5 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

They are fine trees, and I don't actually have any issue with Juyo Beserker, but I think that Shii-Cho should have been given another of the unique lightsaber attack talents.

Why?

Going by the lore, Shii-Cho is the basis upon which all the other Forms evolved, with the Jedi even having an adage of "when all else fails, rely upon Shii-Cho."

By it's nature, Shii-Cho (being the foundation for all ligthsaber combat styles) is well-suited to being mixed in with the other "advanced" Forms, helping to shore up what might be weak points in a given Form. Both Anakin and Obi-Wan incorporated various elements of Shii-Cho into their respective expertise of Forms V and III, as did many other Jedi who chose to study one (or more) of the later Forms. Mechanically, this would mostly be defaulting to Brawn when making Lightsaber checks, especially if their preferred characteristic is penalized in some fashion due to a critical injury.

Mechanically, a saber monkey that chooses to take Shii-Cho and any of the other Form-based specs is going to suffer due to not having an option to increase their Force Rating, which makes many of the key talents of those other Form-based specs not have as potent of a benefit with only a single Force die. Niman Disciple is the exception, but then it's got one of the most expensive paths to reach the Force Rating talent. So in most instances, to reach Force Rating 2, a PC that combines Shii-Cho Knight with one of the other Form specs is looking to purchase a third specialization. I'd call that a definite cost to the character and a penalty for stacking Shii-Cho on top of another Form

I phrased that sloppily and didn't say quite what I meant. I actually agree with you (sort of). I mentioned earlier in the discussion that I thought that a case could be made for Shii-Cho specifically to not warrant an additional unique lightsaber talent, that my main issue with the argument was that people were saying that for balancing reasons, Shii-Cho (because it keyed off of Brawn) shouldn't have the additional talent. I still stand by my opposition to the balance concerns, but because of the lore, I think that Shii-Cho doesn't warrant an additional unique talent.

What I said was in that quote was intended to mean that I still think that a Brawn tree shouldn't not have a special thing just because it uses the default Characteristic.

2 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Why?

Going by the lore, Shii-Cho is the basis upon which all the other Forms evolved, with the Jedi even having an adage of "when all else fails, rely upon Shii-Cho."

By it's nature, Shii-Cho (being the foundation for all ligthsaber combat styles) is well-suited to being mixed in with the other "advanced" Forms, helping to shore up what might be weak points in a given Form. Both Anakin and Obi-Wan incorporated various elements of Shii-Cho into their respective expertise of Forms V and III, as did many other Jedi who chose to study one (or more) of the later Forms. Mechanically, this would mostly be defaulting to Brawn when making Lightsaber checks, especially if their preferred characteristic is penalized in some fashion due to a critical injury.

Mechanically, a saber monkey that chooses to take Shii-Cho and any of the other Form-based specs is going to suffer due to not having an option to increase their Force Rating, which makes many of the key talents of those other Form-based specs not have as potent of a benefit with only a single Force die. Niman Disciple is the exception, but then it's got one of the most expensive paths to reach the Force Rating talent. So in most instances, to reach Force Rating 2, a PC that combines Shii-Cho Knight with one of the other Form specs is looking to purchase a third specialization. I'd call that a definite cost to the character and a penalty for stacking Shii-Cho on top of another Form

Stacking specs, starting knight gets you to fr 3 in 1 spec and layering on a form on top of that is less of a cost. Btw Knight with unmatched interception far out soresu's soresu... other than the soresu technique talent to let you use int (which renegade form can do) I don't see a game mechanical reason for the soresu-defender spec anymore.

On 9/29/2019 at 6:55 PM, EliasWindrider said:

Stacking specs, starting knight gets you to fr 3 in 1 spec and layering on a form on top of that is less of a cost. Btw Knight with unmatched interception far out soresu's soresu... other than the soresu technique talent to let you use int (which renegade form can do) I don't see a game mechanical reason for the soresu-defender spec anymore.

Stacking parry and reflect from knight and soresu gives supreme parry 6 and improved reflect 5. Extra levels of parry and reflect can never hurt, and xp is infinite.

8 hours ago, Eoen said:

Stacking parry and reflect from knight and soresu gives supreme parry 6 and improved reflect 5. Extra levels of parry and reflect can never hurt, and xp is infinite.

Supreme parry is only useful if you don't attack (which hurts more than it helps, e the en if defensive stance is in the mix), stacking niman disciple on top of knight is more advantageous, except if you really want to use int for lightsaber and do it in 2 specs, but having willpower as primary is more advantageous than having intellect as primary. With 'infinite xp' Knight/niman-disciple/padawan-survivor-or-padawan is a super cool combo, That can get you a 323262 statline for a human, with 3 ranks of mechanics and padawan survivor/improved secrets of the jedi you'd be better at crafting/nodding a lightsaber than having int as primary. But yeah I see a corner case use for soresu defender no because of your post

On ‎9‎/‎29‎/‎2019 at 9:55 PM, EliasWindrider said:

Stacking specs, starting knight gets you to fr 3 in 1 spec and layering on a form on top of that is less of a cost. Btw Knight with unmatched interception far out soresu's soresu... other than the soresu technique talent to let you use int (which renegade form can do) I don't see a game mechanical reason for the soresu-defender spec anymore.

Thing to remember is not every F&D is going to permit characters to either begin with the Jedi career or even have access to those specializations. If you showed up to a F&D game I was running set in the Rebellion Era with a Jedi/Knight at FR2, I'd tell you to either remake the character using F&D careers and specs, or take your min-maxing antics to somebody else's table.

There's also the matter of the GM even allowing PCs to make use of that sidebar in the first place, which again not every GM is going to permit simply because a sidebar says "hey, this is a possible option for GMs."

And the "I don't see a need for this specialization anymore" is itself generally flawed, as that same "argument" could be leveled at the entirety of the Star Wars system in the wake of Genesys' ala carte talent pyramid method.

Mechanically ideal isn't what this game is about to my thinking. If you're only in it to min-max, Pathfinder is always an option. I certainly wouldn't welcome that mindset at my table.

36 minutes ago, Vek Baustrade said:

Mechanically ideal isn't what this game is about to my thinking. If you're only in it to min-max, Pathfinder is always an option. I certainly wouldn't welcome that mindset at my table.

Agreed. Some of the most fun characters I've played across dozens upon dozens of RPGs have been about as far from "mechanically ideal" as possible, and I still remember them quite fondly, while the "mechanically ideal" characters tend to be forgotten.

And yeah, the folks that created this game have said that the best option for any character is what best suits your concept, not what gives you the best bonuses.

9 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

Supreme parry is only useful if you don't attack (which hurts more than it helps, e the en if defensive stance is in the mix), stacking niman disciple on top of knight is more advantageous, except if you really want to use int for lightsaber and do it in 2 specs, but having willpower as primary is more advantageous than having intellect as primary. With 'infinite xp' Knight/niman-disciple/padawan-survivor-or-padawan is a super cool combo, That can get you a 323262 statline for a human, with 3 ranks of mechanics and padawan survivor/improved secrets of the jedi you'd be better at crafting/nodding a lightsaber than having int as primary. But yeah I see a corner case use for soresu defender no because of your post

The jedi ideal is to fight defensively. There a monastic order not a league of prize fighters, they value negotiation and non lethal approaches to conflict resolution over brute force. Also I would think the instructors at the temple, would tailor there instruction to the strengths and weaknesses of their students, they might prefer shii-cho for a strong species, or encourage Niman to strengthen mental toughness.

Also it’s likely a youngling learner might be trained in starfighter ace in addition to Padawan and a form.

10 hours ago, Vek Baustrade said:

Mechanically ideal isn't what this game is about to my thinking. If you're only in it to min-max, Pathfinder is always an option. I certainly wouldn't welcome that mindset at my table.

I believe the operative word here is only, no im not only here to optimize, but part of *my* fun is having a character that is effective at fulfilling my concept for him/her. And I usually max mean (i.e. broadly capable, few defects) rather than min max (it's a different type of objective function).

4 hours ago, Eoen said:

The jedi ideal is to fight defensively. There a monastic order not a league of prize fighters, they value negotiation and non lethal approaches to conflict resolution over brute force. Also I would think the instructors at the temple, would tailor there instruction to the strengths and weaknesses of their students, they might prefer shii-cho for a strong species, or encourage Niman to strengthen mental toughness.

Also it’s likely a youngling learner might be trained in starfighter ace in addition to Padawan and a form.

I believe the jedi ideal is to fight as a last resort, and only when necessary, fight to end the conflict as quickly as possible. But to your point I think the build is better defensively than it would be if soresu were in the mix instead of niman (I generally prefer adding black dice to upgrading from purple to red, especially since you can comit a force die to the sense defense double upgrade to get the same effect, soresu could do the same but then the trade off is a maneuver and 2 strain to get 1 red die vs not spending a maneuver or strain and having 2 black dice).

But the build I proposed was good not just with the saber, but also the force, socially, mechanics-skill-ly, and by using enhance a much better than decent pilot/gunner, not to mention being good at casual observation through the vigilance skill and being good on initiative checks thanks to constant vigilance talent and high willpower so it's a very well rounded build (good at many things).

If I ever wanted a pure and simple lightsaber beat stick, it would probably look like knight/ataru-striker/sage (also being decent with the force, socially, and as a pilot/gunner) but I've never played a character with ataru striker in the mix because I'm not trying to build a prize fighter.

14 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

I believe the operative word here is only, no im not only here to optimize, but part of *my* fun is having a character that is effective at fulfilling my concept for him/her. And I usually max mean (i.e. broadly capable, few defects) rather than min max (it's a different type of objective function).

I understand your position. You've posted your ideas of optimal builds repeatedly. My point is that dismissing an entire tree as no longer valid because a new tree has been introduced is spurious at worst and only your opinion at best. Many tables won't allow the Jedi career because of their chosen timeline or setting. Many won't allow purchasing an extra Force Rating at creation. Soresu remains an excellent defensive specialization that fits a variety of character concepts.

Why not take both and have impenetrable defenses? I don't see why they can't simply compliment each other.

Soresu has 4 ranks of Parry, as well as, of course, the special abilities (which would be greatly complimented by Knight). Knight has 2 ranks of Reflect and 2 ranks of Parry. If you combined the two trees, you'd have Parry 6 (8 damage reduction), Reflect 4 (6 damage reduction), Improved both, Supreme Parry, and 5 special defensive abilities.

You need at least one other tree besides Soresu and Knight.

1 hour ago, Stan Fresh said:

You need at least one other tree besides Soresu and Knight.

Padawn