Hello all. The thing I've noticed about the various Lightsaber Form specializations is almost all of them allow for deriving lightsaber checks with a different characteristic other than the normal Brawn based checks, and then providing talents to either boost those checks or provide other options based on the same characteristic. However, as far as I can tell there doesn't seem to be any specializations that provide benefits to characters that have a high brawn characteristic and thus use that as their main check. So far the only one I've found that benefits the Brawn characteristic is Shien Expert, which has a whopping 1 talent (Falling Avalanche) that actually benefits a Brawn focused lightsaber fighter. The rest, even the Juyo Berserker tree oddly enough, have nothing that I've found are good for this. This is especially odd with Shien and Juyo, since they are supposed to be very power based lightsaber styles.

Any recommendations for a Brawny lightsaber duelist?

Warrior Shii Cho Knight uses Brawn for Lightsaber.

Honestly, there are enough mechanical benefits from having a high Brawn as is (namely, soak). Making more Brawn-specific lightsaber talents just doesn't really feel necessary to me. But that being said, I do have some ideas that might work.

1. Drive Back: When making a Lightsaber (Brawn) check, may spend 1 Destiny Point to perform the Drive Back maneuver as an incidental to move both the character and one silhouette 1 target within engaged range up to one range band. 15 XP

Think of this like the scene at the end of Return of the Jedi, where Luke is driving Vader back toward the walkway before ultimately cutting off Vader's arm. Forcing a target to move with you has some good battlefield control options, and I can think of several situations in my campaigns where a talent like this would have been extremely helpful. You could drive an enemy away from an injured or otherwise squishy ally, move a duel to a location better suited for your character, or any number of other creative uses.

2. Force Kick: Spend a triumph or two advantage on a missed Lightsaber (Brawn) check to immediately move one silhouette 1 target within engaged range up to one range band. 20 XP.

Kick your enemies off of platforms! Kick your enemies to spread out overwhelming numbers! Kick your enemies into convenient, nearby lava pits! We've seen multiple examples in Star Wars of characters kicking each other vast distances. Dooku kicking Anakin onboard the Invisible Hand, Anakin kicking Obi-Wan early on in their fight on Mustafar, Luke kicking Vader over the staircase in the Emperor's throne room, ect. Mechanically, this is basically a more limited version of Force Assault. It's nowhere near as powerful as actually performing the Move power as a maneuver, hence the lower advantage and experience cost, but it is useful battlefield control, and doesn't cost a maneuver to trigger it.

3. Shockwave: Perform the Shockwave maneuver; suffer 1 strain to make the next Lightsaber (Brawn) check this turn gain the Blast item quality equal to Force rating during check. 20 XP.

This one is pretty straightforward. Your strikes land with such force that they injure everyone within close range. Not really something we see in the movies, but hey, it's a neat ability.

I'd probably be fine swapping the Grit on the Shii-Cho tree with Drive Back, and the Natural Blademaster with Force Kick. This gives Shii-Cho more of what it's good at (Battlefield control, dealing with more than one single enemy). As for Shockwave, I'd probably toss that in place of the 20 XP Intimidating on the Juyo Berserker tree. Now, I don't actually plan on using any of these at my table (as I go entirely by the book at my table), but I don't see any reason these would be horribly broken in practice.

7 minutes ago, salamar_dree said:

Warrior Shii Cho Knight uses Brawn for Lightsaber.

Nothing in Shii-Cho Knight specifies that it requires Brawn for the Lightsaber checks. If you took, for example, Ataru Technique, you could still use everything out of the Shii-Cho tree using your Agility rather than your Brawn. What the OP is looking for is talents that specify Lightsaber (Brawn) checks.

56 minutes ago, Underachiever599 said:

Nothing in Shii-Cho Knight specifies that it requires Brawn for the Lightsaber checks. If you took, for example, Ataru Technique, you could still use everything out of the Shii-Cho tree using your Agility rather than your Brawn. What the OP is looking for is talents that specify Lightsaber (Brawn) checks.

that is because lightsaber is brawn based. the others require the form talent to use. there is no form talent to key off of for Juyo berserker or Shi Cho.

While not based around specific Forms, there's also the Arbiter (Disciples of Harmony), Sentry (Endless Vigil), and Armourer (Keeping the Peace) which all have Lightsaber keyed off of Brawn (which is the default for the skill as Daeglan noted).

I don't think there really needs to be a plethora of additional talents that focus around enhancing Brawn-based Lightsaber combat checks. While it's not in Shii-Cho Knight, there is Falling Avalanche (f0und in Shien Expert and Armourer) that lets you suffer a couple strain to add your Brawn to the damage of one hit of a successful Lightsaber attack.

Almost all of what Underacheiver599 suggested are things that can be done through the use of narrative descriptions and Triumphs. Drive Back is just spending a Triumph to force the target of your attack to disengage from you, which is fairly handy in a duel as you now force your opponent to come to you. Same could be done with Force Kick, with the PC spending their Triumph on a failed combat check to push the target back/away.

Shockwave OTOH is just simply problematic, and really fits more as an application of Move or as something the Niman Disciple (who is all about adding telekinesis to their lightsaber attacks) would have. Personally, I'd put it as a narrative description of the Move power, with the "blast" pushing the foes back as they take damage, especially as combat in this game is not grid-based so it's quite easy to narratively describe your saber-monkey as getting themselves into the midst of a minion group and then just blasting them with the Force via a shockwave effect, whether it be by slamming your hand on the ground or some other method.

23 hours ago, Underachiever599 said:

What the OP is looking for is talents that specify Lightsaber (Brawn) checks.

Or just benefit a purely Brawn focused Lightsaber character. With the exception of Sorsesu Defender, which has 1 and isn't an offensive form to begin with, and Shii-Cho Knight, which has no talent for altering Lightsaber checks to a different characteristic, all lightsaber form specializations have at least 2 talents that run off the characteristic that they allow the player to use for Lightsaber checks. The talents that let the player use different characteristics for a Lightsaber check allow allow the player to use that same characteristic for any talents that require a simple Lightsaber check, making those a nonfactor. Aside from Falling Avalance there isn't any talents I've located specifically for a Brawn Lightsaber based character.

There are not any because lightsaber is brawn based unless you have a talent that allows use of another characteristic

The OP is correct in that there aren't, AFAIK, any talents that require specifically a Lightsaber (Brawn) check, probably because that would effectively shut them out from lightsaber wielders that use another characteristic. There are, however, a few that require just a Lightsaber check, which per default is Brawn (as others have pointed out). Keying a talent to specifically Lightsaber (Brawn) would only result in hammering home that this is unavailable for Shien/Ataru/Niman/etc fighters, which is perhaps being needlessly inflexible.

Armorer is probably the most Brawn-based lightsaber spec, as in even Sii-cho can be used if you've keyed Lightsaber to another characteristic, while Armorer, apart from Falling Avalanche, is able to use soak (which is brawn-based) to counter Lightsabers in two ways; by reducing crits via Supreme Armor Master and by straight out soaking by negating a lightsaber's Breach by granting their armor Cortosis through Reinforce Item. Granted, the latter two aren't so much for actually using a lightsaber, they just happen to be extremely useful against lightsabers.

As long as you have the talent, you can use whatever Characteristic you like. You are never required to use a certain Characteristic unless you are using a talent that states that it uses Lightsaber (Agility) or something.

15 hours ago, penpenpen said:

The OP is correct in that there aren't, AFAIK, any talents that require specifically a Lightsaber (Brawn) check, probably because that would effectively shut them out from lightsaber wielders that use another characteristic. There are, however, a few that require just a Lightsaber check, which per default is Brawn (as others have pointed out). Keying a talent to specifically Lightsaber (Brawn) would only result in hammering home that this is unavailable for Shien/Ataru/Niman/etc fighters, which is perhaps being needlessly inflexible.

Wouldn't that be the case for any Lightsaber talent that requires a Lightsaber (insert characteristic here) check though? Unless you happened to be willing to jump into every Lightsaber specialization tree the player will end up having to pick and choose what the player wants available to them. However, I'm not sure there's anything technically stopping a player from acquiring a Lightsaber (characteristic) talent and using it with that particular Lightsaber (characteristic) in spite of not having the "can use this characteristic for Lightsaber checks" talents anyway. Aside from being unable to reach said talents without having acquired them.

It's flexibility that is in fact my issue here. It just doesn't seem like there's anything in particular to motivate a player to use Brawn as their Lightsaber checks when all the other characteristics seem to have their own forms with talents specifically for them. In addition to the number of nifty talents in the tree that are just generally useful and chances are have other talents the characteristic involved is used for as opposed to Brawn's big fat ol nothing.

1 hour ago, immortalfrieza said:

Wouldn't that be the case for any Lightsaber talent that requires a Lightsaber (insert characteristic here) check though? Unless you happened to be willing to jump into every Lightsaber specialization tree the player will end up having to pick and choose what the player wants available to them. However, I'm not sure there's anything technically stopping a player from acquiring a Lightsaber (characteristic) talent and using it with that particular Lightsaber (characteristic) in spite of not having the "can use this characteristic for Lightsaber checks" talents anyway. Aside from being unable to reach said talents without having acquired them.

It's flexibility that is in fact my issue here. It just doesn't seem like there's anything in particular to motivate a player to use Brawn as their Lightsaber checks when all the other characteristics seem to have their own forms with talents specifically for them. In addition to the number of nifty talents in the tree that are just generally useful and chances are have other talents the characteristic involved is used for as opposed to Brawn's big fat ol nothing.

well given that all characters use brawn till they acquire a form talent all characters can use lightsaber brawn. So I am not sure what would be accomplished. as all characters can use lightsaber brawn. all the form talents do is allow a character to use a different stat other than brawn, So making some talents require using brawn doesnt really accomplish anything.

5 hours ago, Daeglan said:

well given that all characters use brawn till they acquire a form talent all characters can use lightsaber brawn. So I am not sure what would be accomplished. as all characters can use lightsaber brawn. all the form talents do is allow a character to use a different stat other than brawn, So making some talents require using brawn doesnt really accomplish anything.

I think the difference it makes is that it actively encourages using a Brawn-centric character for those talents.

The problem here is, there's nothing that encourages a Brawn-based character, outside of Falling Avalanche and the base benefit gained from having a higher soak/encumbrance. Every other characteristic has a few talents keyed to them that can only be used with that characteristic, thus encouraging certain build types focused on making the best use of these talents. Brawn doesn't have that. Sure, everyone defaults to Brawn when they don't have any of the other techniques, but all the talents available to Shii-Cho or Juyo are just as applicable to someone using Agility, Intellect, Cunning, Willpower, or Presence. The same is not true the other way around. Not every talent available in Ataru Striker benefits a Brawn build, as Saber Swarm and Hawkbat Swoop require Agility. Not every talent in Niman Disciple benefits a Brawn build, as Force Assault and Draw Closer require Willpower. Not every talent in Soresu Defender benefits a Brawn build, as you need Intellect for Defensive Circle and Strategic Form. Need I go on?

Falling Avalanche is the only talent that specifically keys off of only Brawn when it comes to the lightsaber forms, and it doesn't even crop up in the two lightsaber form trees that can only utilize Brawn. Every other form has at least two talents that key only off of the characteristic tied to the form. Nothing found in Shii-Cho Knight or Juyo Berserker can't be used by someone utilizing Ataru Technique, Niman Technique, ect. You can use Sarlaac Sweep with Willpower, for example, as long as you have Niman Technique. But you can't use Draw Closer with Brawn. Mechanically speaking, there's little encouragement to go for a straight Brawn build when making a lightsaber character, when all it does is lock you out of many options, without providing any alternative exclusive options. No other characteristic has this problem, as they all have abundant support within their individual form trees.

Because each other lightsaber form has special abilities linked to that form's characteristic, I think that Shii-cho and Juyo should have some Brawn-based talents. Falling Avalanche only sort of counts because it doesn't require a Brawn-based check, only additional damage equal to Brawn. I think that care should be taken to avoid having too many ones that are dependent on Brawn (because you do have 2 trees for it), but since other lightsaber trees tend to have two or three rather unique talents, why deny that to characters that use Brawn? It seems to be penalizing them for choosing to stick with the base stat, and since the "technique" talents are so low down the tree, it doesn't make a difference XP wise to add a couple talents farther up the tree because they'll have to work their way to them anyway.

The Brawn fighters aren't penalized for sticking with the base stat; they don't have to spend XP on a talent just to get their combat skill linked to their high characteristic. And Brawn is also the most useful combat characteristic for a melee fighter. If anything, the others are penalized.

1 hour ago, Stan Fresh said:

The Brawn fighters aren't penalized for sticking with the base stat; they don't have to spend XP on a talent just to get their combat skill linked to their high characteristic. And Brawn is also the most useful combat characteristic for a melee fighter. If anything, the others are penalized.

I can see your point, but the penalty lasts (if it's your first spec [which would make sense]) for about one session (if the player tries) because if you spend 90-100 XP on characteristics, that should leave you a little extra that you can put into the talent tree and then after one session, you'll probably have the 10 XP required to buy the "technique" talent.

However, I am talking about lightsaber form trees, so those concerns are largely irrelevant. They get a small bonus for the first couple sessions, but then they don't get any fun lightsaber talents further down the tree.

The XP penalty doesn't disappear once you pay it, it's forever. And you can't look at the form trees in isolation. Leaving out huge chunks of the available options can make anything look skewed.

23 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

The XP penalty doesn't disappear once you pay it, it's forever. And you can't look at the form trees in isolation. Leaving out huge chunks of the available options can make anything look skewed.

You gain a benefit from purchasing the talent. If it wasn't worth it to purchase the talent, why do so? I'm not sure if you are talking about leaving out the other specs or if you are talking about individual talents on the lightsaber form trees, but I don't think that it is relevant.

However, upon further study, I see that although Juyo doesn't have what would generally be considered the special lightsaber moves, its Juyo Savagery and Vaapad Control talents could be considered to be sufficient substitutes. I still think that Shii-Cho Knight could still benefit from one more unique ability to bring it on par with the other forms. It has Sum Djem, but that is available elsewhere.

2 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

You gain a benefit from purchasing the talent. If it wasn't worth it to purchase the talent, why do so?

The benefit is catching up to the people who are already there, by virtue of using Brawn. And you're not getting that XP back, that's why the XP penalty for non-Brawn builds is permanent. You pay just to do the thing the other PC is already doing well.

50 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

The benefit is catching up to the people who are already there, by virtue of using Brawn. And you're not getting that XP back, that's why the XP penalty for non-Brawn builds is permanent. You pay just to do the thing the other PC is already doing well.

If you voluntarily start with a Characteristic build that doesn't have a high Brawn, that's your choice, knowing full well that it will handicap you if you intend to be good at lightsaber (without picking a saber form as your starting spec). That is irrelevant. It is no reason why a dedicated lightsaber form tree shouldn't have special abilities.

Often times, you are picking a form whose Characteristic goes along with what you want your focus to be, so one could argue (and not wrongly) that you gain a significant advantage for being able to choose what Characteristic to use. I don't believe that Brawn lightsaber wielders should be penalized for not picking a lightsaber form spec that doesn't change the characteristic. Since the special abilities only appear in lightsaber form specs, it makes no sense to penalize someone wanting a specific form by reducing the number of special abilities they can get. If you wanted to argue that Shii-Cho, as a form, doesn't warrant extra abilities, then you have a case, but so far all of the arguments you have given are irrelevant or incorrect.

1 hour ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

so far all of the arguments you have given are irrelevant or incorrect.

Sure, buddy.

7 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

The Brawn fighters aren't penalized for sticking with the base stat; they don't have to spend XP on a talent just to get their combat skill linked to their high characteristic. And Brawn is also the most useful combat characteristic for a melee fighter. If anything, the others are penalized.

If you pick a different Characteristic, that's your decision. Knowing full well that it isn't the best one for Lightsaber right out of the gate. I emphasize that because you can learn how to more effectively use a lightsaber with a different Characteristic by purchasing the relevant trees and talents.

Conclusion: Incorrect. It doesn't penalize other players. Just like you aren't penalized if you are a sniper, but decide to invest entirely in Willpower. Even though there you can never change it to use your highest characteristic, you aren't handicapped because you chose something that you know isn't ideal.

5 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

The XP penalty doesn't disappear once you pay it, it's forever. And you can't look at the form trees in isolation. Leaving out huge chunks of the available options can make anything look skewed.

You gain a benefit from purchasing the talent (so it isn't wasted XP) and you can't get any of the special lightsaber combat talents unless you get the specific trees anyway, so you buy your lightsaber form, you buy the "technique" talent and then you're at parity with the Brawn-using character. AND you get special attacks, AND you get to have good social skill Characteristics, or good Intellect, or good Agility. Since the special talents are typically tier 4-5 anyway, it's not like you can cheapskate your way to them anyway.

Conclusion: Irrelevant and incorrect.

2 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

The benefit is catching up to the people who are already there, by virtue of using Brawn. And you're not getting that XP back, that's why the XP penalty for non-Brawn builds is permanent. You pay just to do the thing the other PC is already doing well.

So you should have invested in Brawn in the first place. If you could pick any Characteristic to utilize for Lightsaber for free, almost nobody would use Brawn because there are less skills associated with it. Players who don't invest in Brawn are benefited greatly by the ability to pick a form tree because it allows them to make whatever characteristic build they want without having to consider Lightsaber at all (if they intend to pick up a form tree). Again, it isn't an XP penalty for all the reasons outlined above.

Conclusion: Irrelevant.

46 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

Sure, buddy.

I notice you didn't bother to rebut my argument and show why your arguments aren't.

Note: this is simply that I think that Brawn based lightsaber wielders who want to buy into (or start with, but that's really the same thing. Opportunity cost) a lightsaber form tree shouldn't get less than someone who buys into a form based on a different Characteristic.

I'm not actually saying something should be changed, I'm just saying that the guy has a point.

4 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

I notice you didn't bother to rebut my argument and show why your arguments aren't.

That's because my arguments are perfectly fine and I'm not here to score points by being obnoxious.

But you get nothing less by taking the Shi-Sho Knight and / or Juyo Beserker specialisation. The warrior in my F&D game took both specialisation, 1st Shi-Sho and 2nd Juyo, using an ancient sword she's the destroyer of the PC's group.

47 minutes ago, WolfRider said:

But you get nothing less by taking the Shi-Sho Knight and / or Juyo Beserker specialisation. The warrior in my F&D game took both specialisation, 1st Shi-Sho and 2nd Juyo, using an ancient sword she's the destroyer of the PC's group.

They are fine trees, and I don't actually have any issue with Juyo Beserker, but I think that Shii-Cho should have been given another of the unique lightsaber attack talents.