/ or w/out a Coexistence Battle)

or

after a Coexistence Battle?

2-When an Unsupported/lone Hero Retreats (firstly, can this even be possible?), does he get a Rout marker?

3-When does Fulgrim activate his special Ability (not the general Hero Cards ability), before or after cards are drawn? (I ask because if Fulgrim turns units traitor, the Traitor player - depending on when his ability activates -, could get more cards at the beginning of battle)

Thanks!

L

1) The two are independent. During a change of initiative (page 15), first if any coexistence battles are up they are duked out, then stacking limits are enforced (whether there have been coexistence battles or not).

2) A player can retreat whenever he just became the active player, after the first iteration, instead of playing combat cards (page 26). This is independent of how many and what types of units or heroes he still has, so he can retreat with just a hero. And yes, this will add a routed activation marker just like retreating with units does, there's no difference between retreating just heroes and retreating both units and heroes with this one.

3) There's been some debate concerning timing of hero abilities. Personally, I think it makes sense to handle them in a consistent way, because many of them can influence how many combat cards will be drawn - and the only really consistent way (considering the Khan acts like a flying unit when the imperial player attacks, and flying units act before combat cards are drawn) is to make this happen before the combat. So personally, I'm convinced that the hero abilities are meant to happen before that, and thus Fulgrim can make the traitor get more combat cards if imperial units turn to chaos.

haslo said:

Now that I've reread the rulebook I think the rules for Hero Abilites are generally spelled out under the Engaging Units section (pg.25, first paragraph under the header). Looks to me that once a Hero is engaged , his abilites "kick in" (become active).

L

haslo said:

All right; if this is true, then why have them set up "in numerical priority" ( 1. Fight Coexistence Battles, 2. Check for Staking Limits)? Why not bulleted, like the Action Step options? Seems to me that the rules state that if #1 doesn't apply, then #2 (which seems to be a consequence of #1 - check it's text!), doesn't, either (!)

Your'e probably right but IMHO the rulebook is poorly written in this regard.

L

LETE said:

It doesn't seem to be implied as a consequence to me. "All coexistence battles" can well stand for "all zero of them".

The reason why they're in a numerical sequence is because their order is important, stacking limits are only enforced after any coexistence battles are fought, so no coexistence battle's odds are influenced by stacking limits. The numerical list is used in all other instances of such ordered sequences as well, as far as I can tell. The steps per round on page 14, the various steps during setup on page 13, the draw orders phase on page 16, etc. etc.

A bulleted list on the other hand is used in the rulebook to denote alternatives, like in the action step you pointed out: The player can do either. When it comes to the two steps of the change initiative step, that's not the case: First the first step is carried out, then the second step is carried out. And nowhere in the second step is it implied that the first step had to include more than zero instances in "all coexistence battles".

So I'd argue that not only are they sequential and not consequential, but also that a numerical list is the only reasonable way in the context of the rest of the rules to denote this.

LETE said:

Hm, it doesn't seem that clear to me... although I wholeheartedly agree with you that it makes sense to use their abilities right when they're denoted as being engaged in the battle, the text doesn't mention this. On page 25, it always talks about "units and heroes", never about heroes alone. Page 26 only explicitly talks about drawing hero cards - which is a common hero special ability, as page 32 makes clear.

Even then, their unique special abilities would have to trigger before the common special ability in order to influence the battle concerning how many combat cards are drawn. I already mentioned that one of these unique special abilities (Khan's) has to trigger earlier or it doesn't really make any sense at all, so it makes sense that the others do as well, but the rulebook just doesn't state this.

haslo said:

Page 15, The Change of Initiative Step:

"2. Stacking limits: After all coexistence battles have been resolved..."

This is the part that had me certain that Stacking Limits were only checked after coexistence battles.

Page 25, Engaging Units:

" (...) The advantage of engaging a particular unit or Hero is that doing so brings its capabilities to bear."

This is the section I was referring to.

HtH

L