6 minutes ago, C3POFETT said:

Even though you knew Anakin was going to become Vader, Lucas still made you feel like "maybe he will change his mind" I felt the entire prequel saga could should have been told by just expanding this movie.

Fixed that for you.

6 minutes ago, C3POFETT said:

The unexpected hit of the late seventies.

Yes. While pregnant with my brother, my mother watched ANH seven times just in the summer of 1979, long after the initial hype had passed. Course she was hugely pregnant in the heat of summer, and theaters were one of the only spaces that had air conditioning back then...

6 minutes ago, C3POFETT said:

ESB was and still is the Crown Jewel of the franchise.

It's amazing how good the tauntauns made that movie, despite the short time they were onscreen.

6 minutes ago, C3POFETT said:

TFA was a call back to what made the OT great. The problem was they forgot to let us get to know the characters and develop them. Same story different lead characters.

I didn't see it as calling back to developing characters through action, having strong subtextual themes, keeping the universe looking lived-in (for example, Finn's borrowed blaster was jarringly clean and fake looking), having the universe be different but familiar (I instinctively know astronomy doesn't work like that, whereas TIE Fighters sound like slightly modified automobiles, so my gut accepts them being loud in space), or anything else that made the OT (and especially ANH) great.

It also forgot to synthesize vast swathes of film history and mythology into something that subconsciously resonates with all of us.

Course, so did the prequels. A lot of the issue is that all artistic subtlety was lost. I didn't know what a vader was but man, it sounded BAD. But straight up naming the characters maul, plague, and insidious? And giving the badguy the face of a cartoon devil? That's not exactly deep. Now, giving Yoda the face of Albert Einstein, which none of us consciously noticed at the time, that was good art.

6 minutes ago, C3POFETT said:

I don't get all the fuss over not having Han, Luke and Leia in the sequels. They weren't in the prequels (except for the Luke and Leia baby scene) and no one complained. It is a different era and a new-ish story. (bit of a stretch)

Cause I've been waiting decades for a trilogy about what these characters got up to in their 50's or 60's. Like what Lucas said he was interested in doing, in a public interview, back in the day.

13 minutes ago, LunarSol said:

TLJ has largely driven me to hate Star Wars, though mostly because I used to love the fans and now I just.... don't love the fans.

Honestly, at this point it might just be movies as an entire culture. The Marvel comments that kick off this thread are equally miserable. I haven't had an enjoyable movie discussion since.... IDK... maybe Guardians of the Galaxy vol 1? The amount of creative control fans seem to be trying to claim over this stuff these days is ridiculous.

I'm just glad there ARE fans. Back in like 93, if I tried to talk about Star Wars, everyone made jokes about William Shatner.

1 hour ago, KalEl814 said:

It's not a dumpster fire lol.

Some people haven't seen enough movies to know a real dumpster fire of a film when they see one. Such films shall remain nameless. Jurassic Park III.

1 hour ago, EchoZero said:

Let me assure you, nothing will ever be good enough. Star Wars fans are the worst. Always something new to complain about.

Are Star Wars fans really the worse? That is what I keep asking myself and I am not really sure on that answer. The problem for me is TLJ discussion has been somewhat hijacked by certain people pushing a certain.............agenda. You do not really see it here, but a quick YouTube search a few videos and I end up needing a shower. Cut that out and I can see a pretty good discussion on a movie that does some questionable choices (at best) and if there is really is vision for Star Wars at all (besides The Search of more Money).

Also the major standard for me when it comes to all Star Wars movies will always be comparing it to Attack of the Clone. At worse I view TLJ as a mediocre movie that wasted all their hype and goodwill for a few twist when they could of just taken the easy options. The nicest thing I can say about AotC is that it will make a great episode of Mystery Science Theater 3000 one day.

3 minutes ago, LunarSol said:

TLJ has largely driven me to hate Star Wars, though mostly because I used to love the fans and now I just.... don't love the fans.

Honestly, at this point it might just be movies as an entire culture. The Marvel comments that kick off this thread are equally miserable.

As a former fan of Game of Thrones I can say the fandom does not get better with other franchise as well. At least with Star Wars they really have such a wide range of options that you can really avoid the worse conversations and have to go looking for trouble. Really I can't really think of a better time to be a Star Wars fan then right now. Even Legends fans can now say that all their favorite material is safe from both Lucas (who I would say had a pretty mixed relationship with the fans at best) and the mouse.

Just now, TauntaunScout said:

Some people haven't seen enough movies to know a real dumpster fire of a film when they see one. Such films shall remain nameless. Jurassic Park III.

No but see I didn't like it. Ergo dumpster fire. QED.

You could multiply the power of both Death Stars and Starkiller base together and they still would pale in comparison to the power of headcanon.

8 minutes ago, TauntaunScout said:

I'm just glad there ARE fans. Back in like 93, if I tried to talk about Star Wars, everyone made jokes about William Shatner.

No, these days the power of fan pack culture is killing creative control of just about everything. Rotten tomatoes and the steps they have to take as an example, or any of the multitudes of sjw issues that go viral that can't just let actors do their job.....

You can see it clearly in ep 7-8, someone decided to make the current trilogy a reboot, but then they got scared and tried to retool it into a continuation of the story.

I don't think there's any reason to think it was a reboot. It was definitely reverse engineered but at no point does it appear anyone was considering recasting Luke Skywalker.

11 minutes ago, RyantheFett said:

Really I can't really think of a better time to be a Star Wars fan then right now.

As much as I'll argue with folks and even taunt disgruntled fans, this is absolutely true.

It's a great time to be a Star Wars fan.

The content is great, but the social element has gotten miserable for me. You don't talk about religion and politics in polite conversation and these days I feel like adding Star Wars to the list.

21 minutes ago, EchoZero said:

As much as I'll argue with folks and even taunt disgruntled fans, this is absolutely true.

It's a great time to be a Star Wars fan.

And specifically, a SW tabletop gamer.

37 minutes ago, KalEl814 said:

No but see I didn't like it. Ergo dumpster fire. QED.

You could multiply the power of both Death Stars and Starkiller base together and they still would pale in comparison to the power of headcanon.

I think it goes a lot deeper then the “I didn’t like it -> it’s a dumpster fire”.

I’ve done this argument before and it’s not worth my time to explain myself.

Do some research on the forums. You can find my posts and understand my perspective.

No need to get sensitive and aggressive bud.

2 minutes ago, Ralgon said:

You can see it clearly in ep 7-8, someone decided to make the current trilogy a reboot, but then they got scared and tried to retool it into a continuation of the story.

I still have a bit of hope that this was all part of the mouse's plan to just do a soft reboot of the franchise. It would work so well in so many different ways......................... that is why i don't think they will do it.

First kill off most of the old cast/factions to set up the new cast/factions in the exact same spot at the end of RoTJ and then start pulling everything from the decades of Legends materiel for years to come. Thawn comes back to take over the fractured First Order, Rey rebuilds the Jedi Order with all the new rules, non stop war with dozen of warlords, Black Squadron video games/books instead of Rouge, force ghost Luke instead of Obi-Wan, and major threats from the outer rim that causes the First Order/ New New Republic to team.

Even 9 feels like they just are jumping straight into the Dark Empire series with the return of papa Palp and his love of super weapons. Something they may have waited on if 8 would have had divided the fandom.

It would explain why the Civil War only lasted 1 year after Endor, why Mon Mothma demilitarized so much, why Ahsoka, Sabine, and Thawn were all sidelined, why every ship/character was replaced with a copy, and the name/ending of The Rise of Skywalker. A move that would explain a lot of weird choices, let Disney make a lot of money, and set up a crap ton of new Star Wars properties.

7 minutes ago, LunarSol said:

The content is great, but the social element has gotten miserable for me. You don't talk about religion and politics in polite conversation and these days I feel like adding Star Wars to the list.

I guess for me the social element was always miserable.

Like, pre-disney, any time you talked about the EU it was either Bane, Revan, Katarn, Thrawn, and eventually the Vong. And somehow the conversation always turned into some level of cringeworthy fanservice of one of these characters.

With the new content, it's a toss up when someone says they don't like the new films.

I try to be accommodating if they're reasonable about it and if we can discuss stuff like civil people. I'm okay to leave well enough alone. That said, I will be outright dismissive of people who stamp an opinionated label on any of the movies because of "sjws" or "ruined childhoods"

It's the same load of garbage. Fans are always going to carry the possibility of having absurd or unjustified concrete opinions that make talking about it a pain.

Just do what I do. Talk about it, and if you disagree with someone who doesn't want to exchange ideas, accept that it can't be changed, and move on.

8 minutes ago, TauntaunScout said:

And specifically, a SW tabletop gamer.

My goodness, YES.

Armada, which scratches my itch to command a fleet. Legion which scratches my itch to command a battlefield, and X-wing to keep my house warm during the cold cold winters. lol

3 minutes ago, EchoZero said:

Just do what I do. Talk about it, and if you disagree with someone who doesn't want to exchange ideas, accept that it can't be changed, and move on.

That's fine and all, but the moment I try to enjoy anything someone comes rushing in to tell me how wrong I am and how terrible things are. So much of my love of Star Wars is built on sharing the joy of it with friends. Having a toy lightsaber or badge or something on hand used to connect me to people. These days it just leads to getting accosted about intolerant nonsense. Even on the tabletop, the number of times I've played and just had to say "can we not talk about Star Wars?" in our game of Star Wars is... distressing, though even then those conversations usually come from people outside the game lured in by seeing people enjoying something related to Star Wars.

If it was a matter of just agreeing to disagree that would be fine. Subjective opinions differ and that is fine. The problem is that the vast majority of people who dislike TLJ are arguing that it is objectively bad. That is why the people who like it get "sensitive and aggressive" or put more accurately "defensive". See there can be objective problems with a movie. Boom mikes unintentionally entering the frame, unintentional continuity errors, editing that unintentionally cuts off dialogue, music that unintentionally drowns out dialogue, etc. Everything else is subjective. Notice in my examples I said unintentional. That is because even these supposedly objective problems could be intentionally used by a filmmaker for humor, building tension, creating a surreal atmosphere etc. Movie critics would love you to think that their job is based on hard facts but in reality they are just expressing their own subjective opinion about how well a movie holds up to the average subjective opinions of moviegoers in general.

So when someone says "...when someone brings up how much of a dumpster fire the movie was." that is being stated as an objective fact when it is really just a subjective opinion.

@LunarSol You are right. I’ve been comparing it to religious orthodoxy for awhile now. “You either agree with me, or you’re a hopelessly flawed semi-human.”

No one really cares which say, Aliens movies, or what defunct gamer-games I like and dislike. But with Star Wars it’s different.

@devin.pike.1989 I just want people to be able to explain why a movie did or didn’t work for them, based on accurate information. I have heard a lot of factually inaccurate movie critiques.

18 hours ago, JediPartisan said:

Hyperspace ramming has the most consequences. In 5, 000 years that hyperspace was supposed to have existed no one being has ever thought of doing that?

We don’t have a complete history of military tactics in the Star Wars universe, so we can’t say for sure. I think the most likely explanation is that people HAD thought of such tactics, and concluded that such tactics aren’t sustainable. Which, if you consider what happened in the movie makes sense. The maneuver completely destroyed the Raddus, while only damaging the Supremacy. Kylo, Rey, Finn, Rose, BB-8, DJ and Phasma all survived, and the First Order was still able to marshall enough ground forces to assault Crait. The sacrifice play acted primarily as a diversion, not as a destructive military tactic.

49 minutes ago, LunarSol said:

That's fine and all, but the moment I try to enjoy anything someone comes rushing in to tell me how wrong I am and how terrible things are. So much of my love of Star Wars is built on sharing the joy of it with friends. Having a toy lightsaber or badge or something on hand used to connect me to people. These days it just leads to getting accosted about intolerant nonsense. Even on the tabletop, the number of times I've played and just had to say "can we not talk about Star Wars?" in our game of Star Wars is... distressing, though even then those conversations usually come from people outside the game lured in by seeing people enjoying something related to Star Wars.

It's unfortunate, but in the rare circumstances someone can't behave with civility mock them relentlessly. Straight up, I'm cool with listening but if they want to be king rat with their opinion I will cover the whole room in **** before I have to just sit there and eat theirs.

Something something "speak softly but carry a big stick" something something.

32 minutes ago, devin.pike.1989 said:

If it was a matter of just agreeing to disagree that would be fine. Subjective opinions differ and that is fine. The problem is that the vast majority of people who dislike TLJ are arguing that it is objectively bad. That is why the people who like it get "sensitive and aggressive" or put more accurately "defensive". See there can be objective problems with a movie. Boom mikes unintentionally entering the frame, unintentional continuity errors, editing that unintentionally cuts off dialogue, music that unintentionally drowns out dialogue, etc. Everything else is subjective. Notice in my examples I said unintentional. That is because even these supposedly objective problems could be intentionally used by a filmmaker for humor, building tension, creating a surreal atmosphere etc. Movie critics would love you to think that their job is based on hard facts but in reality they are just expressing their own subjective opinion about how well a movie holds up to the average subjective opinions of moviegoers in general.

So when someone says "...when someone brings up how much of a dumpster fire the movie was." that is being stated as an objective fact when it is really just a subjective opinion.

YES

29 minutes ago, TauntaunScout said:

@LunarSol You are right. I’ve been comparing it to religious orthodoxy for awhile now. “You either agree with me, or you’re a hopelessly flawed semi-human.”

No one really cares which say, Aliens movies, or what defunct gamer-games I like and dislike. But with Star Wars it’s different.

Also yes

16 minutes ago, TauntaunScout said:

@devin.pike.1989 I just want people to be able to explain why a movie did or didn’t work for them, based on accurate information. I have heard a lot of factually inaccurate movie critiques.

YES

Just now, GooeyChewie said:

Which, if you consider what happened in the movie makes sense. The maneuver completely destroyed the Raddus, while only damaging the Supremacy.

We also don't understand the fallout.... It's reasonable to assume giant hunks of molten ship were hurled aimlessly into hyperspace.... Who knows what collateral damage a move like this would cause.

Well there's a bigger issue that nothing can ever undo. A lot of people waited decades for a new movie about Mark & Carrie as Luke & Leia, and woke up one day to find out that was cancelled, forever. The reasons given ranging from ageism to apparent egotistical capriciousness. "We wanted to do something new" isn't really a reason because making a new movie about Luke & Leia wouldn't have stopped Disney from ALSO making a million completely unrelated SW movies.

Also, if we old fans didn't like the old characters, no one ever would have had the chance to do anything new. The other side of that religious orthodoxy coin is, the people who make a false distinction between "fan" and "customer". It's like I'm being told the right way to be a good customer, to a store that won't stock the products I want.

Having had the bottom drop out of a lot of my favorite franchises (I think only Mad Max and Evil Dead are still standing...) has driven me ever further into my other youthful interests of knights and dinosaurs. Which no IP holder can hijack. There's something really refreshing about having at least SOME of my hobby time spent on subjects pertaining to reality.

😇

Just now, TauntaunScout said:

Well there's a bigger issue that nothing can ever undo. A lot of people waited decades for a new movie about Mark & Carrie as Luke & Leia, and woke up one day to find out that was cancelled, forever. The reasons given ranging from ageism to egotistical capriciousness. "We wanted to do something new" isn't really a reason because making a new movie about Luke & Leia wouldn't have stopped Disney from ALSO making a million completely unrelated SW movies.

I can understand this. I can even relate to it. At the same time, I relate to the new movies in a way I never did with the OT or PT.

Seeing Luke, who was a hero and legend at his prime, reacting to tragedy like many people actually do, hit me at home. That get's me where I live. Like, yeah, I'd have loved to see the retirement home version of Luke and the gang run about the galaxy for one last adventure, but I respect the series so much more for humanizing the characters. Everyone gets old. Not everyone gets a happy ending. Everyone dies. It's not about lineage or heritage but about who you choose to be.

one of my biggest issues with Luke in the OT was how detached he seemed when people he loved and cared about die. Aunt and uncle lying dead burned to a crisp and it was a short nod and off to join the rebellion. I get the motivation it inspired, and even if it was anger he showed I'd have related, but he didn't...I just think I'd be a little more emotional.... Then his best friend gets vaporized, and we never see the pain or regret. Really the only time Luke seems to show any sort of emotion concerning his friends in in empire and the last bit of return when he finally snaps and almost outright murders Vader

1 hour ago, devin.pike.1989 said:

If it was a matter of just agreeing to disagree that would be fine. Subjective opinions differ and that is fine. The problem is that the vast majority of people who dislike TLJ are arguing that it is objectively bad. That is why the people who like it get "sensitive and aggressive" or put more accurately "defensive". See there can be objective problems with a movie. Boom mikes unintentionally entering the frame, unintentional continuity errors, editing that unintentionally cuts off dialogue, music that unintentionally drowns out dialogue, etc. Everything else is subjective. Notice in my examples I said unintentional. That is because even these supposedly objective problems could be intentionally used by a filmmaker for humor, building tension, creating a surreal atmosphere etc. Movie critics would love you to think that their job is based on hard facts but in reality they are just expressing their own subjective opinion about how well a movie holds up to the average subjective opinions of moviegoers in general.

So when someone says "...when someone brings up how much of a dumpster fire the movie was." that is being stated as an objective fact when it is really just a subjective opinion.

I think the biggest problem that people are having is their inability to differentiate between subjective and objective statements.

Let's say I have a red bucket and say that the bucket is red. Someone else comes a long and says that it's orange. The bucket is objectively red and all because this person thinks it's orange doesn't make it orange.

The same goes for TLJ. When I say the movie lacks character development which makes the movie predictable and is poorly choreographed (hence huge mistakes during battle scenes). These are objective statements (Watch a breakdown of the throne room scene. It's loaded with mistakes, yet people still defend the scene).

Now when I say TLJ is a dumpster fire. That's my opinion of the movie. I used the objective information in the movie to form an opinion.

There is nothing wrong with you liking a movie that I think is a dumpster fire. Maybe you enjoy the politics injected into most of the scenes. Maybe you enjoy the lack luster characters... There are plenty of bad movies that I enjoy too!