Long question short; Can I Ensnare a ship into range of a bomb before it detonates?

The ability queue says that same-trigger timings are entered and resolved in an order determined by player order, then player arrangement. Since Ensnare and bombs both go off during the same trigger, can I Ensnare first, and push people into the bomb? I've gotten a few different interpretations.

A: Yes, both enter the queue in the order the player chooses. The Bomb doesn't have any requirements to enter queue other than being on the field and ready to go. As the controlling player, you would Ensnare the victim, and push them closer to the Bomb. Then the Bomb would deal damage to everything in Range 1.

B: No, you chose the order, but because the victim was outside of the bomb's range when the queue started, the Bomb can't damage it.

C: No, the bomb is a "game effect" and automatically goes at the start of the queue. (Follow-up question; what constitutes a "Game Effect?")

C) No.. game effects trigger before pilot abilities. So the bomb would go off first.

In this case, yes, the ship drops the bomb, but the timing of the bomb going off is a game effect. Same goes for flying over a debris field.. you take the stress and roll the die before triggers for the ship can occur.

16 hours ago, WASDclick said:

... (Follow-up question; what constitutes a "Game Effect?")

Wouldn't we all like to know!

The common assumption is that mandatory/not-optional abilities/effects that are in the Rules Reference are probably "game effects" while optional abilities that are from cards are probably "player abilities". In between those two extremes you also find optional abilities in the Rules Reference and mandatory effects on some cards and it's not clear where those fall in the strictly binary choice given by the rules.

Detonation of bombs/mines is not optional and is in the Rules Reference so most will not dispute the categorization of "game effect" ...although some will claim that because the bomb belongs to a particular player it could be a "player effect".

game effects are pretty much everything that happens in the game. there is currently no clearer definition than that, but we do know what constitutes an ability. a bomb exploding is not an ability, but it is some sort of effect... ensnare is an ability. it's therefore reasonable to conclude that bomb explosions will always occur before abilities at the end of activation.

"Game Effects" is used twelve times in the rules reference without being specifically defined. It is typically used to describe things like stress from a red maneuver or red action, a range bonus in combat, and in defining "gain X token" as not being an action. In discussing overlaps and ships skipping their perform action step it uses "it can still perform actions granted from other game effects." Those sorts of "game effects" typically result from abilities.

I'm of the theory that anything that is mandatory is a "game effect." Once an ability is resolved it also becomes a "game effect."

12 hours ago, Frimmel said:

"Game Effects" is used twelve times in the rules reference without being specifically defined. It is typically used to describe things like stress from a red maneuver or red action, a range bonus in combat, and in defining "gain X token" as not being an action. In discussing overlaps and ships skipping their perform action step it uses "it can still perform actions granted from other game effects." Those sorts of "game effects" typically result from abilities.

I'm of the theory that anything that is mandatory is a "game effect." Once an ability is resolved it also becomes a "game effect."

Yeah, we REALLY need a clear definition of what is a player ability and what is a game effect. My interpretation is that anything that is an effect generated by established in-game rules is a game effect (like gaining stress from a debris field, devices detonating, and removing green/orange tokens at end of turn), while everything created by pilot and upgrade cards (whether mandatory or otherwise) is a player ability. I'm not sure where I put critical damage card effects... I would probably lump them in with game effects. In a nutshell (MY OPINION):

• GAME EFFECTS (these always move to the front of the ability queue when triggered)
  • Maneuver Difficulty effects (gaining stress for red, removing stress for blue)
  • Suffering Obstacle Effects (damage, stress, loss of perform action step)
  • Suffering token effects (Jam, Tractor, etc)
  • Device Detonation (Bombs and Mines)
  • Suffering Critical Damage Card effects
• PLAYER ABILITIES (these are all queued according to player order and preference, after all relevant game effects)
  • Mandatory abilities (anything with "must," or without "may," in the game text)
  • Optional abilities (all "may" effects)
  • Actively repairing Critical Damage Cards

While I (like everyone) have ideas on how to clarify and streamline matters, offering suggestions and opinions won't really help us figure out how the rules currently work .

critical damage cards have effects and abilities. i believe its mentioned in the core rule book, where the term game effect is used a few more times. (can't be bothered to look it up right now).

as in, the effects on the cards are game effects. the action: headers are player abilities.

34 minutes ago, meffo said:

critical damage cards have effects and abilities. i believe its mentioned in the core rule book, where the term game effect is used a few more times. (can't be bothered to look it up right now).

as in, the effects on the cards are game effects. the action: headers are player abilities.

Good distinction.

6 hours ago, meffo said:

critical damage cards have effects and abilities. i believe its mentioned in the core rule book, where the term game effect is used a few more times. (can't be bothered to look it up right now).

as in, the effects on the cards are game effects. the action: headers are player abilities.

"Game Effect" is used in the rulebook only three times. Once under critical damage markers and twice under condition cards.

14 hours ago, emeraldbeacon said:

Yeah, we REALLY need a clear definition of what is a player ability and what is a game effect.

I think where it crosses us up is that abilities lead to "game effects." Ric Olie pilot for example is an ability however it works the same as landing on an obstacle which we understand as a "game effect." Did {event} happen? If "yes" then "must do" consequence.

Kanan Jarus pilot though has "may" in his ability. Did {event} happen? If "yes" then you may choose to invoke consequence. But for the ship on the other end of that consequence it is now facing a "game effect" a "must do" consequence.

Both abilities. Both with "game effects."

All of this is FFG's fault for not having properly constrained our reading of things in the first place. It has been going on since 1st Edition. Now with the now ability queue language they are trying to tighten up interactions. Telling us things need to be read with more limited choices. And of course you can't put the cat back in the bag. Well not without a lot of scratching and clawing and biting and hissing.

Here is a stretch.. but would every token be tied to a game effect?