17 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

Nice, so the format you like should get all the attention and the format I like will basically cease to exist.

IMO it makes more sense to make Extended the primary format and Hyperspace the gimmick. Why? Because Hyperspace lists are both legal and potent in extended, so people that want to fly a hyperspace list are perfectly capable of doing so (and winning) at an extended tourney.

I think the most interesting but least likely solution is having extended and Hyperspace have zero overlap except for some of the core ships. If someone doesn't want to play against Nantex or Regedi, play extended, if you don't like Phantoms, you can play Hyperspace. The problem is that now that there are so many power creeped ships in hyperspace, you have to deal with them in both formats.

This would be even more interesting if they started rotating ships out of hyperspace, so for example the Guardians of the Republic pack would be legal in both formats, but maybe the ARC and Delta pack pilots (like Anakin) could rotate out and only be playable in extended and the N1 and BTLB would only be playable in hyperspace.

At that point, you’ve just turned Extended into a different version of Hyperspace, removing what seems to be a major factor in support of Extended, the access to all cards and ships.

6 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

this game would be pretty ******* pointless without Arcs, so no to greater restrictions

plus there's the side effect of having to tell folks who bought cool stuff that they can't be used in certain tournaments because reasons

Namely, the quite good reason that the format requires that lists be made from a rotating selection of ships, and the ship they want to use isn't on the list. Seriously, if they don't want to play with the restrictions, they can sign up for the unrestricted (Extended) tournaments.

4 hours ago, Tvboy said:

I think the most interesting but least likely solution is having extended and Hyperspace have zero overlap except for some of the core ships. If someone doesn't want to play against Nantex or Regedi, play extended, if you don't like Phantoms, you can play Hyperspace. The problem is that now that there are so many power creeped ships in hyperspace, you have to deal with them in both formats.

I thought the whole point of Extended was that you could fly anything you owned.

Nah, if there’s one format worlds should be, it’s extended. It’s not really worlds if half the available ship choices are out. A world champ contender should be prepared to outfly anything with their chosen list. Eliminating half the field choices from the beginning is just... boring.

So then what was the point of Hyperspace format this year then? Give everyone an equal shot to get to worlds. That’s why there were so many HSTs and all of them included worlds invites to the winners. Leveling the playing field a bit so that everyone has a fair shot of securing an invite. But once you make it there? No quarter given.

Now, early on I think there was some discussion about having a hyperspace format world championship, so essentially their would be 2 world champs for each respective format, but I think the FFGOP rework messed some of that up.

Also if you’re going to rotate ships in hyperspace, you need to go all in, no evergreens. Rebels didn’t always have the T-65, some imperial squadrons (like bomber squadrons) don’t have Tie /Lns, etc. only problem is the resistance, FO, CIS and Republic will suffer from this problem until ship choice count goes up.

First of all, no. I want to play Extended all the time. I want to be able to play what I want to play. Hyperspace is cool. I like my extended.

Second, balance isn't impossible. Its just a moving target we can get closer and farther from.

Thirdly, having different formats IS A GREAT IDEA. Make them reasonably different.

4 hours ago, JJ48 said:

Namely, the quite good reason that the format requires that lists be made from a rotating selection of ships, and the ship they want to use isn't on the list. Seriously, if they don't want to play with the restrictions, they can sign up for the unrestricted (Extended) tournaments.

Oh sure, we'll just double the amount of local tournies to adjust to these expectations 😏

"Apologies, new players who are necessary to keep the community healthy, you can't play those cool ships you bought.

See, we're practicing for hyperspace tournaments today.

Come back in two weeks for the extended, assuming anyone shows up to the 'casual' event."

The hyperspace format currently is perfectly fine. As long as rotation includes ships released or re-released into second edition, it will remain that way.

And honestly, springing to rotation for the sake of balance is cheap and lazy. You can have a balanced game with these many pieces, it's more than manageable. Again, this isn't MTG were we're at god knows how many countless cards printed.

14 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

And honestly, springing to rotation for the sake of balance is cheap and lazy. You can have a balanced game with these many pieces, it's more than manageable. Again, this isn't MTG were we're at god knows how many countless cards printed.

I think it's less to do with balance and more to do with, what's the point of Hyperspace? Without any sort of rotation, Hyperspace will more and more become "Extended, just with a couple ships you can't use."

that seems just fine?

we're not even remotely near the point were the two formats overlap to an excessive degree. Once, after years(?), HS has fufilled its purpose we can roll it into one format

13 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

that seems just fine?

If you only care about Extended, sure. But believe it or not, some people actually like Hyperspace as a format, and not just as Extended Lite.

6 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

If you only care about Extended, sure. But believe it or not, some people actually like Hyperspace as a format, and not just as Extended Lite.

Great

So you'll get to enjoy it for a LONG time before we even approach that point

And new players buying into the game won't have to be awkwardly alienated for no reason!

1 minute ago, ficklegreendice said:

Great

So you'll get to enjoy it for a LONG time before we even approach that point

And new players buying into the game won't have to be awkwardly alienated for no reason!

I see. So the existence of two formats is straightforward enough for newbies, but the idea that they might in any way be different or have different requirements would be utterly baffling for them.

Question: just how low is your view of newbies' intelligence?

13 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

I see. So the existence of two formats is straightforward enough for newbies, but the idea that they might in any way be different or have different requirements would be utterly baffling for them.

Question: just how low is your view of newbies' intelligence?

I'm not sure if you're trying to be intentionally misleading or simply not thinking outside of your own situation

Put yourself into the shoes of a local TO, trying to arrange xwing events at local game stores

Which event do you set up? You're a human being with a life outside of xwing, believe it or not, so you might actually have to pick!

So, do we go for the hypothetical hyperspace and risk alienating new players who may or may not have kept up with the rotation due to interest in available ships? Or do we do the hypothetical, 'casual' extended and risk annoying the vets that want tournament practice.

Currently, you can Hyperspace very comfortably knowing all released 2nd Ed content is allowed.

So how about we put in a little more thought and consideration to the Logistical issues involved in maintaining two super-distinct formats before assuming I'm insulting anyone's intelligence, k?

4 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

I'm not sure if you're trying to be intentionally misleading or simply not thinking outside of your own situation

Oh, the irony...

5 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Put yourself into the shoes of a local TO, trying to arrange xwing events at local game stores

Which event do you set up? You're a human being with a life outside of xwing, believe it or not, so you might actually have to pick!

Which format do the store's regulars prefer? If tastes are split, what was the last format run there?

Remember. For actual petitions, use change.org.

Whoa... people still play competitive X-Wing? I thought the only ones left playing competitive X-Wing were the podcasters still desperately trying to sell their T-Shirts and fill their Patreons? I mean, Gencon had, what, nearly 50% of the tickets for Day 1 and Day 2 still available this year?

Now would a less obtuse and more streamlined competitive format bring some of the numbers back? Possibly, but I think it needs to be simpler not more complex , so moving to one universal (read: Extended) format would probably help. No point worrying about the "new players" (do these even exist or are they purely a hypothetical consideration? Honest, non-rhetorical question. At least locally, I've only gone to three events since 2.0 dropped, but I didn't see a single new face at any of them..) not having access to the old stuff, since with only a few exceptions the best options in each faction are the Hyperspace Ships anyways, so flying Extended junk like YT-2400s or Auzitucks tends to be a handicap, not a boon.

18 hours ago, Something Wicked said:

If people are winning extended tournaments with Hyperspace legal lists, I don't see how Hyperspace can be considered irrelevant.

This, I think, is the sticking point - if Hyperspace lists are winning extended tournaments, then Hyperspace actually is irrelevant, since the end result is the same in either case - two players using different lists, one of which has been designed with a smaller card pool and one with a larger. That's no different than one player having access to a larger collection while the other has access to a smaller.

What about Quickbuild ? No Glory ? Battle of Yavin ? Favorite ?

FFG has made more format variations than the V1 and we come back to the same problem : Only competitions formats at the expense of other formats that deserves attention. Especially Quickbuild and Escalation who it's really good and worth it.

With the Multiplayer Pack coming, I hope it will bring more news formats than doing the same format again and again.

I think the current formats are fine right now. A new player can purchase 2.0 without the hassle of buying 1.0 stuff and a conversion kits and stick to hyperspace or play extended.

Once we get to the point where rotations make sense, organized play will need to reevaluate the formats. It may make more sense to just combine them than to alienate parts of the player base with rotations. It just depends on how ffg handles the rotations.

17 minutes ago, reqent said:

I think the current formats are fine right now. A new player can purchase 2.0 without the hassle of buying 1.0 stuff and a conversion kits and stick to hyperspace or play extended.

Once we get to the point where rotations make sense, organized play will need to reevaluate the formats. It may make more sense to just combine them than to alienate parts of the player base with rotations. It just depends on how ffg handles the rotations.

I think it depends on what Hyperspace is. If it's just meant to be the beginner mode for people with only 2.0 ships, we may as well scrap it now, seeing as how it already includes non-2.0 ships, and if people are winning Extended matches with Hyperspace lists, then obviously the larger pool veterans have can't be that much of an advantage (and therefore, no need to separate the newbies from them).

If, however, Hyperspace is a format meant to challenge players by limiting their options, it not only makes sense to keep it separate, but also to keep it small and constantly changing.

FFG probably initially conceived of Hyperspace for the first reasons, but it accomplishes both, and I've heard of many veterans who like it for the second. FFG needs to decide which vision of Hyperspace to embrace before they can decide what its future will be.

Its getting to the point where Hyperspace and Extended aren't very different from each other. Personally I always fly Extended because most of my favorite Scum ships are still there. Whenever we switch to play Hyperspace, I don't try to come up with a new list in Scum, I just switch over to play CIS or Resistance because everything there is legal. As a strictly casual player, I see Hyperspace as a nuisance that forces me to play ships that are not my favorites. While it does force me out of my comfort zone and learn to fly other ships, it really doesn't change the overall dynamic of the game.

If you want the challenge of making a list with limited resources. That's great! I actually like the concept of working within certain constraints. But trying to keep a limited list balanced so all players can have fun is extremely difficult (ask just about any scum player how they feel about Hyperspace). FFG did promise that eventually they will rotate old ships out and new ships in. We just have to wait for them to decide on how to best do this, and when (just like I am patiently waiting for my coveted Yoda, Hondo, and Darth Jar Jar crew). Just realize, the difficulty of picking which ships to keep and which ones to pull to keep a semi-balanced opportunity for each faction is more than you think. Right now their focus is getting all this other amazing product they have promised us out. Once this category 5 hurricane of plastic and cardboard goodies they have coming settles down to a dull roar I expect we will see more fine-tuning of the formats.

I would hope we can shelve this discussion until OP can stick with a name for the GrandPrimeHyperOpenCup tournaments, and make a sensible calendar for said tournies.

In one of the early 2.0 presentations, I recall FFG saying OP would be more involved and communicative, but it feels like that idea never took off from the landing pad.

Hyperspace is unnecessary and doesn't matter.

just posting one last time to say I'm officially done caring.

hyperspace is dead. put it out of its misery and make everything extended.

I'm done fighting for this

23 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

just posting one last time to say I'm officially done caring.

hyperspace is dead. put it out of its misery and make everything extended.

I'm done fighting for this

Same here. Hyperspace was always the superior format in almost every way, and now it's the fringe SOS only format? O...k...

Extended had an intrinsic motivation for people who wanted their extra ships, or more combowing, or whatever reason. Hyperspace sadly got its relevance mainly from being the competitive format. Sadly because the playerbase didn't appreciate the higher (!) diversity of lists and the narrow band of list performance.

I'm quite sure that only limiting the pool without actual tournament relevance is not enough intrinsic motivation for enough people.

1 hour ago, Kieransi said:

just posting one last time to say I'm officially done caring.

hyperspace is dead. put it out of its misery and make everything extended.

I'm done fighting for this

Sorry, mate. We may have had different views on it, but I respect you going to bat for Hyperspace.