I can't seem to find anything about whether Machine Trait stacks with armor or doesn't. As I am playing a tech-priest and our game is about to go into Ascension, I want to find out before the game progresses much further. I plan on getting the DS powerarmor eventually, but if they machine trait does not stack I might just save some money on armor as my character already has good quality carapace.

There isn't anything really set in stone for it. For my group we ruled it to be like the sub-dermal armor, the cranial shield, etc, which do stack. It is able to be reduced by AP of course.

If it is/becomes a character trait, it can stack with armor.

we had a discussion about: 1: armour, 2: natural armour, 3: machine trait and its armour

basically armour does not stack... point

"natural armour" as I understand it is jsut that... a natural kind of armour but still armour hence it does not stack

machine trait in my opinion gives just that... "natural" armour ... in the ruless it just says "you get armour points"

(with the addition that it does count for fire damage)

so in my opinion you are far better of with a DS (if aquired as an ascended character it gets best quality for an additional point of armour)

for you get 9 armor and +10 strength (+1 melee damage) and can use it with armour-monger (+2armor)

machine trait basically gives armour points and is no armour worn so it does not work with armour-monger by RAW

and PA is a sign of status and is always good to show off (and you are the only one who can run around in PA endlessly without recharging)

then again the flesh is weak gives you the machine trait... with autosanguine you are always considered lightly wounded even if in crit... get your unnatural int*x guy to fix you up with first aid for +x*INT-bonus wounds even while in crit or get a best quality mind implant and do it yourself with that medicae mechadendrite and your int which shouldn't be that bad... this does not work as a machine

with 13 armour and unnatural toughness you should have a decent damage reduction ... of course 5 armour points more is 5 armour points more if it would stack but as I see it when there is no explicit "it does stack" or a "+x armour" it does not

telekinetic shield for example has it written this way: "granting 1 Armour Point on every location in addition to any other armour you are wearing."

I'd generally assume that the Machine trait as well as the armour implants stack with normal armour. I mean, an Ascended Techpriest that can't afford Carapace or Power Armour, which would make The Flesh Is Weak superfluous? Not exactly likely, is it?

Cifer said:

Agreed. Which is why high-ranking AdMech's can reach a level of toughness (not necessarily the Characteristic) equivalent to a Space Marine, though in a very different way.

In any case, that is the way my group has always played it.

Stacks. What would be the point otherwise? As for examples...if I recall correctly, one of the major NPC;s in Ascension ( Vathek? ) had AP,s from both the Machine Trait and gear. But my DH books are currently not with me so I can´t be 100% sure.

Yes,

Unfortunately it DOES stack....

So your Tech Priest Magos with toughness 70, Unnatural Toughness (x2), Exemplar of Metal (Machine Trait 7), Best Craftsmanship Sub Skin Armour (3 AP), Best Craftsmanship Cranial Armour (2 AP), Best Craftsmanship Dragon Scale (9 AP) and a Suppression Shield, is prolly tougher than a Rhino APC and most certainely than an average Space Marine.

TB 14
Body: 23 AP
Arms: 19 AP (Right Arms 23 AP)
Legs: 19 AP
Head: 18 AP

The good news, a headshot with a MP Lascannon will still cause 15 wounds damage on average...*FRAK*

Santiago said:

Now appliying common sense (heresy I know), would you really let some have machine trait 7 and still claim that they can put subskin / cranial armour underneath?

Face Eater said:

My group largely came to the quick (but little talked about) consensus that almost anything after Machine 1 there wasn't enough dermal for that armor to sub under. Yes, by rules you can do it, but it seems kind of silly when there are no fleshy bits left. Kind of like how a Muscle Graft doesn't work if you have no muscle left.

Now, if you want to go all out there is nothing stopping you from pleading with your GM for the Armor Plating trait.

Filadan said:

From a Mechanicus point of view subdermal armour is what inferior fleshbags use because they can't become robots.

True,

I would never allow such a monster in one of my games but this is what I could come up with in two minutes.
Tech Priests are the Ultimate Tanks, even tougher than Space Marines.

Yes, al this does stack but it is up to the GM to keep the power creep at a level he feels comfortable with, in my games the Vindicare is off limits, I hate invulnerable pc's....they may become very powerful and influencial, but there is ALWAYS a bigger fish.

Aajav-Khan said:

Actually, nope. Vathek (or what ever his name is) doesn't wear traditional armour. He has a Machine (5) and Armour Plating giving him a total of AP 7 on all locations and that's it. In fact, not a single stated NPC in CA, DotDG, DH, or Ascension have both the Machine Trait and a separate suit of armour. Given that, I can't say whether it's stackable or not as there's simply no precedent, though it looks like the designers have gone out of their way to not give NPC's with the machine trait armour. Why? I do not know. Stackable or not, it can go either way and I can see a reason for either ruling.

On Subdermal Armour: most combat type NPCs who have the Machine Trait also have the trait Armour Plating which adds 2 points of armour to all locations. Since, to my knowledge, Armour Plating isn't available to PCs but subdermal armour is and boosts the armour by 1 to 2 points depending on location, it sounds like the almost perfect Armour Plating for PCs to me. Once there's no dermis, it ceases to be Subdermal and just becomes dermal armour ;-)

Santiago said:

Remember, to get a Tech-Priest up to that sort of resilience, you need to hit Rank 15 Magos... so a fairly generic Space Marine isn't necessarily an equal... but a Rank 7 Deathwatch character is much closer, particularly with the right equipment. I imagine such a Tech-Priest is comparable to a veteran Space Marine in Tactical Dreadnought Armour...

from france

not sure of that but in the case of tech priest (high ranking more machine than humane) wearing a dragon armor any hit should go trought the armor and than the more machine less human tech priest no? so it will stack? i ask this because i am not sure i understood the demonstration.

I high ranking tech priest is little more than a lot of metal with more metal inside controlled by canned brain with some human jerky on the side.
The machine is the inner clockwork, it is tough and resistant, the armour is the outer shell...

It does combine, sub dermal armour shouldn't stack but the book says it does so it does....the machine trait is armour but an added trait so it stacks.

The example is just show how insane those Tech Priests can become...

from france

so the weapon described in the radical handbookthe haywire rifle is their cryptonite? hum? still getting to a 10 meter range can be complicated with them.

the 8 spider said:

Hi there!

I don't think the Machine trait is supposed to stack with armour. In the Core Rulebook the Combat Servitor (p 338) has a carapace armour and Machine (4) + Armour Plating and ends up with an AP of 6.

a non ascended tech-priest with a lot of luck in rolling or a bit of it and point by system or a gm that let's him get stuff if he has a decent character background you can go for hive world mutant and have 30(cyber ressurected)+(2d10)20+20(4 advances)+10(machinator)+10(helot mining)=90 toughness get a minor mutation brute +10 toughness and a major mutation corpulent unnatural toughness +2 so having a TB of 20! (unascended) and with cybernetic implants plus 2 points of toughness to the bionic limbs (dunno if it is applied after or before unnatural T but I just do it afterwards)

then get best-cm subdermal skin for +3AP machine trait with 2 armour a best CM Dragon scale for 9 points armour

I don't know about cranial (book/page please?) of course of you can add a power field from the IH but thats no toughness

if you rolled max wounds it is 8+5+5(corpulent) + 10 (sound constitution) => 28 wounds

finally you have:

wounds: 28

TB: 20/22 wether it hits a bionic limb or not

armour: 14

with a naval shield for 8 AP

missing something?

now going for ascencion:

armour monger: +2 AP for DS

exemplar of metal-> 7 armour for machine trait (replaces 2 from cyber ressurection)

+10 TB (xp) (Toughness 110 is this ok with re rules? I can't see no can't do)

unnatural toughness *2 is already present I think it does not stack

+6* sound constitution

nice power field

finally

wounds: 34

TB: 22/24 wheter it hits bionic limb or not

armour: 21

still a naval shield for 8 AP

missing something?

so first hit hitting the shield at a bionic limb is at a 53 damage reduction so an mp lascannon (pen= dmg for this purpose) with 5d10+20 ~47.5 damage average is soaked by the shield which suffers a -1AP now

is this about the power level of a lvl 7 deathwatch character? or a space marine?

Sirion i cant see how, you after being fully cyberresurected, can get the machinator array or helot mining rig, or the brute or corpulent mutations, i mean a full cyber resurrection makes you more machine than most servitors...

But i dunno if you can mutate after being fully cyber ressurected.

the 8 spider said:

That, and Metal weapons. If I ever see one of those I might just find that I left the stove on and have to run home. Because that's the thing for the big meaty Tech-Priests. They can take a Bolter shot to the chest, but pull out the big stuff, or anti tech stuff, and they fall appart like anyone else. And don't ask your average Tech-Priest to dodge anything with too reasonable of consistency. My Tech personally throws down with a 15 Dodge skill. I can dodge out of the way of a stationary wall... maybe. If it's ranged or thrown at me, I stand better odds trying to shoot it down rather than dodging it, as I actually proved in one of our prior games .

@Sirion

missing something?

The fact that half of his TB comes from a mutation that will have him killed in his next oil-change?

Cifer said:

got any rules on that?

Sirion said:

Being a mutant in the Imperium is almost always either going to result in a death sentence or slavery, and the Adeptus Mechanicus are no different in this regard - indeed, their typical disdain for the organic can often mean that they're even less tolerant of mutation than their peers in the Imperium.

Mutation may come with a stack of potential mechanical advantages, but unless well concealed, it will see the character outcast at best and executed at worst. From a roleplaying perspective, mutation is not something to aspire to.

of course roleplaying perspective dictates not wanting mutations...

hive mutant is only one option to gain the mutations (right from the start) corruption is another one and if a lvl 8 ech-priest with all the needed equipment gains the corpulent mutation there is no medical lab that suddenly says hey he is mutated instead of augmenting him we should kill him

it is only an array of options for maximum armour/toughness/wounds => survivabiliy of a mp-lascannon and as I posted before I'ld try to not get the machine trait

thing is if you're discussing if subdermal armor stacks with the machine trait as you have no skin why don't you even mention a cyberressurected body with the machine trait probably would loose it's corpulent mutation? (and the need for actual food)

so at ascencion level he would be at 100 Toughness a 20/22 TB and the same amount of armour and 5 wounds less if he has no mutations at all

but we really are getting offtopic here

I can see the "it's a character trait so it's stacks with armour" arguments

but I go with revak's combat servitor incident and say it is armour and dosn't stack (as well as subdermal skin etc)