Hello everyone.

I've been trying to find out how shapechanging affects cybernetics and vice versa, there doesn't seem to be any rules covering this, and if so then I've missed it.
Logically it would make sense that it would become more difficult to shapechange, furthermore the cybernetics would remain completely unchanged, as it's only the biological parts of the body that changes.
It's also plausible to think that shapechanging might make them cease to function, especially because the shapechanger usually wouldn't have any technical or scientific knowledge about the cybernetic in question, where as such it's very likely that shapechanging would make it cease to function, quite possible permanently or until corrected.

So are there any rules covering this and if so, do you have a reference?

Thank you.

//Inc.

I've not seen rules on it but when one of my player's Clawdite characters received the Maimed critical, I did allow for the Triumph on the Medical fix to be used to repair it instead of swapping out to cybernetics.

IMO, cybernetic limbs wouldn't prevent shapeshifting but would not change unless purchased with (homeruled) options that would allow it to "transform"

Cybernetic implants would be harder to deal with (again, in my opinion. No rules in the book to go from). I did give my player a choice of having a cloned limb replacement rather than cybernetics. I figure the home planet of Clawdite has probably worked something out to assist amputees.

Going down that route, Clawdites (and other shapeshifters) may have created cybernetics that work with their shapeshifting ability. Just kick up the cost for them as they are probably 2-3 times more rare than standard cyber

There is the Cyber Disguise from Cyphers and Masks. If such a piece of cybernetics exists that can change a whole body, I would think a more limited form could be houseruled that only effects the replaced part.

3 hours ago, Split Light said:

There is the Cyber Disguise from Cyphers and Masks. If such a piece of cybernetics exists that can change a whole body, I would think a more limited form could be houseruled that only effects the replaced part.

This was better than my idea.

I didn't have a good answer really. Maybe the change could conceal the cybernetics, cover it somehow?

7 hours ago, Split Light said:

There is the Cyber Disguise from Cyphers and Masks. If such a piece of cybernetics exists that can change a whole body, I would think a more limited form could be houseruled that only effects the replaced part.

But this doesn't cover any specific official rules about how cybernetics is affected by shapechanging and vice versa, which is what I'm asking specifically.
Seemingly, no such rules actually exist.

If you're looking for an official rule, then sadly I think you're out of luck. That's a pretty niche issue and unlikely to see official coverage.

7 hours ago, Split Light said:

If you're looking for an official rule, then sadly I think you're out of luck. That's a pretty niche issue and unlikely to see official coverage.

That was what I thought, which is quite unfortunate.

What would be reasonable check if a character who have implanted cybernetics shapechanges, when;
- they have no technical and/or medical knowledge about cybernetics.
- they have more cybernetics.

I think in generally it would make sense that it would become increasingly more difficult the more cybernetics character has, or the more invasive the cybernetics are, where the less technical and/or medical the character has would further complicate it and it would increase the chance of it going horribly wrong. On the other hand, the more technical and/or medical knowledge the character has, the more negative dices with regards to increased difficulty due to cybernetics, can eliminated. I'm thinking down the lines of using difficulty dice or setback dice to reflect the increased difficulty.

Perhaps something down the lines of;

• Increases difficulty: +1 difficulty dice per 1 cybernetic implant OR +1 challenge dice per 1 major cybernetic implant.
• Decreases difficulty: -1 difficulty per 1 mechanics/medicine OR -1 challenge dice per 1 technical/medical knowledge.

I would upgrade the difficulty of the check / major cybernetics (limbs - which can go really wrong) and a setback for smaller ones (implants - which might only cause discomfort). Still, i wouldn't let the character change the cybernetic, so she/he has to come up with a way to conceal it.

On 9/25/2019 at 7:25 AM, Rimsen said:

I would upgrade the difficulty of the check / major cybernetics (limbs - which can go really wrong) and a setback for smaller ones (implants - which might only cause discomfort). Still, i wouldn't let the character change the cybernetic, so she/he has to come up with a way to conceal it.

I don't think that just upgrading the check would be sufficient, but I do agree with the cybernetic would not be changeable.
For example, after the clawdite has taken the needed amount of strain, it would normally just need to pass an average check, with what you suggest, cybernetics would essentially only make less of an impact on the actual roll.
However, I think it's reasonable to consider upping the strain cost, as it does become more strenous to shapechange with cybernetics complicating the matter, so perhaps +2 or 3 strain for every major cybernetic and +1 for every minor cybernetic. I think cybernetics implants should impose IF minor; 1 difficulty dice per 1 minor, IF major: 1 challenge dice per 1 major, IF prosthetic; 1 setback per 1.

Example a clawdite that wants to shapechange, and who has:
Brawn 2.
Resilience 2.
Knowledge(Cybertech) 2
1 major cybernetic implant.
2 minor cybernetic implants.

With your suggestion it would cost the normal strain and would have to pass a check with 1 difficulty + 1 challenge + 2 setback. This part of the check has the potential to score a maximum of 5 failures.
The player's part of the check, with 2 brawn and 2 resilience, it would have 2 profiency dice. This part of the check has the potential to score a maximum of 4 successes.
In conclusion, with 4 potential successes and 5 potential failures, there is only one more in favor of a fail. Furthermore, it's knowledge(cybertech) did not have an impact on the roll.

My suggestion, I said that mechanical and/or medicine skill, technical and/or medical knowledge could reduce the difficulty or the challenge, but I think it would be better that those were just added to the roll but only the proficiency dices.

With what I suggested it would cost the normal strain and would have to pass a check with 4 difficulty + 1 challenge, this part of the check has the potential to score a maximum of 10 failures.
The player's part of the check, with 2 brawn, 2 resilience and 2 knowledge (cybertech), it would have 4 profiency dice. This part of the check has the potential to score a maximum of 8 successes.
In conclusion, with 8 potential successes and 10 potential failures, there is only two more in favor of a fail. Furthermore, the knowledge(cybertech) is allowed to potentially impact the outcome of the check.

My golden rule is to make it as simple as possible. You can definitely add in everything, but it makes it more complicated.

In your example, i would add a single boost for having medical knowledge, but not more, definitely not per rank.

Also, you forget the effects of despairs and threats. If you increase the strain cost, your character will be in serious trouble. I am playing through a spy campaign with a clawdite, and she is always careful whether or not to use changling, because 10-11 strain doesn't let you use it free, especially if you have to fight.

Threats can be spent on strain as pain, or discomfort, and despair on this kind of checks can cause some major scenes, like one of the cyber limbs not working, etc. Just upping strain is boring narratively.

Plus to add, your math doesn't check out:

2 characteristics and 2+2 skills (even if i don't look at that you added 2 different skills, just to up the chances) is 2 yellow 2 green or 3 yellow if you give generously add an upgrade for each Knowledge rank (which is freakin overpowered)

Not to mention chances are not simply how much failures can be maximum. You are over complicating it: the number of normal dice gives you succes or fail has bigger chance, and boost/setback proef/chall dice are there for for adv/threat triumph/despair. They are marginally change the succes rate, much less drastic as adding another ability or difficulty die

Why not add X Difficulty and then reduce that added difficulty by ranks in Y skill?

On 9/27/2019 at 6:09 AM, Rimsen said:

My golden rule is to make it as simple as possible. You can definitely add in everything, but it makes it more complicated.

In your example, i would add a single boost for having medical knowledge, but not more, definitely not per rank.

Also, you forget the effects of despairs and threats. If you increase the strain cost, your character will be in serious trouble. I am playing through a spy campaign with a clawdite, and she is always careful whether or not to use changling, because 10-11 strain doesn't let you use it free, especially if you have to fight.

Threats can be spent on strain as pain, or discomfort, and despair on this kind of checks can cause some major scenes, like one of the cyber limbs not working, etc. Just upping strain is boring narratively.

Plus to add, your math doesn't check out:

2 characteristics and 2+2 skills (even if i don't look at that you added 2 different skills, just to up the chances) is 2 yellow 2 green or 3 yellow if you give generously add an upgrade for each Knowledge rank (which is freakin overpowered)

Not to mention chances are not simply how much failures can be maximum. You are over complicating it: the number of normal dice gives you succes or fail has bigger chance, and boost/setback proef/chall dice are there for for adv/threat triumph/despair. They are marginally change the succes rate, much less drastic as adding another ability or difficulty die

I'm not forgetting the effects of threat and dispair, they should definitely be there, as it's most certainly not risk free to attempt shapechanging with cybernetics, and in my opinion shouldn't be either.
Why think threat and dispair, especially dispair, is due to the nature one can fail, more importantly how bad it can actually go when attempting to shapechange while having cybernetics implanted.
The way cybernetics are implanted, means that they're connected specifically to tissue, muscles, nerves, etc. with specific sizes and properties - when you shapechange, you're not just resizing those that it's connected to, you might be rearranging them, but even if it's just a matter of "re-sizing" these, one is still running the risk that one might sever something the cybernetic implant is connected to, or that the cybernetic implant is disconnected and needs to be re-connected, and so forth. In my opinion, I don't think it should just be a matter of, if you succeed or not, because the shapechanger is doing something which has the potential to go horribly wrong due to the cybernetic implants.

I agree, that upping the strain cost would be problematic, and that suggestion was also more in the sense you wanted to make it easier to succeed at shapechanging with cybernetic implants, than it should be.
I don't see how my math don't work out, even when I'm actually mixing two skills;

Brawn (2): 2 Green
Resilience (2): Upgrades 2 green to 2 yellow
Sub-Total = 2 Yellow.
Knowlegde skill bonus: 2 yellow:
Total = 2 + 2 = 4 Yellow.

The attribute and proficiency dice are weighted slightly more in favor of success than difficulty and challenge dice are weighted towards failure. However as both are each others equivalent opposite, so I don't see the problem.

On 9/27/2019 at 4:29 PM, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Why not add X Difficulty and then reduce that added difficulty by ranks in Y skill?

What I initially suggested did that, but the problem with that is that you'll be assuming that in every situation, they would negate each other, which they wouldn't - both are variables.
Even though the attribute and skill number is a static value, but what they represent is not, hence why they can't just negate each other.

Here's my revised thoughts on it:

The issue with adding additional positive dice is that if someone adds 1 Difficulty die for cybernetics, they have a difficulty of Hard. Now, if that player has 2 Brawn and 1 Resilience, but 3 Intellect and 3 Knowledge (cybernetics) or whatever, they gain a substantial benefit from having added the cybernetic.

However, I can see an issue with what I proposed, in that it just takes the Skill into account and not the Characteristic.

For determining difficulty, I would suggest Upgrading (not increasing) the difficulty of the transformation with varying numbers based on the invasiveness of the cybernetic. So someone with cyberlegs might have 2 Upgrades (1 per leg), but if they added armor implants that would increase to 4 Upgrades (resulting in a pool of RRR). You can then reduce the upgrades (4) by ranks in the Skill OR the Characteristic, whichever is highest (to a minimum of 1?). So if you had an Intellect of 2 and 1 rank in the Skill, you would have only 2 Upgrades (resulting in a pool of RR) and if you had a Skill of 3, you would only have the 1 Upgrade (RP).

The reason for the minimum of one (which I am not wholly sold on) is that there is always a danger (Despair) to shape-shifting while in cybernetics and no matter how much you know, you can never negate that danger entirely.

What do you think?

8 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Here's my revised thoughts on it:

The issue with adding additional positive dice is that if someone adds 1 Difficulty die for cybernetics, they have a difficulty of Hard. Now, if that player has 2 Brawn and 1 Resilience, but 3 Intellect and 3 Knowledge (cybernetics) or whatever, they gain a substantial benefit from having added the cybernetic.

However, I can see an issue with what I proposed, in that it just takes the Skill into account and not the Characteristic.

For determining difficulty, I would suggest Upgrading (not increasing) the difficulty of the transformation with varying numbers based on the invasiveness of the cybernetic. So someone with cyberlegs might have 2 Upgrades (1 per leg), but if they added armor implants that would increase to 4 Upgrades (resulting in a pool of RRR). You can then reduce the upgrades (4) by ranks in the Skill OR the Characteristic, whichever is highest (to a minimum of 1?). So if you had an Intellect of 2 and 1 rank in the Skill, you would have only 2 Upgrades (resulting in a pool of RR) and if you had a Skill of 3, you would only have the 1 Upgrade (RP).

The reason for the minimum of one (which I am not wholly sold on) is that there is always a danger (Despair) to shape-shifting while in cybernetics and no matter how much you know, you can never negate that danger entirely.

What do you think?

The reason why I didn't add the attribute dice from the knowledge skill, simply due to the fact the knowledge skill is primarily there to potentially negate the negative potential from shapechanging with cybernetic implants, essentially offsetting the penalties. However there is one flaw inherent in this that I see, which is it doesn't matter how few and minor the cybernetic implants are, one would still get the full benefit of the successes one could roll from the added dice from knowledge, which could substantially increase the chances of success, with regards to however difficult the normal resilience check would be. So the only thing I can see that would make sense, is that one is only allowed to add the amount of proficiency dice from the knowledge skill as there have been added difficulty or challenge dice due to cybernetic implants. So for instance if 2 challenge dice had been added and one had knowledge of 3, then only 2 may be added to the dice pool.

However, there may be a simpler solution:
Shapechanging check for Clawdites is: An average resilience check = 2 Purple |||| Due to it being shapechanging with cybernetic implants, it becomes a hard check instead = 3 purple.
Then upgrade a minimum of 1 difficulty dice because of shapechanging with cybernetic implants, irregardless of how many or how invasive they are - this represents the dangerous nature of shapechaing with cybernetic implants.
For each cybernetic implant one has, 1 difficulty dice is added - the first cybernetic implant is already accounted for in the hard difficulty check. There is an exeption, prosthetic cybernetic implant only add a setback dice instead.
For every major invasive cybernetic implant one has, 1 difficulty dice is upgraded.
Knowledges and skill ranks in the afforementioned can either downgrade an upgrade (equivalent of negating an upgrade) of per 1 used or remove a difficulty dice down to a minimum of the default check for shapechanging with cybernetic implants - see above. It will do the downgrade and remove sequentially per dice, first; downgrade then remove. So down to a minimum of = 1 red and 2 purple.

Also, I think it might be reasonable to have dispair represent 1 wound per 1 dispair that remains from the check, which narratively represents the shapechanger taking internal damage caused by the cybernetic implants getting misplaced, severed tissue/blood vessels/etc. cybernetics malfunction (electrical damage), etc. There are lot of ways this could narratively be represented and explained.

Example - I re-use my example from above.

On 9/26/2019 at 9:53 PM, InfinityIncarnate said:

Brawn 2.
Resilience 2.
Knowledge(Cybertech) 2
1 major cybernetic implant.
2 minor cybernetic implants.

This would mean that first the shapechanging check becomes a hard check = 3 purple, but due to the risk involved one dice is upgraded, so the check becomes = 1 red and 2 purple.
This clawdite has THREE cybernetic implants in total, since 1 difficulty dice is already accounted for, another difficulty is added and upgrade, which brings it to = 2 red and 2 purple.
As the clawdite has Knowledge(Cybertech) 2, it can downgrade 2 dice, as the rule above is stated; downgrade first then remove, it becomes = 1 red and 2 purple.
Brawn 2 and resilience 2, becomes = 2 yellow.
So the total dicepool to be rolled would be = 2 yellow, 1 red and 2 purple.

As long as 1 success remains, the change is successful, however depending on the rest of what symbols that remains from the check, will affect the rest of the actual outcome.
Even despite it being a success, it's possible with this check, there would be a slight chance of taking internal damage, which I think is quite reasonable considering how dangerous it would be, to attempt to shapechange with something connected somehow, which the shapechanger has no control over what so ever, that is connected to something internally. So even with some knowledge of cybernetic implants, as these are not something the shapechanger has any control over, so the possibility for internal damage or cybernetic implant malfunction, disconnection, etc. or even outright damage to it, is most certainly possible.

Maybe down the lines of something like this:
1 dispair = 1 wound (ignores soak due to being internal)
1 threat: Discomfort - Add one setback dice to next action.
2 threat: Mechanical/Technical glitch - add one setback dice for the encounter/scene.
3 threat: Cybernetic implant malfuction/disconnected - disabled until a successful mechanics check to re-enable or make the the cybernetic implant function properly again.
4 threat: Cybernetic implant damaged - will function at 2 setback dice until successfully repaired.
5 threat: Cybernetic implant severely damaged - permanently disabled until successfully repaired

14 hours ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

Brawn (2): 2 Green
Resilience (2): Upgrades 2 green to 2 yellow
Sub-Total = 2 Yellow.
Knowlegde skill bonus: 2 yellow:
Total = 2 + 2 = 4 Yellow.

Adding 2 yellows for a tangential skill, jeez that's much. I'd argue even with upgrade (why would that knowledge be as big a factor as your inherent skill to shapeshift), but still it would only add 1 yellow, since upgrading 2 yellow twice gives you only 1 additional Y. Addig YY is 4 upgrades.

Just give him boosts if you want it so bad, but yout way his knowledge factors more as his shapshifting skills. That's nonsense

6 hours ago, Rimsen said:

Adding 2 yellows for a tangential skill, jeez that's much. I'd argue even with upgrade (why would that knowledge be as big a factor as your inherent skill to shapeshift), but still it would only add 1 yellow, since upgrading 2 yellow twice gives you only 1 additional Y. Addig YY is 4 upgrades.

Just give him boosts if you want it so bad, but yout way his knowledge factors more as his shapshifting skills. That's nonsense

The reasoning for adding them as yellow straight away, is for the potential to negate dispair with thriumphs, attribute dice don't have triumphs.
Furthermore, the reasoning behind adding a challenge dice to the default check, is to add what the risk attempting to shapechange with cybernetics implanted represents, which only can come from a dispair result.
If you notice above, I wrote for each dispair that remains after the result has been resolved, it would give 1 wound per 1 dispair, which would represent internal damage.

2 hours ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

The reasoning for adding them as yellow straight away, is for the potential to negate dispair with thriumphs, attribute dice don't have triumphs.
Furthermore, the reasoning behind adding a challenge dice to the default check, is to add what the risk attempting to shapechange with cybernetics implanted represents, which only can come from a dispair result.
If you notice above, I wrote for each dispair that remains after the result has been resolved, it would give 1 wound per 1 dispair, which would represent internal damage.

Triumph and Despair doesn't cancel each other out.

Also giving 1 wound for a despair is almost nothing, threats could allow that. Despair is easily worthy of a critical hit (similar to combat) or a disabled cybernetic for the scene

On 9/24/2019 at 8:01 PM, InfinityIncarnate said:

That was what I thought, which is quite unfortunate.

What would be reasonable check if a character who have implanted cybernetics shapechanges, when;
- they have no technical and/or medical knowledge about cybernetics.
- they have more cybernetics.

I think it shouldn't be any more difficult than it is to just simply adapt to the cybernetic limb in the first place. Remember Star Wars prosthetics are WAY beyond us. Able to feel pain, and function 100% just like a regular limb. For people who have had the cybernetic long enough, they probably don't even really think about it as being anything "other" than themselves. So for someone who shapechanges, I think it wouldn't make much difference honestly. At least not enough of a difference to warrant a negative dice mechanic for it. The limbs themselves inflict no such penalties to any kind of activity for any species that could possibly be needing the cybernetic, so the functionality is assumed to be the same no matter what species in the huge galaxy population, is using it. So I would say it would just be normal routine for them honestly. So I don't think there should be any penalty to the attempt to shapechange itself. HOWEVER, I do think it's reasonable, depending on the cybernetic in question, to say it would be harder for the person to pull of their sneaky thing, which is the assumed reason for the shapechange. A person who shape changed into a Wookiee, but still has a human looking prosthetic hand, would draw more attention I would think. However a cybernetic eye prosthetic? Well ok, it's a Wookiee with a cyber-eye, that shouldn't really cause any issue out of the ordinary that is.

So, no penalty to shape change, possible penalty to skullduggery/social checks relying on the shapechange for trickery.

On 9/30/2019 at 10:40 PM, KungFuFerret said:

I think it shouldn't be any more difficult than it is to just simply adapt to the cybernetic limb in the first place. Remember Star Wars prosthetics are WAY beyond us. Able to feel pain, and function 100% just like a regular limb. For people who have had the cybernetic long enough, they probably don't even really think about it as being anything "other" than themselves. So for someone who shapechanges, I think it wouldn't make much difference honestly. At least not enough of a difference to warrant a negative dice mechanic for it. The limbs themselves inflict no such penalties to any kind of activity for any species that could possibly be needing the cybernetic, so the functionality is assumed to be the same no matter what species in the huge galaxy population, is using it. So I would say it would just be normal routine for them honestly. So I don't think there should be any penalty to the attempt to shapechange itself. HOWEVER, I do think it's reasonable, depending on the cybernetic in question, to say it would be harder for the person to pull of their sneaky thing, which is the assumed reason for the shapechange. A person who shape changed into a Wookiee, but still has a human looking prosthetic hand, would draw more attention I would think. However a cybernetic eye prosthetic? Well ok, it's a Wookiee with a cyber-eye, that shouldn't really cause any issue out of the ordinary that is.

So, no penalty to shape change, possible penalty to skullduggery/social checks relying on the shapechange for trickery.

That may be so that they are more advanced, but they're still BEYOND the shapeshifters control, they don't have in regards to shapechanging any control over the prosthetic limb or any other cybernetic implant for that matter.
Whether or not someone who's had a prostethic limb or cybernetics implant for a long time thinks it's just a part of them, doesn't change the fact that biologically they're artificial, not normally part of them. I don't want to incur penalty dice for the prosthetic limbs or cybernetic implants intended function - ONLY with regards to shapechanging because they don't have any control over how the prostethic limbs or cybernetic implants are CONNECTED to their body internally, and because of this the check should be more difficult, and obviously the more they have connectred the more difficult it would be to shapechange WITHOUT it resulting in it detrimentally impacting the character.

1 hour ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

That may be so that they are more advanced, but they're still BEYOND the shapeshifters control, they don't have in regards to shapechanging any control over the prosthetic limb or any other cybernetic implant for that matter.
Whether or not someone who's had a prostethic limb or cybernetics implant for a long time thinks it's just a part of them, doesn't change the fact that biologically they're artificial, not normally part of them. I don't want to incur penalty dice for the prosthetic limbs or cybernetic implants intended function - ONLY with regards to shapechanging because they don't have any control over how the prostethic limbs or cybernetic implants are CONNECTED to their body internally, and because of this the check should be more difficult, and obviously the more they have connectred the more difficult it would be to shapechange WITHOUT it resulting in it detrimentally impacting the character.

I think you are adding layers of difficulty for something that is very often just a cosmetic thing, and making the game unnecessarily complicated for no real game benefit. This doesn't add anything to the game, other than more number tracking, and dice rolling, for the sake of number tracking and dice rolling. People with cybernetics are already subject to a penalty that non-cybers don't have, and that's susceptibility to Ion damage. So now they also have to worry about the cybernetics just causing them straight up damage if they do their racial ability of shapechange, and also worry about being shot and shut down? Sorry but I just don't see how this is at all fun, or an enrichment to the gaming experience. It's just more crunch and crap, all to offer up another mechanic to the altar of "realism", which is something this NARRATIVE game system doesn't really worry about that much, on purpose.

2 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

I think you are adding layers of difficulty for something that is very often just a cosmetic thing, and making the game unnecessarily complicated for no real game benefit. This doesn't add anything to the game, other than more number tracking, and dice rolling, for the sake of number tracking and dice rolling. People with cybernetics are already subject to a penalty that non-cybers don't have, and that's susceptibility to Ion damage. So now they also have to worry about the cybernetics just causing them straight up damage if they do their racial ability of shapechange, and also worry about being shot and shut down? Sorry but I just don't see how this is at all fun, or an enrichment to the gaming experience. It's just more crunch and crap, all to offer up another mechanic to the altar of "realism", which is something this NARRATIVE game system doesn't really worry about that much, on purpose.

Prothetic limbs adds both cosmetics and function, just not any new functions. However cybernetic implants on the other hand, does very much so add NEW functions and thus new benefits.
Furthermore, this would only be relevant for shapechangers. It would only cause them damage IF they trigger it, not straight up damage just from shapechanging while having cybernetic implants or prosthetics installed.
You seem to forget that shapechangers already have a benefit that most don't have - the ability to shapechange, installing cybernetic implants and prothetics should come at a sacrifice in relation to shapechanging.
Just because something can impact a character negatively, doesn't mean it's a negative narrative impact, in fact I'd say it impacts the narrative positively even if it impacts the character negatively, because this will reflect narratively cybernetics implants and prothetics interferes with shapechanging - it's not all just a bunch of numbers and stuff, it all carries a meaning. In my opinion, it would enrich the gaming experience, but then again some people only view the bad stuff that happens in game, as only bad.

4 hours ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

You seem to forget that shapechangers already have a benefit that most don't have - the ability to shapechange, installing cybernetic implants and prothetics should come at a sacrifice in relation to shapechanging.

I'm well aware they have an ability other people have, that is a very silly comment to make to think that isn't something a person would be aware of. And who says installing cybernetics and implants and the like should come at a sacrifice? Where is that written? And besides, YOU seem to have forgotten that I already introduced a negative to this incredibly rare situation you feel needs it's own mechanic, in that the shapechanging would suffer penalties to any skill checks to try and trick someone they are someone else. Since that is the primary reason shapechangers change shape, to trick people into thinking they are someone else. And having a part of you that doesn't change, would be a potential problem. Which I already stated.

4 hours ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

Just because something can impact a character negatively, doesn't mean it's a negative narrative impact, in fact I'd say it impacts the narrative positively even if it impacts the character negatively, because this will reflect narratively cybernetics implants and prothetics interferes with shapechanging

But again, there is nothing in the franchise that suggests having prosthetics/cybernetics interferes with shapechanging in the way you say. You are making a statement that is simply your opinion on how something should operate, and declaring it as fact. It's not.

4 hours ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

- it's not all just a bunch of numbers and stuff, it all carries a meaning. In my opinion, it would enrich the gaming experience,

I disagree. I think it will simply add an annoying extra layer of mechanics to a game that tries to minimize that stuff. It's why they don't have you track ammo for most weapons, and just hand wave it away as a detail that isn't worth bothering with. It's why they don't bother with precise distance tracking, and just hand wave it to broad bands of distance, and just let you move within that range however you see fit without worrying about tracking squares of movement.

5 hours ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

but then again some people only view the bad stuff that happens in game, as only bad.

Cute, yes because I don't like one mechanic that I see having no narrative benefit, I must dislike all bad things that can happen in a game. Clearly your reasoning is impeccable and spot on.

Now you say it's in your opinion that it will improve your game, and that's fine. You can have whatever opinion you like, I won't argue an opinion. I will however state my own on the matter, and I suspect that whatever player at your table, who is apparently the impetus for this topic at all, probably won't like the extra layer of failure he will exclusively have to deal with, that nobody else does, either.

2 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

And who says installing cybernetics and implants and the like should come at a sacrifice? Where is that written? And besides, YOU seem to have forgotten that I already introduced a negative to this incredibly rare situation you feel needs it's own mechanic, in that the shapechanging would suffer penalties to any skill checks to try and trick someone they are someone else. Since that is the primary reason shapechangers change shape, to trick people into thinking they are someone else. And having a part of you that doesn't change, would be a potential problem. Which I already stated.

It's not written anywhere rules-wise, this is a completely grey area how it would affect shapechanging, but using a bit of common sense it should be fairly obvious why prothetics limbs and cybernetic implants would interfere with shapechanging. There is nothing that suggests that it shouldn't be more difficult, to the contrary there is when you look at the lore. First of all, it's important to establish that all cybernetic implants mainly either falls into the category of being a replacement or an enhancement, furthermore it's equally important to acknowledge that a cybernetic implant is an artificial biomechanical device that is connected with wires and other things with the body.

Replacements : Replacements were prosthetic or artificial units intended to replace lost limbs and damaged organs. Common replacements provided no benefits other than duplicating the essential functions of their biological counterparts, and they presented little strain on the beneficiary's overall well-being. In appearance, a cybernetic replacement could be recognizably artificial or virtually indistinguishable from the real thing.

Enhancements : Enhancements bestowed new abilities or improved the recipient in some fashion. Enhancements included skeletal reinforcement, subcutaneous communications hardware, and weapon mounts. Some enhancements had visible external components, while others were hidden beneath the skin. Enhancements put more of a drain on the body's resources, and recipients frequently suffered debilitating physical or mental side effects.

You say that I want shapechanging to suffer penalties to any skill check when trying to trick others, which is quite far from correct - I want only the shapechanging action to be affected when the shapechanger in question has cybernetic implants and tries to shapechange - What else the character does to try do when attempting to trick others, which isn't shapechanging is irrelevant, like why they shapechange is irrelevant.

For those willing to make the sacrifice of flesh and expense, the body could be "upgraded" to allow for additional skills and abilities. Some involved modifying the limbs and internal systems of the potential patient. As with everything in the galaxy, this came at a potential price, in credits and in the potential loss of self.

3 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

But again, there is nothing in the franchise that suggests having prosthetics/cybernetics interferes with shapechanging in the way you say. You are making a statement that is simply your opinion on how something should operate, and declaring it as fact. It's not.

However, I did not declare it as fact that having prostethics/cybernetics interferes with shapechanging in the way you said I said it interferes - I declared as fact that " it impacts the narrative positively even if it impacts the character negatively, because this will reflect narratively cybernetics implants and prothetics interferes with shapechanging" .

3 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

I disagree. I think it will simply add an annoying extra layer of mechanics to a game that tries to minimize that stuff. It's why they don't have you track ammo for most weapons, and just hand wave it away as a detail that isn't worth bothering with. It's why they don't bother with precise distance tracking, and just hand wave it to broad bands of distance, and just let you move within that range however you see fit without worrying about tracking squares of movement.

What I'm suggesting doesn't have anything to do with bothersome minute tracking. It's completely reasonable that it complicates the shapechanging process and there is a serious risk in attempting to shapechange with cybernetic implants or prostethic limbs, as the character has no control over how and what it's connected to in the body.

3 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

Cute, yes because I don't like one mechanic that I see having no narrative benefit, I must dislike all bad things that can happen in a game. Clearly your reasoning is impeccable and spot on.

Now you say it's in your opinion that it will improve your game, and that's fine. You can have whatever opinion you like, I won't argue an opinion. I will however state my own on the matter, and I suspect that whatever player at your table, who is apparently the impetus for this topic at all, probably won't like the extra layer of failure he will exclusively have to deal with, that nobody else does, either.

What you quoted there wasn't specifically aimed at you, but was meant in general. What was meant with that, is that just because something bad happens in the game, doesn't mean it's bad for the narrative and the game. It's an ongoing story being told, and while players won't always like what happens with their characters, but that doesn't mean that it can't be fun and entertaining.

Just because you don't see the narrative benefit, doesn't mean there isn't one.
One of the narrative benefits I see this mechanic have, is that it narratively can reflect cybernetic implants and prostethic limbs, replacements and enhancements, sometimes can interfere with shapechanging, but also how a shapechanger with sufficient insights about cybernetics could stop it from interfering.