So I hear a lot of excited talk about good ol' Chop and his ability to give Jedi Focus and Evade to make them super durable. This has me a little confused though:

Chopper resolves after you execute a maneuver. If we go by abilities like Fine-Tuned Controls: they let Jedi barrel roll of asteroids because they are specifically not part of the perform action-step. So I always thought this trigger is one step before performing actions. Since Chopper gives you a red evade action, wouldn't that mean that you are now stressed, thus preventing you from taking your normal action? What did I miss?

Thanks in advance for any clarification!

Anakin can use his ability to remove the stress, FTC can be used before Chopper's stress, but mostly, Jedi get free focus from the Force.

Chopper does prevent your normal Perform Action Step, assuming you don't remove the stress somehow.

C1-10P and Fine-Tuned Controls while not the same trigger (Chop is just "execute" while Delta is fully execute) they still occur at the same time. If Anakin can do FTC Anakin can do Chop though not necessarily vice-versa as an overlap would stop FTC but not Chop.

As the controlling player you can do them in any order and Chop does not prevent FTC from being added to the Queue. FTC for a boost or barrel roll, then spend a charge on Chop and take a stress for an evade token.

I think that Anakin can not use his ability to remove the stress from Chop as that stress would come after Anakin's chance to put his remove stress ability into the queue.

Chop also specifically allows the evade action while stressed.

Normally a Delta Jedi would need to spend a force for an evade. As noted Chop gives them the evade while letting them keep their force tokens for dice mods.

6 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

C1-10P and Fine-Tuned Controls while not the same trigger (Chop is just "execute" while Delta is fully execute) they still occur at the same time. If Anakin can do FTC Anakin can do Chop though not necessarily vice-versa as an overlap would stop FTC but not Chop.

As the controlling player you can do them in any order and Chop does not prevent FTC from being added to the Queue. FTC for a boost or barrel roll, then spend a charge on Chop and take a stress for an evade token.

I think that Anakin can not use his ability to remove the stress from Chop as that stress would come after Anakin's chance to put his remove stress ability into the queue.

Chop also specifically allows the evade action while stressed.

Normally a Delta Jedi would need to spend a force for an evade. As noted Chop gives them the evade while letting them keep their force tokens for dice mods.

I guess he couldn't actually, true.

Anakin has to actually be stressed before he puts his ability into the queue, and chopper's stress comes along later.

Man that card is less good than I thoguht, anakin is basically the only good use case without paying 4 more points for Debris Gambit.

Because C1-0P doesn't say "fully execute", he lets you Evade even if you bump or cross a non- Debris Obstacle. So he's pretty good on the Naboo Starfghter if you have taken Juke to ensure you have the Evade token. Then you become a Jam machine

18 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

I guess he couldn't actually, true.

Anakin has to actually be stressed before he puts his ability into the queue, and chopper's stress comes along later.

Man that card is less good than I thoguht, anakin is basically the only good use case without paying 4 more points for Debris Gambit.

Anakin does not have to be stressed to put his pilot ability in the queue ("After you fully execute a maneuver, if there is an enemy ship in your [front arc] at range 0-1 or in your [bullseye arc]..."). The only requirement is that you have fully executed a maneuver. So if you order the abilities (which all go in the queue at the same time) so that Anakin's pilot ability resolves after Chopper, and you meet the requirements to use Anakin after gaining the evade and the stress, you can spend the force to clear the stress.

22 minutes ago, FranquesEnbiens said:

Anakin does not have to be stressed to put his pilot ability in the queue ("After you fully execute a maneuver, if there is an enemy ship in your [front arc] at range 0-1 or in your [bullseye arc]..."). The only requirement is that you have fully executed a maneuver. So if you order the abilities (which all go in the queue at the same time) so that Anakin's pilot ability resolves after Chopper, and you meet the requirements to use Anakin after gaining the evade and the stress, you can spend the force to clear the stress.

I suspect a lot of people would argue, you cannot remove a stress you don't have, so being stressed is an implied precondition of his ability in the first place.

God the last rules reference update is a mess.

13 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

I suspect a lot of people would argue, you cannot remove a stress you don't have, so being stressed is an implied precondition of his ability in the first place.

I really hope FFG is not thinking like those people. Having to pre-resolve every ability in order to determine if you can re-resolve the ability at a later point just seems like a nightmare to manage while I am trying to play a game.

25 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

I suspect a lot of people would argue, you cannot remove a stress you don't have, so being stressed is an implied precondition of his ability in the first place.

God the last rules reference update is a mess.

I would be one of those people.

14 minutes ago, joeshmoe554 said:

I really hope FFG is not thinking like those people. Having to pre-resolve every ability in order to determine if you can re-resolve the ability at a later point just seems like a nightmare to manage while I am trying to play a game.

But you are "pre-resolving" the ability. YOu don't have a stress but you're going to get a stress so you're going to remove the stress before you get it.

The change of meeting the condition first before putting stuff in queue is good. This change to the ability queue seems like specifically an Anakin "nerf." They don't want you re-positioning into use of the stress removal. I think some of these favorable orderings are/were making things a bit better than they are supposed to be. And they have always been recipe for making things feel abusive.

But again, nowhere does it say that you have to be stressed as a requirement to add the ability to the queue.

If you look at the card and say "did I do the thing to add this to the queue?" and you can say "Yes," then you add it. Then it's resolved in the order it comes up in the queue. Whether it does anything at that point or not depends on if you meet the requirements when it attempts to resolve and you decide to use it.

Compare it to something like Ensnare ( At the end of the Activation Phase, if you are tractored, you may choose 1 ship in your [mobile] arc at range 0-1. ). The requirement is that you have to be tractored, so if not, you can't add it to the queue (as explained in the RRG: If an ability’s requirements are not met, it cannot be added to the ability queue. For example, at the start of the Engagement Phase, if a ship has an ability that requires it to be tractored, but that ship is not tractored, that ability cannot be added to the queue. The ship cannot add the ability to the queue even if another ability also added to the queue at the start of the Engagement Phase would cause that ship to become tractored upon its resolution.)

It gets murky if we start using implied requirements rather than what it actually says on the card.

It's actually pretty simple if you look at it this way (let's say I have Anakin with Chopper, which I tried out at an HST this past weekend):

I fully execute a maneuver and land at range one of a ship with Anakin. What are the things I can add to the queue at this moment (I am assuming that I am the only one triggering abilities here)? Fine-Tuned Controls, Anakin's ability, and Chopper (all trigger off executing a maneuver). I add FTC, Chopper, Anakin in that order. I try resolve FTC to barrel roll, and I either succeed or fail. I resolve Chopper to get the Evade. I try to resolve Anakin and I have a stress to remove, great! I choose to spend a force to remove the stress. Now I've finished my Execute Maneuver step, on to Perform Action.

At no point does the wording "if you are stressed" appear in Anakin's ability.

39 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

I would be one of those people.

But you are "pre-resolving" the ability. YOu don't have a stress but you're going to get a stress so you're going to remove the stress before you get it.

The change of meeting the condition first before putting stuff in queue is good. This change to the ability queue seems like specifically an Anakin "nerf." They don't want you re-positioning into use of the stress removal. I think some of these favorable orderings are/were making things a bit better than they are supposed to be. And they have always been recipe for making things feel abusive.

Honest question, not being sarcastic: Would you also argue that Old Teroch's ability requires that at the start of Engagement, something has to be in range AND HAVE a focus token for you to even add his ability to the queue? Is having a focus for him to remove an "implied requirement" since you can't remove a token they don't have?

8 minutes ago, FranquesEnbiens said:

Honest question, not being sarcastic: Would you also argue that Old Teroch's ability requires that at the start of Engagement, something has to be in range AND HAVE a focus token for you to even add his ability to the queue? Is having a focus for him to remove an "implied requirement" since you can't remove a token they don't have?

You can remove all your tokens, even if you have no tokens, though.

(Albeit, that is a huge can of worms)

For a good and thorough analysis of the whole thing (if you missed this from a couple pages ago in the Krayt thread), I'd point you to the work that @Brunas has done researching the cards that have requirements and how they work with the ability queue:

Anyways, some ship ability examples. First, the only other definition/requirement of "requirement" in the rules is here:

Since it's truncated, we don't get a real answer for what a requirement is.

So, let's look at what a requirement might be, with a simple card like Fearless.

Fearless: While you perform a primary <front arc> attack, if the attack range is 1 and you are in the defender’s <front arc> , you may change 1 of your results to a <hit> result.

Clauses:

A B C

While (you perform a primary <front arc> attack), if (the attack range is 1 and you are in the defender’s <front arc>), you may (change 1 of your results to a <hit> result.)

While A, if B, then do C

All abilities follow this format - Timing, condition, and effect. Sometimes there is no condition - for example:

A C

Fine-tuned Controls: After (you fully execute a maneuver), you may (spend 1 <force> to perform a <boost> or <roll> action).

After A, then C

For Teroch, that looks like this:

A C

Teroch: At (the start of the Engagement Phase), you may (choose 1 enemy ship at range 1. If you do and you are in its <front arc>, it removes all of its green tokens).

Here again, we only have A and C - no requirement that must be true

For Anakin, who was effected by the change:

A B C

Anakin: After (you fully execute a maneuver), if (there is an enemy ship in your <front arc> at range 0-1 or in your <bullseye arc>,) you may (spend 1 <force> to remove 1 stress token).

Again, After A, if B, then C. For example, Anakin can add his ability to the queue if he has a ship in bullseye or in front arc at r1, but is not stressed. It wouldn't do anything (not even cost a force), but it's a thing you could do. Similarly, Teroch can be added to the ability queue with nothing around him - it just does nothing (unless something makes it's way to him by the time he resolves).

I've been through about 200 cards, including all of them with this phrasing (conditional if clauses), and this has held true for all of them.

Rule Ref page 2

Quote

Paying Costs

A ship can pay a cost for an effect only if the effect can be resolved.

You have to meet all the conditions for putting an ability or effect into the queue per page 3 Rules Ref:

Quote

• If an ability’s requirements are not met, it cannot be added to the ability queue.

If Anakin does not have a stress how can he pay the force token to remove a stress token? He can not resolve the ability to remove stress. He can not pay the cost. Anakin does not meet all the requirements for the ability to be put in the queue.

Anakin is the epitome of "pre-resolving" effects. That's what the change above is about. Anakin and the other Delta Jedi are exactly who this change in the queue are aimed at. It is a non-points "nerf" of the Jedi.

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46 minutes ago, FranquesEnbiens said:

Honest question, not being sarcastic: Would you also argue that Old Teroch's ability requires that at the start of Engagement, something has to be in range AND HAVE a focus token for you to even add his ability to the queue? Is having a focus for him to remove an "implied requirement" since you can't remove a token they don't have?

I'm pretty sure I have argued against several things like Ketsu pilot's Tractor resolution/Teroch and even against FTC-ing into arc before the recent change. I didn't play it that way because it wasn't accepted that way. (Also no one uses Ketsu in my group.)

With the new update I absolutely will/do argue that Teroch needs a target with tokens for that to go into the queue. A Ketsu Pilot can not tractor first and then allow Teroch to strip tokens. Of course it begs the question of what to do if Teroch's target gets tractored out of his abilities range. I'd go with "Fizzle" as the valid target is gone. And it begs the question of if when Teroch's ability comes to resolve what to do if what was originally one target choice becomes two target choices. But I think no target with green tokens, no putting Teroch's ability into the queue. (And do not start with any sort of ship balancing or faction balancing considerations. Some ships should not get to read the rules one way and some ships another without properly worded abilities. We don't just get to "know" how it works. That his sub-forum exists at all is testament to that.)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

And you bring up something I was mentioning in another post. Some of these questions we're arguing aren't supposed to be questions. Like the one on Snap Shot being usable in engagement. Shouldn't be a question really of using this instead of your primary right? Why would you do that? So FFG probably felt they could be a little sloppy since it is your funeral if you're going to this instead of a regular primary. And it wouldn't be if FFG had remembered that some ships that can take it might otherwise miss an attack in the engagement phase. Now its a big deal. Same with Teroch.

I imagine someone in the rules department, "Teroch. No target. No tokens. What's it matter? This is not affected by our queue change so we don't need to clarify this." I was ignorant of the Ketsu Pilot and Teroch combo because I would not and did not (as I was looking to try and get Shadowcaster on the table) as my thinking is there is no combo here.

Frankly, it seems like this queue change despite the questions it raised was quite needed. Folks seem to have been seriously twisting some stuff into other than what the authors intended. Everybody likes 2nd Ed. but they haven't given up on squeezing as much combo-wing into it as they can.

So if a person has 5 Nantex fighters with Ensnare, then that person will have to measure for enemy ships in range and in arc on all 5 ships in order to add the abilities to the queue so they can then measure range and arc again while resolving those abilities later?

Does Dengar need to measure range and arc and check that he has charges on his Proton Torpedoes and that he has a lock on his opponent so his ability can enter the queue, so he can measure range, and arc, and attack requirements again later while resolving his ability?

Having to resolve every ability in the game twice (once to trigger the ability and once to actually resolve the ability) just sounds like a massive headache for gameplay and I really hope that the powers that be won't clarify an "ability's requirement" to mean that.

The trigger requirement, " if you are tractored ", should be what prevent's Ensnare from entering the queue, not the fact that you need a tractor token in order to transfer a tractor token or that you need a ship at range 0-1 in your .

I honestly don't know what the intention is. Before the most recent RR I would have said no, they don't.

Now?

FFG is bad at this so I don't know.

53 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

Anakin and the other Delta Jedi are exactly who this change in the queue are aimed at. It is a non-points "nerf" of the Jedi.

If they were what the FAQ entry aimed at, their abilities would be given as the only example in the FAQ, not Nantex. We can only asses that the ruling was made to stop multi-nantex juggling of tractor tokens. Have some modesty not to put your own intentions in Dev's mouth just because you felt like XYZ deserved a "nerf".

I call for some reason in reading the new FAQ. Granted it is messed up, still, if the intention was that the ability must be able to resolve in order to be placed in the queue, it probably would've been written that it has to be able to resolve. Having that only requirements must be met beforehand it would be reasonable to assume there's only that certain part of the ability that has to be checked that we'll call requirements.

Edit: I question whether or not having a stress token is required to remove 1 stress token. Per RR: Additionally, a ship removes one stress token while it executes a blue maneuver. Arguing that a non-stressed ship cannot execute a blue manouvre would obviously be ridiculous. Therefore, the game rules allow removing a single stress token from a ship without any stress tokens.

24 minutes ago, joeshmoe554 said:

So if a person has 5 Nantex fighters with Ensnare, then that person will have to measure for enemy ships in range and in arc on all 5 ships in order to add the abilities to the queue so they can then measure range and arc again while resolving those abilities later?

I think that each of those fighters should have to choose one target that meets the requirements at the end of the activation phase. Then the controlling player states 1st in, 2nd in, and so on. Then you start resolving. The original target is the ship that gets "ensnared" unless it gets moved out of range or is destroyed. If the original target is not eligible by the time they get to any particular ship in the line that ship gets stuck with its token.

33 minutes ago, joeshmoe554 said:

Does Dengar need to measure range and arc and check that he has charges on his Proton Torpedoes and that he has a lock on his opponent so his ability can enter the queue, so he can measure range, and arc, and attack requirements again later while resolving his ability?

There are no other abilities that can enter the queue on "After you defend" when the antecedent of "you" is Dengar. You're being disingenuous. Dengar is not changed by this ability queue change.

38 minutes ago, joeshmoe554 said:

The trigger requirement, " if you are tractored ", should be what prevent's Ensnare from entering the queue, not the fact that you need a tractor token in order to transfer a tractor token or that you need a ship at range 0-1 in your .

You're arguing that meeting the trigger should be the only requirement. I think that if you have something that does something to a target having a target is the requirement.

42 minutes ago, joeshmoe554 said:

Having to resolve every ability in the game twice (once to trigger the ability and once to actually resolve the ability) just sounds like a massive headache for gameplay and I really hope that the powers that be won't clarify an "ability's requirement" to mean that.

It might be too much trouble to make sure it's being done right?

-------------------------------------------------------

11 minutes ago, Ryfterek said:

If they were what the FAQ entry aimed at, their abilities would be given as the only example in the FAQ, not Nantex. We can only asses that the ruling was made to stop multi-nantex juggling of tractor tokens. Have some modesty not to put your own intentions in Dev's mouth just because you felt like XYZ deserved a "nerf".

Fair enough. Though I find myself compelled to ask if your are denying that the change to the queue is a "nerf" to Anakin? Do you think there would have been a meltdown of epic proportions if they had flat out said they wanted to "nerf" Anakin. (Which I don't think deserves a "nerf" so much as I was never quite sure FTC-ing into ARC to resolve the stress removal ability worked in the first place.)

This update was very sloppy so I do acknowledge the possibility anything affected other than the Nantex is an accident. They do have back to back entries that a number of folks myself included seem contradictory regarding spending force tokens. So...

4 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

Though I find myself compelled to ask if your are denying that the change to the queue is a "nerf" to Anakin?

No. What I call for is a sense of reason in approaching this RR update. Just because some of the Wonderboy's gimmicks have unquestionably been nerfed doesn't mean the intention was not to let this second to most expensive Ace in the game (ex aequo or most expensive if using either of the Delta's configurations) have some sort of a combo potential.

Again, FFG is really stretching any manner of trust I've got in their rules writing, yet - Ensnare has the same exact structure as Anakin's ability:

[Trigger], if [straight-out requirement] you may [conditional effect].

If they were already using the example of Ensnare, would they really, really cut the example short not to include the further "requirements"?

The example is obviously based on Ensnared and yet the FAQ entry only relates to ship being tractored or not, and does not mention a thing about having a ship in arc available for selection during resolution. Do you reckon the devs were half a sentence close to making their own example representation of their own intentions and they they decided not to make it represent them?

2 hours ago, Frimmel said:

Rule Ref page 2

Quote

Paying Costs

A ship can pay a cost for an effect only if the effect can be resolved.

You have to meet all the conditions for putting an ability or effect into the queue per page 3 Rules Ref:

Quote

• If an ability’s requirements are not met, it cannot be added to the ability queue.

If Anakin does not have a stress how can he pay the force token to remove a stress token? He can not resolve the ability to remove stress. He can not pay the cost. Anakin does not meet all the requirements for the ability to be put in the queue.

Anakin is the epitome of "pre-resolving" effects. That's what the change above is about. Anakin and the other Delta Jedi are exactly who this change in the queue are aimed at. It is a non-points "nerf" of the Jedi.

RRG Page 2: "ABILITIES: Some of the text on condition, damage, ship, and upgrade cards describe abilities. These abilities consist of a timing and an effect." (bolding mine)

A cost is not part of an ability, and being able to pay a cost or not has no bearing on whether you are allowed to place it in the queue.

As you said, a cost is something that is tied to an effect .

2 hours ago, Frimmel said:

If Anakin does not have a stress how can he pay the force token to remove a stress token? He can not resolve the ability to remove stress. He can not pay the cost. Anakin does not meet all the requirements for the ability to be put in the queue.

He can't. When you would resolve the ability, you would not be able to remove a stress that doesn't exist, therefore you can't pay the cost. Being able to resolve an ability has no bearing on whether it can enter the queue.

Look at the examples in the RRG (bolding mine):

Example 1: Jake Farrell activates and performs a [barrel roll] action. At this point, both his ship and pilot ability trigger ( the requirements/conditions are that he did a boost/roll action, and did an action. Note that for his pilot ability, it does not say "he performs a barrel roll action with a friendly ship at range 0-1 ) . He chooses the order to add them to the ability queue, adding his pilot ability first, then his ship ability. While resolving his pilot ability, he can choose a friendly ship at range 0–1. He chooses himself, and then performs a [focus] action ( although Jake does meet the requirement as he is a friendly ship, he chooses the friendly ship when it resolves) .

This triggers his ship ability again. Now he adds the second instance of his ship ability in front of the first instance of his ship ability. While he resolves his ship ability, he performs a red [boost] action. This triggers his pilot ability and his ship ability again. He chooses to add his pilot ability first, then his ship ability. While resolving his pilot ability again, he chooses a friendly Phoenix Squadron Pilot (A-wing) at range 1. The other A-wing performs a focus action and its ship ability triggers. This is added to the front of the ability queue. Phoenix Squadron Pilot resolves its ship ability and performs a red [boost] action. The only abilities remaining in the ability queue are two instances of Jake Farrell’s ship ability. Since he is stressed, he cannot perform an action so neither ability has an effect and the ability queue empties (the ability queue has triggered abilities in it that are unable to be resolved, so that is a thing that can happen. Also, again, this separates the effect from adding the ability to the queue) .

There is nothing in this that states that Jake has to be able to resolve his ability to add it to the queue. For example, it doesn't say "While he resolves his ship ability, he performs a red [boost] action. Jake will be unable to resolve his ability on himself when resolving the queue, but checks for other friendly ships at range 0-1, and if there is one, he triggers his pilot ability and his ship ability again. He chooses to add his pilot ability first, then his ship ability."

If the Phoenix Squadron Pilot turned out to be not at range 1, would Jake be unable to add his ability to the queue? Or would it do what the example says and just have no effect?

It's similar in the second example. Although there is a valid target, the example doesn't state that Old Teroch checks for anything when adding his ability to the queue.

The real crux of this is that when you say, "Anakin is the epitome of 'pre-resolving' effects," that's a problematic notion. Pre-resolving is not a thing you can do. The only thing you can do prior to resolving the entire ability queue is check for triggers and add things to it as specified. If abilities have a timing and an effect , and the effect is what happens when you resolve it, the timing is what we are looking at when adding them to the queue. So all the game instructs you to do is check the timing and add the ability as long as you can comply with any "if" conditionals as they relate to the timing.

Ensnare:

Timing: at the end of activation

Conditional: "if you are tractored"

Is it the end of activation? Am I tractored? If yes, add Ensnare to the queue. If not, don't put it in the queue. Now resolve the queue.

Anakin:

Timing: after you fully execute a maneuver

Conditional: if there is an enemy ship in your [front arc] at range 0-1 or in your bullseye arc

Did I execute a maneuver without bumping? Is there an enemy ship there? If yes, add Anakin ability to queue. If not, don't add it. Resolve the queue.

Teroch:

Timing: start of the engagement phase

Conditional: none

Is it the start of engagement? Add the ability to the queue. Resolve the queue.

Jake:

Timing: after you perform a boost or barrel roll

Conditional: none

Did I do a boost or roll? If so, add my ability to the queue. Did I not? Don't add it. Resolve the queue.

Odd Ball:

Timing: after you fully execute a red maneuver or perform a red action

Conditional: if there is an enemy ship in your bullseye arc

Is it after I did one of those things? If yes, is there an enemy ship there? If so, add it to the queue. If not, don't add it. Resolve the queue.

Pinpoint Tractor Array:

Timing: after you execute a maneuver

Conditional: none

Did I just execute a maneuver? Add the ability to the queue. Resolve the queue.

6 hours ago, Marev said:

So I hear a lot of excited talk about good ol' Chop and his ability to give Jedi Focus and Evade to make them super durable. This has me a little confused though:

Chopper resolves after you execute a maneuver. If we go by abilities like Fine-Tuned Controls: they let Jedi barrel roll of asteroids because they are specifically not part of the perform action-step. So I always thought this trigger is one step before performing actions. Since Chopper gives you a red evade action, wouldn't that mean that you are now stressed, thus preventing you from taking your normal action? What did I miss?

Thanks in advance for any clarification!

You didn't miss anything, your interpretation of the rules is correct, but folks making this excited talk left some information out.

Whenever folks say "Chop can give Jedi Focus and Evade," they don't mean Jedi . Jedi can't Focus and Evade with Chopper . They can Force and Evade, which is often mathematically as good, but Force is a different sort of resource from action-based Focus tokens. Instead, they mean specifically Ahsoka can Focus or Evade (she can use her pilot ability to spend a force to gain a focus before she uses Chopper's ability), or Anakin can Focus and Evade (he can possibly clear the stress with his own pilot ability, but see the debate above).

Notably Ahsoka can use her ability even after she uses Chopper, it works whilst she's stressed.