I'm pretty sure I know the asnwer to this, but I'm not 100% sure I can back it up on paper.

The situation is Player 1 has a ship with FTC, player 2 has a ship with Snap shot.

With the new ability queue, if Player 1 executes a manuever and is range 3, then uses FTC to boost into range 2, can player 2 then snap shot against that ship?

Basically, is having a valid target for snap shot part of the requirement for the ability to enter the queue? I'm inclined to believe that it was meant to be, but RAW I'm not sure I can support that. The trigger for it is after a ship executes a maneuver. And the effect is perform this attack as a bonus attack. Since the effect isn't resolved until the ability begins to resolve, it isn't until after player 1 boosts that the attack for snap shot resolves and can now find a valid target. (Range 2 in arc). I'm not sure which interpretation is correct. I know theres been a lot of talk about if you need to be able to resolve an ability to add it to the queue or not (Anakin and chopper, Old T vs soontir etc.) so this probably is too murky to decide right now.

There seems to be some debate on that.

One camp believes that there must be an explicit requirement to trigger an ability and only an explicit requirement must be met for that ability to enter the queue. The new rule that says an "ability's requirements" must be met to add that ability to the queue only calls out an explicit requirement in the example and the ability queue example presented in the appendices has examples of abilities entering the queue when that ability cannot be resolved (performing a red boost action on Jake Farrel adds Vectored Thrusters to the queue even though Jake is stressed). In this case, Snap Shot will always be added to the queue and Fine Tuned Controls could move a ship either into or out of range before resolving the attack from Snap Shot.

The other side believes that all explicit and implicit requirements must be met in order for an ability to be added to the queue, so you basically need to be fully able to resolve the ability at the time it triggers in order to add it to the queue and actually resolve the ability at a later point. In this case, Snap Shot would only be added to the queue if the ship is in arc and range before using Fine Tuned Controls, and Snap Shot can only be resolved if the ship is still in arc and range after resolving Fine Tuned Controls.

11 minutes ago, SirToastsalot said:

The situation is Player 1 has a ship with FTC, player 2 has a ship with Snap shot.

With the new ability queue, if Player 1 executes a manuever and is range 3, then uses FTC to boost into range 2, can player 2 then snap shot against that ship?

The short answer is yes, in this situation. However...

Both Snap Shot and FTC have the same timing window (after executing a maneuver) and Snap Shot does not require that the enemy ship be at range 2 to put it into the queue. The key issue in this situation is who is the first player. In your example Player 1 uses FTC to move into range 2 and so you can perform the Snap Shot bonus. However, if Player 1 had moved into Range 2 and then used FTC to boost into range 1, you would not be able to perform the Snap Shot bonus attack.

Flipping the scenario around, if player 1 has Snap Shot and Player 2 (with FTC) moves into range 3, Player 1 would put Snap Shot into the queue first and Player 2 would use FTC second. When Snap shot activates, there are no targets at range 2 and so it can not be performed. Then Player 2 boosts into range 2, Snap Shot does not trigger since it's already left the ability queue (and a boost is a move, not a maneuver).

I'm in the camp that, given the initial situation that @SirToastsalot described, the Snap Shot ship would get to perform the attack (as @Nspace described, it does matter who is first player).

Which brings up an interesting concept: From a strict reading of the card, the only trigger for Snap Shot to go into the queue is "after an enemy ship executes a maneuver." Any enemy ship, anywhere , no matter what range. Meaning, from a legal interpretation, you could conceivably trigger the card after every enemy maneuver, then measure range/arc to that ship, even if the ship is clearly outside of Snap Shot's threatened area.

Protip: Don't do that. Mechanically, it slows the game way down. Competitively, it shows pretty poor sportsmanship. And both of those are grounds for penalties in tournaments.

This is how I view it and not saying anyone else is wrong... but YES it would would trigger in this given scenario. Let me explain my thought process.

The ONLY requirement of Snap Shot is "after an enemy ships executes a maneuver." Take note, the requirements for this ability and the range requirement for the weapon are TWO different things. So in this scenario, did an enemy execute a maneuver? YES, so Snap Shot and FTC enter the ability queue.

Now, since the ship with FTC belongs to player 1, they get the choice to resolve FTC before player 2 gets to choose to resolve Snap Shot. Once they decide to use or not use FTC, player 2 then gets to resolve Snap Shot. Player 2 can then choose to attack and now may proceed to check range for available defenders .

Key thing for me is that there is no range requirement on Snap Shot.. just that a enemy ship executes a maneuver. You really cant take range into question until the resolving of the bonus attack.

Snap shot does have a range requirement on the right side of the card next to the ordinance icon “2”

8 minutes ago, Croisis said:

Snap shot does have a range requirement on the right side of the card next to the ordinance icon “2”

But it isn't a requirement of "triggering" the ability to put it into the queue, it is only a limiter on resolution. The important take away is "if the ability can trigger" is not the same thing as "can this ability be resolved", which is confusing many players.

Right, that's pretty much where I'm at currently, it also pertains to things like the new C1-0P and anakin to give Anakin evade without stress.

I do agree that as it's currently worded, snap shot and FTC enter the queue at the same time, and based on player order, may have a ship that is range 3 that boosts into range of snap shot and snap shot will trigger.

11 hours ago, SirToastsalot said:

Right, that's pretty much where I'm at currently, it also pertains to things like the new C1-0P and anakin to give Anakin evade without stress.

I do agree that as it's currently worded, snap shot and FTC enter the queue at the same time, and based on player order, may have a ship that is range 3 that boosts into range of snap shot and snap shot will trigger. resolve

FTFY

A question @shaunmerritt . Since the RRG makes a distinction between a maneuver and a move, would Snap Shot trigger after the FTC boost/barrel roll? I understand that FTC is After the maneuver but does that push it past the timing window for Snap Shot?

4 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

A question @shaunmerritt . Since the RRG makes a distinction between a maneuver and a move, would Snap Shot trigger after the FTC boost/barrel roll? I understand that FTC is After the maneuver but does that push it past the timing window for Snap Shot?

We simply don't know what FFG intends with this interaction unfortunately.

12 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

A question @shaunmerritt . Since the RRG makes a distinction between a maneuver and a move, would Snap Shot trigger after the FTC boost/barrel roll? I understand that FTC is After the maneuver but does that push it past the timing window for Snap Shot?

Snap Shot won't trigger off of a barrel roll or boost since those are moves but not maneuvers. It would trigger after a SLAM action or Adaptive Ailerons since those are maneuvers.

It has the same trigger as FTC so both abilities would be added to the ability queue in player order (first player's ability goes first and second player's ability goes second), but it would not be triggered by the boost or barrel roll from FTC.

But depending on what exactly is considered to be the trigger, if player 1 has FTC and player 2 has snap shot, player 1 ciould trigger FTC and player 2 Snap Shot, player 1 then boost into range and arc for snap shot after ending their manoeuvre out or range/arc, and player 2 could then snap shot them, triggered off the original manoeuvre.

\Hence the confusion.

It isn't just a question of triggers is it? Isn't it a question of meeting requirements as well?

The Rules Reference is quite clear that an ability's requirements must be met to go into the queue. What isn't clear is what all of the requirements are for Snap Shot to go into the queue.

There is zero question Snap Shot has the same timing-window trigger as FTC. Getting the trigger just lets you ask if you can meet all the requirements. Just pulling the trigger doesn't meet all the requirements for the gun going "BANG!"

I see many disingenuous arguments in this thread and in many threads related to FTC.

Yes, requirements is the correct words rather than trigger.

That's the thing though. FFG has a method of restricting requirements to just a certain range: they use the phrase "At range 2" or "at range 0 - 3" or the like. Those phrases are not in the Bonus Attack requirements paragraph of Snap Shot. By saying that range 2 is a requirement, you are adding in your own text, not reading what's on the card.

24 minutes ago, Nspace said:

That's the thing though. FFG has a method of restricting requirements to just a certain range: they use the phrase "At range 2" or "at range 0 - 3" or the like. Those phrases are not in the Bonus Attack requirements paragraph of Snap Shot. By saying that range 2 is a requirement, you are adding in your own text, not reading what's on the card.

I'd agree, if I were interpreting it how i think it works.

I'm interpreting it how I would expect FFG to rule it, based on about 5 years' experience of FFG doing exactly the opposite of what I both want and expect based on reading the cards and rules references.

23 hours ago, Frimmel said:

I see many disingenuous arguments in this thread and in many threads related to FTC.

Its not that is disingenuous, there is a matter of how the rules are written. I agree the requirements to perform the snap shot attack are having a ship at range 2 in your front arc, however can you say that being able to perform the attack at the time mentioned is the requirement for the ability to enter the queue?

As far as I can tell, the only requirement for snap shot to enter the queue is to have an enemy ship execute a maneuver. Most of the time, a ship executes a maneuver, snap shot enters the queue, then goes to resolve, you go through the attack flow chart which includes choosing a weapon and measuring range and arc to the target. If the aren't range 2 in arc than you don't perform the attack. Since FTC is the same timing window, if the FTC player is Player 1 and choose to boost into range 2 of a ship with snap shot, then snap shot now has a valid target when it goes to resolve (ship that executed a maneuver is range 2 in arc), even if it didn't have a valid target when it first entered the queue.

There clearly needs to be a little more on what is a requirement for abilities, and what are conditions that are followed when the ability resolves.

On 9/25/2019 at 9:49 AM, Stoneface said:

A question @shaunmerritt . Since the RRG makes a distinction between a maneuver and a move, would Snap Shot trigger after the FTC boost/barrel roll? I understand that FTC is After the maneuver but does that push it past the timing window for Snap Shot?

The ONE and ONLY trigger for Snap Shot is "after an enemy ship executes a maneuver."

Resolving Snap Shot after a ship does a Roll/Boost does not mean that the Roll/Boost themselves triggered Snap Shop. Just means there were abilities with the same timing that entered a queue, and Snap Shot triggered last. There is where people tend to split hairs and make this argument into something it is not (not saying you are but my peeps locally do).

This is the order of how this plays out, in the given scenario asked about before...

Player 1 (enemy) Player 2 (snap shot)

Player 1 moves (does nothing else)... Snap Shot is triggered (its livid)

Now, since Player 1 also has "after executing a maneuver" triggers, (such as FTC) those triggers enter an ability queue BEFORE the attack granted by Snap Shot can resolve

Player 1 does all their triggers abilities (boost, roll, etc.)

Player 2 now gets to perform the attack that is granted by Snap Shot... BUT obliviously only if the ship is in range 2 and in arc

Now if you are Player 1 and have Snap Shot, after Player 2 "executes a maneuver," Snap Shot triggers and you MAY perform that attack against Player 1. If you choose not to, nothing that ships does (outside of Slamming because doing a Slam is a maneuver) will trigger Snap Shot again between those two ships.

We are confusing ourselves by saying the trigger for Snap Shot and the attack granted by Snap Shot are the same thing.. they are not. You DO NOT need to have range or be in arc for Snap Shot to trigger. You NEED range in order to resolve Snap Shot's granted attack.

23 minutes ago, shaunmerritt said:

We are confusing ourselves by saying the trigger for Snap Shot and the attack granted by Snap Shot are the same thing.. they are not. You DO NOT need to have range or be in arc for Snap Shot to trigger. You NEED range in order to resolve Snap Shot's granted attack.

And first and foremost - you do not need to attack after you've triggered Snapshot, even if the target is valid.

E.g. an enemy INI5 ship is approaching. You know it's R1 attack will be devastating for your Snapshot unit and you might have to move your Anakin so that he can IniKill the enemy. But at R2, you think you can handle it and let Ani pursuit his original target he'll have strong mods against.

INI5 moves, you trigger Snapshot and find out the enemy didn't make it to R1 and sits in R2. You're completely free not to perform the attack - maybe there's an enemy Ace coming from another vector you'd rather try to shoot?

So, if Snapshot can trigger and not result in an attack per player's choice, I don't see why being able to perform said attack be a prerequisite for the whole ability to trigger.

Also - should we get a "SnapLaunch" talent that allows you to perform a bonus attack with ordnance of choice - how would you define "range requirement" inherited from the attack, if you have more than one option available? You'd have to meet either range band? Chosen one? Say you have a R1-2 missile and R2-3 torpedo with you - would you have to decide ahead of time which one will "donate" requirements for the ability, without measuring?

Insisting on checking and meeting all the bits ahead of queue would take away the essence of the queue. You might as well say abilities simply trigger and resolve fully in given order, without being queued.

51 minutes ago, shaunmerritt said:

This is the order of how this plays out, in the given scenario asked about before...

Player 1 (enemy) Player 2 (snap shot)

Player 1 moves (does nothing else)... Snap Shot is triggered (its livid)

Now, since Player 1 also has "after executing a maneuver" triggers, (such as FTC) those triggers enter an ability queue BEFORE the attack granted by Snap Shot can resolve

Player 1 does all their triggers abilities (boost, roll, etc.)

Player 2 now gets to perform the attack that is granted by Snap Shot... BUT obliviously only if the ship is in range 2 and in arc

Now if you are Player 1 and have Snap Shot, after Player 2 "executes a maneuver," Snap Shot triggers and you MAY perform that attack against Player 1. If you choose not to, nothing that ships does (outside of Slamming because doing a Slam is a maneuver) will trigger Snap Shot again between those two ships.

We are confusing ourselves by saying the trigger for Snap Shot and the attack granted by Snap Shot are the same thing.. they are not. You DO NOT need to have range or be in arc for Snap Shot to trigger. You NEED range in order to resolve Snap Shot's granted attack.

This is probably the best explanation I've seen.

There was a discussion on whether or not the use of FTC denied the use of Snap Shot based upon the definition of After given in the RRG. I guess they were ignoring the Ability Que.

Thanks for the clarification.

Seems one of the new rules posts directly addresses this question.

Q: If a ship with Fine-Tuned Controls (or another ability that triggers "after you execute/fully execute a maneuver") fully executes a maneuver in arc at range 2 of a ship equipped with Snap Shot, how is this resolved?

A: This is resolved one of several ways depending on which player is first player.

In all cases, both abilities ("After you fully execute a maneuver, you may spend 1 force charge to perform a boost or barrel roll action" and "After an enemy ship executes a maneuver, you may perform this attack against it as a bonus attack") are added to the ability queue.

If the first player controls the ship with Fine-Tune Controls, that player resolves this ability before Snap Shot is resolved. If, after performing a boost or barrel roll, the ship with Fine-Tuned Controls is no longer in range or arc to be chosen as a target for Snap Shot, Snap Shot cannot be resolved and is removed from the queue.

If the second player controls the ship with Fine-Tuned Controls, their opponent resolves Snap Shot first.

It's worth noting that with the new rules FTC is favoured over Snap Shot in both instances - if FTC is first, the Snap Shot player has to have the FTC player in arc to trigger Snap Shot, and they can FTC out. If Snap Shot is first, the FTC player can land out of Snap Shot range/arc and FTC in, and still not get Snap Shotted.

Which kinda stinks.

1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:

the Snap Shot player has to have the FTC player in arc to trigger Snap Shot,

If im reading you right, no he doesn't. Snap Shot is added to the queue, regardless if the enemy ship is able to be shot by it or not. That ruling even made it clear that Snap Shot *is* in the queue, it just would fizzle out if, at the time it would finally resolve, there wasnt a valid target.

20 minutes ago, Lyianx said:

If im reading you right, no he doesn't. Snap Shot is added to the queue, regardless if the enemy ship is able to be shot by it or not. That ruling even made it clear that Snap Shot *is* in the queue, it just would fizzle out if, at the time it would finally resolve, there wasnt a valid target.

you missed part of it.

the ship needs to be in arc and range for snap shot to be added to the queue.