My friends! Do not let the Nantex, the Jedi, or the Queue distract you from the biggest annoyance the game faces right now: formats!

I've had this rant before but I feel like having it again so bear with me.

2.0 is great, I love it.

But the problem with releasing 2.0 was that they couldn't possibly rerelease all the ships and they didn't want to have to tell new players to go looking on eBay for 1.0 stuff and they didn't want to tell the 1.0 players "hey you guys just got your Gunboat but you'll never get to fly it now." And this was how the conversion kits came about.

This could have all been fine, but the massive problem was that they wanted new players to be able to pick up only new ships and be competitive, and they wanted old players to be able to fly their old stuff and have fun. The two conflicting playerbases meant that there needed to be two formats. There was no way around it.

This still could have all been fine but then the biggest problem came about: the app was easier to program with one set of points for all the formats and just a different banlist in each format, and the players who memorize points didn't want two sets of points. This creates a form of the game where balance is impossible. I don't mean that the devs did a bad job or something, I mean they can't possibly balance the game with these constraints. There's no way to do it. More ships mean more efficient combos and win conditions. If you have more equally balanced but slightly different options, you will be able to build a better list, that's just how it is.

The only possibilities are to either make the big factions be like Empire, where they're completely dominant in Extended, like Scum, where they're bad in Hyperspace, or like Rebels, where the faction has massive internal imbalance and the Hyperspace ships are way better than the Extended ships. Ultimately, it's an untenable situation. Additionally, it doesn't achieve the purpose of having Hyperspace because new players still feel a pressure to buy all the things to compete at all the extended tournaments.

What I would like to see is the following:

• Hyperspace is the "competitive" format
  • even (and relatively low, 4-5) ship count across factions
  • frequent, aggressive points adjustments (every 2-4 months )
  • rotations announced ahead of time (for example, if wave 10 has an Auzituck repack, it's announced immediately that this will rotate out the U-Wing)
• Extended is the "casual" format
  • not used at any official tournaments
  • relatively infrequent points adjustments (every 6-12 months)
  • different points from hyperspace (if necessary)
  • not forgotten, but given new "fun" releases such as objectives, more obstacle choices, fan-designed cards (voted on in a similar manner to ideas.lego.com), etc.

Would this be something you all would like? I'd love to hear your opinions.

At some point in the future sure. But there aren’t enough ships in each faction yet for a decent hyperspace rotation.

Plus I want diverse, competitive games. I want world’s to include every ship and upgrade in the game. I don’t think balance is quite monster you say it is. I don’t think we have to sacrifice all that great list diversity just because a few broken combos lock out a few upgrades now and then.

Ffg making Nationals (grand championships) extended signalled the end of any real relevance for HS.

All the big events (Nationals, SOS, Continentals and Worlds) are Extended.

The only HS event are the HSTs. And since there are so many, they are akin to glorified Store Champs. And don't have the glamour or entrant numbers of old style Regionals.

I really enjoyed the initial limited HS style format. With nothing getting rotated out, HS is just Extended-lite now.

So i feel the dual formats don't have any major relevance, unless OP decides to make its 15th major course correction in the last year.

While I agree what there needs to be better distinctions between the two formats, I don’t think they need different point values. I also oppose the notion that Extended should be the “casual” format. It will be more difficult to get right having tournaments for both, but I think the rewards are worth it.

I like the idea of rotation for Hyperspace, but think that X-Wing is hamstrung by the notion that there are some ships that can’t rotate out (X-Wing, TIE Fighter, and so on). With this sedimentary block of ships, I think we could see people just sticking to what doesn’t go out for consistency. What I have heard proposed that could be cool for those ships is a pilot rotation. One season, you have Wedge and Biggs as options for t-65 pilots, the next season you have Luke and Thane (just examples). This gives even the “always there” ships some nice variety. This isn’t perfect, obviously (an argument being if you rotate say Vader pilot out, you’ve effectively removed the TIE Advanced), but still intrigues me. Oh, and definitely some advanced warning for rotation, however it would be done.

I think perhaps my problem with extended tournaments existing is the having to practice two lists aspect. I could see Worlds having a side event for extended but I just don't like the idea of trying to compete with such a lopsided and imbalanced pool.

I think a lot of competitive players don't like having to find both an extended and a Hyperspace list, which is partly why the data shows so many of the lists in extended tournaments are also hyperspace legal.

Edit: another aspect is that X-Wing is largely a card game, and from a game design perspective, balance/design gets exponentially harder as more cards and interactions are added

16 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

(an argument being if you rotate say Vader pilot out, you’ve effectively removed the TIE Advanced)

That's not an argument against rotating out Vader; it's an argument for fixing the others.

8 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

I think perhaps my problem with extended tournaments existing is the having to practice two lists aspect. I could see Worlds having a side event for extended but I just don't like the idea of trying to compete with such a lopsided and imbalanced pool.

I think a lot of competitive players don't like having to find both an extended and a Hyperspace list, which is partly why the data shows so many of the lists in extended tournaments are also hyperspace legal.

Edit: another aspect is that X-Wing is largely a card game, and from a game design perspective, balance/design gets exponentially harder as more cards and interactions are added

While somewhat understandable, couldn't people who don't want to fly multiple lists just limit themselves to one format or the other?

When 2.0 came out, I was super against the idea of a smaller, rotating format. To me, the appeal of this game is to fly your favorite Star Wars ships and pilots. As time went on and I saw more arguments, however, I began to accept the concept of Hyperspace, especially as a new player thing. Then they pretty much abandoned the concept of "only released in 2.0 ships" almost right away though, which was super weird.

In that way, I wouldn't mind if they tried to bring that back in line. Also, it's true that a game can hardly stay balanced the larger it gets, no matter how hard you try.

On the other hand, I was just reading a thread last night about how the representation in tournaments is amazingly varied. I've scarcely seen that in a game, so we might be able to get away with avoiding such precautions, at least for the time being. It probably wouldn't hurt to keep the idea ready at such a time when the game gets too big to handle again.

13 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

That's not an argument against rotating out Vader; it's an argument for fixing the others.

While somewhat understandable, couldn't people who don't want to fly multiple lists just limit themselves to one format or the other?

I think a lot of competitive players would be sad if the answer to the concern was "just don't go to worlds, EZ"

I like shaking up lists every now and then so it's not really a concern to me, my problems with the format thing are the ones I laid out in my original post really.

8 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

I think perhaps my problem with extended tournaments existing is the having to practice two lists aspect. I could see Worlds having a side event for extended but I just don't like the idea of trying to compete with such a lopsided and imbalanced pool.

I think a lot of competitive players don't like having to find both an extended and a Hyperspace list, which is partly why the data shows so many of the lists in extended tournaments are also hyperspace legal.

Edit: another aspect is that X-Wing is largely a card game, and from a game design perspective, balance/design gets exponentially harder as more cards and interactions are added

While I see your point, what I think is the solution is making sure there is sufficient number of tournaments for both formats so that if someone decides they want to focus on one format or the other, they have plenty of options.

I’m also with @TasteTheRainbow on that I think Worlds should be open to anything and everything. Now, a possible way to compromise between these two views is to mutate coruscant into the premier Hyperspace format. It already implements card requirements. Keep that and add on the current HS rotation.

I do understand that more cards mean more complexity and difficulty to balance, but that’s one of those things that I think is worth striving for, even with the difficulties.

16 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

That's not an argument against rotating out Vader; it's an argument for fixing the others.

Oh, definitely. I put that example in because, while fixing the other TIE Advanced pilots (or any other ships with the “one good pilot” problem) is what should happen, history has taught me that such fixes take time. And until that fix comes around, I can almost guarantee that kind of complaint will be leveled if a pilot rotation was implemented.

though, to be fair, complaints will happen no matter what.

I personally don't like worlds being extended. It sends the message that Hyperspace doesn't matter because the most important event of the year that everything leads up to is extended.

Right now the sense that we get from having both formats coexist is the idea that Hyperspace is the "new player format" for a couple random store champs, and Extended is the competitive format. If we're going to have everything legal for the competitive events, just let the new players jump in the deep end and play extended with their limited ship pool.

my point is that I see it as all or nothing: either Hyperspace is the premier competitive format, or it has no purpose.

8 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

I think a lot of competitive players would be sad if the answer to the concern was "just don't go to worlds, EZ"

I like shaking up lists every now and then so it's not really a concern to me, my problems with the format thing are the ones I laid out in my original post really.

I would hope that if FFG had two tournament formats, that they would have enough tournaments (at the right levels) to satisfy both crowds.

9 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

I personally don't like worlds being extended. It sends the message that Hyperspace doesn't matter because the most important event of the year that everything leads up to is extended.

Right now the sense that we get from having both formats coexist is the idea that Hyperspace is the "new player format" for a couple random store champs, and Extended is the competitive format. If we're going to have everything legal for the competitive events, just let the new players jump in the deep end and play extended with their limited ship pool.

my point is that I see it as all or nothing: either Hyperspace is the premier competitive format, or it has no purpose.

Would the adjustment of Coruscant to the World’s level Hyperspace event help?

Just now, SabineKey said:

Would the adjustment of Coruscant to the World’s level Hyperspace event help?

Other way around and I might be ok with it. Worlds, System Opens, Regionals, and Store Kits are all Hyperspace.

Casual Kits, Day 2 side events at the System Opens, and the Coruscant Invitational are extended.

55 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

Extended is the "casual" format

• not used at any official tournaments

No. If this is the case, given FFG's release rate, it will be years before all the old ships even have a chance at having a turn in tournaments.

And I think that as long as Hyperspace Trials grant invites to Worlds, that the Hyperspace format will be relevant.

There is room for both.

Quote

I personally don't like worlds being extended. It sends the message that Hyperspace doesn't matter because the most important event of the year that everything leads up to is extended.

If Worlds is extended, everyone who flew Hyperspace lists to qualify can still fly their Hyperspace lists at Worlds. But if Worlds is Hyperspace only, then people who qualified with Extended lists do have to change.

Quote

...why the data shows so many of the lists in extended tournaments are also hyperspace legal.

If people are winning extended tournaments with Hyperspace legal lists, I don't see how Hyperspace can be considered irrelevant.

1 hour ago, Darth Seridur said:

Ffg making Nationals (grand championships) extended signalled the end of any real relevance for HS.

All the big events (Nationals, SOS, Continentals and Worlds) are Extended.

The only HS event are the HSTs. And since there are so many, they are akin to glorified Store Champs. And don't have the glamour or entrant numbers of old style Regionals.

I really enjoyed the initial limited HS style format. With nothing getting rotated out, HS is just Extended-lite now.

So i feel the dual formats don't have any major relevance, unless OP decides to make its 15th major course correction in the last year.

For many(most?) competitive players an HST is the largest event they’ll attend. It is not a niche event to actual players outside of Internet forums.

Heck, I'd like there to be 3 formats (and that's before getting into the merits of objectives or similar):

1.Second Edition

This is where Hyperspace started, and I think it should have remained as the casual format. Re-released ships only. Used for intro events and for getting new people into the game. Genuinely a fun format as it is now.

2.Extended

The do-what-you-want format. Used at store-champ level competitions. Anything goes.

3.Hyperspace

This would be the prime competitive format for worlds and regionals etc. Aggressive rotation. Contains the most recent wave or 2, and a random handful of other ships (from any point in the release cycle) so that each faction has 5-6 ship options.

Hyperspace is currently the bastard child of 1 and 3, when in reality they should be different formats aimed at different crowds.

2 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

Other way around and I might be ok with it. Worlds, System Opens, Regionals, and Store Kits are all Hyperspace.

Casual Kits, Day 2 side events at the System Opens, and the Coruscant Invitational are extended.

But does that actually fix your problem? You still have people forced to play Hyperspace, even in Extended side events, making it the neglect format. Same song, second verse.

I guess my ultimate stance is that I disagree that we have to turn Extended into a secondary way to play for Hyperspace to flourish. Again, doing both is more difficult, but has the potential to give most everybody a change to play as they like, even at the highest level of competitive play.

I disagree with the OP wholeheartedly.

The game should be balanced around Extended, which is the complete game. Hyperspace has its place as a competitive limited format, but should be used to change up the meta in interesting ways or to change a "solved" meta, but it does not represent the game in a complete state.

Worlds should be Extended as it represents expertise with the game as a whole. Coruscant was previously used to try alternate formats to test the skill of its contenders, and I believe it would be a good place for Hyperspace. The Coruscant Invitational can be the best-of-the-best tournament for Hyperspace.

You can have both formats without considering that one or the other "doesn't matter" or that the game is unbalanced as long as you balance Extended first, then use that in consideration of your ban list for Hyperspace. Look at Warmachine Masters and Champions . Extended : Masters and Hyperspace : Champions.

It would be really cool if FFG updated the No Glory and Playing Favorites variants at some point. They haven't really updated either since the Resistance & First Order Conversion kits were released. I would be even cooler if they updated some of the other variants they've developed in the app.

I would have liked to see two paths or "tracks" for Worlds: One for Hyperspace lists, the other for Extended. Yes you'd have 2 Worlds champions, but they'd be champions of their respective format.

We can only guess at the future of Hyperspace rotating ships out and truly being a limited ship format, but for now it feels like Extended Jr.

During one of the FFG livestreams this summer, it was heavily implied that things would be rotated out (eventually) and that Store Championships were going to come back, more like what we've seen in the past. Things move at a snails pace at FFG, but they DO seem to get around to a good number of the things we've clamored for & that they talk about: Gunboats, Clone Wars era factions, card packs, Epic play, points fixes, stand alone Damage Decks, etc.

Our collective memories are too short these days.

My point is, it may take them until Quarter 2 of 2020 or beyond, but they are listening & things are getting better. We just have to be patient.

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Also, prepare yourself.

Jar Jar is coming to the game eventually * and I for one welcome our new Gungan overlords.

*also from the livestream.

FFG just needs to make a decision, really.

If Extended is meant to be the main format, as is implied by them using it for... well, everything except the Hyperspace Trials, then they need to commit to it and get rid of Hyperspace.

If Hyperspace is meant to matter, then as @Kieransi says it needs to given more attention, be more tightly controlled, and used at more events.

Right now FFG are trying to have their cake and eat it, too, and it's just leaving both formats in limbo.

this game would be pretty ******* pointless without Arcs, so no to greater restrictions

plus there's the side effect of having to tell folks who bought cool stuff that they can't be used in certain tournaments because reasons

If rotations were to occur, they should be only for upgrades and for ships yet to be released in stand-alone expacs

This isn't Magic the Gathering, and you're kidding yourself if you think we have even a hundreth of a percent of the overlapping content and release rate of that game

I just fly Hyperspace legal lists in everything.

Nice, so the format you like should get all the attention and the format I like will basically cease to exist.

IMO it makes more sense to make Extended the primary format and Hyperspace the gimmick. Why? Because Hyperspace lists are both legal and potent in extended, so people that want to fly a hyperspace list are perfectly capable of doing so (and winning) at an extended tourney.

I think the most interesting but least likely solution is having extended and Hyperspace have zero overlap except for some of the core ships. If someone doesn't want to play against Nantex or Regedi, play extended, if you don't like Phantoms, you can play Hyperspace. The problem is that now that there are so many power creeped ships in hyperspace, you have to deal with them in both formats.

This would be even more interesting if they started rotating ships out of hyperspace, so for example the Guardians of the Republic pack would be legal in both formats, but maybe the ARC and Delta pack pilots (like Anakin) could rotate out and only be playable in extended and the N1 and BTLB would only be playable in hyperspace.