Drea +2 (possible synergy with point def C-ROCs)

Balancing around epic? I don't think so. Drea swarms kinda died after the last update so I think she's safe.

Mux +5 , Seevor +3

I agree with this only because they like pricing lists and staple ships out if they show up too frequently. Mux will still show up, but in tighter lists. Seevor the same.

Ion weapons and other ways to apply Ion tokens to enemy ships +2

They can't up the price of Dace, no one uses ion pulse missiles or ion torps (other than Joy in fang) unironically ;), ICT is neat but Yion is already dead, Kavil wants the dorsal for damage, and Drea wants the dorsal for its cheapness and her ability. Ion Thugs cost too much to spam without support. I haven't seen a connor net used yet since 1.0. Other than the occasional scyc nothing really takes an ion cannon.

Tractor +1

I think we might see a tugboat drop in cost after the tractor rules change now.

K-fighter points buff rolled back.

nah. not until they get a 1 straight or a boost.

Snap Shot +2

need 5A to win something first

Foresight -1 (unless Asajj starts popping up with it, then +2)

😐 most likely of the prophecies

Ships that can take Mag Pulse +1 (K-fighter nerf overlaps).

I think they'll up the missile price to stop too many K's having them. Like protorp pricing history.

Overall, I think we need to win more than the odd event before they directly hit us again. The nerfs to other factions is whats gonna hurt us until then.

I hope they leave scum alone. I suspect it's the empire's turn for increases specifically lambdas, v1s (excluding the non force one) , and vader.

I wouldnt be shocked to see Ric, Obi, and anakin (aethersprite) go up as well.

It will be interesting to see if ace players migrate towards first order at that point depending on how competitively they price vonreg.

All i5s go up +2, Old T goes up +5; just 'cuz.

Scum needs help. Where do u start? how about the ships that none is playing. The list is large.

Aggressors, Jumpmasters (Dengar is ok), Z-95's

So many scum ships with a single good pilot. Y-Wing (Kavil), Kimogila (Torani), Lancer (Ketsu), Firespray (Boba), G1-A starfighter (4-LOM), HWK-290 (Mux)... ffg need to buff the other pilots a little which are not getting to the table.

The initiative war has hurt generics in general. Sure you can run multiple khiraxz fighters or 4 star vipers but do you want to even play a single (or multiple) generic y-wings, grandfinds man, generic hawk, bounty hunter, z-95 or mining guild generics?

From what I can see 2.0 right now is dominated by lists with efficient passive mods, high initiative repositioning (Jedi, Vader, Inquisitors) or swarms (imperial, separatists) ...none of which scum is very good at. scum players need more options to deal with the commonly seen threats out there. right now they are pigeon-holed into a limited number of squads (Mux Cartel, Old Para Ketsu, Quad Stavipers or Seevor and some janky friends). Extended is better than hyperspace but its obvious scum is at the bottom of the factions right now.

c'mon ffg. Throw scum a bone. We are living on scraps here.

14 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

And that's exactly the way it should be.

Buff the weak leads to power creep and gave us the worst of 1.0. Nerf the strong keeps everything at a playable level and is definitely the right call.

Uuugh 1.0s issues were that it was an arms race of printing bigger and better things till it eventually crumbled under its own weight. the weak got left behind in the dust never to be played again.

gradually buffing the weak is the best way to make certain ships playable, the TAP is the perfect example of a ship that saw ZERO play at the start of 2.0 but with subtle buffs at each points change the ship is finally viable again. I see no reason why this shouldn't be the case for all underperforming ships.

Yes the OP ships at the top need to be cut down as well, but in general a narrowing of the overall powerband of all ships and upgrades will make so many more strategies and ships viable which I would have thought would be in everyone's interests.

Seeing ships that get virtually zero play not get points adjustments at the 6 monthly changeup is discouraging for those that genuinely want to play them.

4 hours ago, Mace Windu said:

Uuugh 1.0s issues were that it was an arms race of printing bigger and better things till it eventually crumbled under its own weight. the weak got left behind in the dust never to be played again.

gradually buffing the weak is the best way to make certain ships playable, the TAP is the perfect example of a ship that saw ZERO play at the start of 2.0 but with subtle buffs at each points change the ship is finally viable again. I see no reason why this shouldn't be the case for all underperforming ships.

Yes the OP ships at the top need to be cut down as well, but in general a narrowing of the overall powerband of all ships and upgrades will make so many more strategies and ships viable which I would have thought would be in everyone's interests.

Seeing ships that get virtually zero play not get points adjustments at the 6 monthly changeup is discouraging for those that genuinely want to play them.

Of course they should do both whenever possible, whenever they have the time and ressources to look into and test both. That's obvious. But if talking about whether they should have a ""nerf the good" strategy rather than a "buff the weak"" strategy then the nerf the good is exactly what they should follow primarily, not exclusively.

Besides, many ships were called "unplayable" when they were really not:

• Morgan Reid's version of the spanish inquisition with Soontir instead of GrandInq was 200points at release if you drop the shield upgrade. Was that really unplayable? Or did nobody think of it? Then it got 4pt cheaper in January, still nobody thought of it.
• Leia was (in)famously made fun of at release at the coruscant invitational, and a year later she's auto include for rebels, at just -2 points. Was she really unplayable? Or did nobody realize yet? (Yes I know rebels are not doing well, but that's due to many factors. Leia is still good at 6pt though, that part hasn't changed)
• The TIE Agressor is widely known to be unplayable. Yet he made top4 at US nationals, both in swiss and in the cut. Are they really unplayable?

To make it short, ships that get virtually zero play need sometimes a nudge and some exposure instead of a points buff. Somebody needs to pave the way and demonstrate what can be done. Without knowing before whether it will pay off. That barrier is lowered significantly with points decreases. But that does not mean that a 2-5pt reduction makes or brakes a ship.

e: but more importantly, such barriers are lowered even more significantly when current top dogs are brought down a peg or two. The restrictive part is often not the points cost of the underplayed ship but instead the oppression by the top meta lists. Pushing those out allows weaker ships to play a role.

On 9/22/2019 at 4:30 PM, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

I mean, it does seem to be that the mentality is "whatever is winning gets increases" with only very rare, minor, and often insignificant reductions occurring for underperforming items. So, basically it's a "nerf the good" strategy rather than a "buff the weak" strategy. But still, what mostly gets flown after point changes is just the stuff that was getting flown before, with a few less toys attached.

I mean, that Dash Rendar is still an absurdly overcosted 98pts, for instance, having only gone 2pts since 2.0 dropped despite never ever seeing any sort of competitive table (outside of the brief Roarke+GunnerHan trick before it was banned) is pretty telling.

I'd rather have more incentive to dust off some of the garbage options in each faction rather than just periodically having to take one or two less toys on the go-to stuff at the top of the list.

A tonne of bad stuff got buffs, though. Maybe some stuff could use *more* buffs, but they have gotten buffs.

• B-Wings (everything but Braylen is cheaper than release), E-Wings, A-Wings, Y-Wings, ARCs, K-Wings, VCX, YT-1300s, Leia Crew!!!
• Gunboats, Defenders, TIE/x1, TIE/v1, TIE Aggressors, Decimators
• IG-88s, Firesprays except Boba, G1-A, Jumpmasters, Kihraxzes, Lancers, Kimogilas, M3-A Sycks, Scurrg Bomber (still net buff, even after the nerfs last adjustment!), Generic Y-Wings, YV-666
• Resistance Bombers and Falcons and Generic T-70s.
• Everything First Order except Upsilons and Quickdraw.
• Most of Wave 3 Republic (not 7B, Anakin, Sinker, or cheap-generics).
• Everything Wave 3 Separatist except Maul and Dooku.

I mean, I can understand that Dash fans feel left behind, but to say that FFG typically "nerfs and not buffs" just isn't really accurate.

Hrm... This gets me thinking... what's bad that *didn't* get buffs?

• Auzituck. I'm not sure whether to count Attack Shuttles or TIEs, since while they don't see play, they don't seem inappropriately costed. Folks just don't want to fly them.
• Maybe the Reaper, but it isn't really that bad. Some folks would say Generic TIE Interceptors, but I don't agree and we've had that discussion before.
• Z-95 (listing here but not in Rebels, since they seem a lot worse than Rebel Z-95s)
• Nothing bad in Resistance didn't get buffs.
  • Not many ships in these factions to begin with, but still...
• Nothing bad in First Order didn't get buffs.
• Nothing bad in Republic didn't get buffs.
• Nothing bad in Separatists didn't get buffs.

I mean, there's probably a few individual pilots who didn't get buffs (Black Scout Striker), but on the whole, there's no bad ship which hasn't been buffed.

1 minute ago, theBitterFig said:

A tonne of bad stuff got buffs, though. Maybe some stuff could use *more* buffs, but they have gotten buffs.

• B-Wings (everything but Braylen is cheaper than release), E-Wings, A-Wings, Y-Wings, ARCs, K-Wings, VCX, YT-1300s, Leia Crew!!!
• Gunboats, Defenders, TIE/x1, TIE/v1, TIE Aggressors, Decimators
• IG-88s, Firesprays except Boba, G1-A, Jumpmasters, Kihraxzes, Lancers, Kimogilas, M3-A Sycks, Scurrg Bomber (still net buff, even after the nerfs last adjustment!), Generic Y-Wings, YV-666
• Resistance Bombers and Falcons and Generic T-70s.
• Everything First Order except Upsilons and Quickdraw.
• Most of Wave 3 Republic (not 7B, Anakin, Sinker, or cheap-generics).
• Everything Wave 3 Separatist except Maul and Dooku.

I mean, I can understand that Dash fans feel left behind, but to say that FFG typically "nerfs and not buffs" just isn't really accurate.

Hrm... This gets me thinking... what's bad that *didn't* get buffs?

• Auzituck. I'm not sure whether to count Attack Shuttles or TIEs, since while they don't see play, they don't seem inappropriately costed. Folks just don't want to fly them.
• Maybe the Reaper, but it isn't really that bad. Some folks would say Generic TIE Interceptors, but I don't agree and we've had that discussion before.
• Z-95 (listing here but not in Rebels, since they seem a lot worse than Rebel Z-95s)
• Nothing bad in Resistance didn't get buffs.
  • Not many ships in these factions to begin with, but still...
• Nothing bad in First Order didn't get buffs.
• Nothing bad in Republic didn't get buffs.
• Nothing bad in Separatists didn't get buffs.

I mean, there's probably a few individual pilots who didn't get buffs (Black Scout Striker), but on the whole, there's no bad ship which hasn't been buffed.

You make some very good points. But I suppose the thrust of my position was that the buffs that do occur are not typically signficant (or, at least, not nearly as signficiant as the debuffs that are dealt out).

When raising costs, FFG has show they'll drastically increase the value of a card, sometimes adding 100% (or more) to the card's cost. When lowering costs, FFG seems to be unwilling to tick more than one or two points off of something, and this rarely ends up being significant, in that people still tend to play the stuff that was good and got increased much more than they play the stuff that was bad and got cheaper. I mean, we're still not seeing E-Wings (especially non-Corran E-Wings) do anything, for instance, but we still see Vader and TIE Phantorms and Leia Crew and even Supernatural Reflexes still get used, despite some substantial increases to those things.

So, it's a matter of degree, for the most part. But you are absolutely right that FFG has shaved some points off of things here and there, and I probably haven't given enough credit to that. I appreciate your clarification.

6 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

You make some very good points. But I suppose the thrust of my position was that the buffs that do occur are not typically signficant (or, at least, not nearly as signficiant as the debuffs that are dealt out).

When raising costs, FFG has show they'll drastically increase the value of a card, sometimes adding 100% (or more) to the card's cost. When lowering costs, FFG seems to be unwilling to tick more than one or two points off of something, and this rarely ends up being significant, in that people still tend to play the stuff that was good and got increased much more than they play the stuff that was bad and got cheaper. I mean, we're still not seeing E-Wings (especially non-Corran E-Wings) do anything, for instance, but we still see Vader and TIE Phantorms and Leia Crew and even Supernatural Reflexes still get used, despite some substantial increases to those things.

So, it's a matter of degree, for the most part. But you are absolutely right that FFG has shaved some points off of things here and there, and I probably haven't given enough credit to that. I appreciate your clarification.

I think a lot of it is a "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink" sort of thing.

E-Wings went down NINE points on generics, 8 on Corran (and @RoockieBoy did very well with him), 7 on Gavin. I personally don't think folks the reason they don't see a lot of use is because they're bad, but just folks don't want to fly them.

I mean, I started off 2e with a massive win streak with TIE Defenders and a Palp OGP. These ships only ever got buffed, and didn't lose a game with them until after the buffs. Go figure.

3 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I think a lot of it is a "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink" sort of thing.

Exactly this. xwing players are notoriously conservative and mainly put tried&tested ideas on the table and actually practice them.

Nobody wants to sink game time into something that might not pay off.

The big secret of 2.0 is that many if not most things can be made to work with enough practice. But who wants to practice something that might turn out to be non-optimal and behind the curve.

There are some exceptions of course. The cheapest auzituck is 46 vs the 43 of the Uwing, where half a firing arc and 3hards have to compensate a lot, from 3 points to 1 agility to better shield/hull to standing rotations to lock action and strictly better slots.

snapshot up 2 points? are you mad?!

the game feels pretty good right now. we just got these points 2 weeks ago. let it settle. Jesus.

if anything Resistance bomber could come down a touch. there isn't much else I feel is too much right now

16 hours ago, Whalers on the moon said:

All i5s go up +2, Old T goes up +5; just 'cuz.

The rise of Kad Solus. Try with elusive, such blatant synergy and it actually works harmoniously.

14 hours ago, Da_Brown_Bomber said:

c'mon ffg. Throw scum a bone. We are living on scraps here.

Personally, I think that Scum lives and dies by its upgrades, Self-Synergy. Trying to play scum like another faction isn't the right way to go. 2-4 loners that happen to be in the same place and can take advantage of other named characters self synergies. Like Jostero loves bombers like emon and sol sixa, Kulda in in the kimo, FA & SDV blockers. They all build to benefit themselves best, and then opportunists strike. Vultures, hyenas, and other scavengers.

I watched a game of double tap perco Nym without bombs, and a Yion with seismic, The Y did Y things and set a do not fly zone with the seismic, Nym held it there as a threat and that's where the Scum list set up for runs, ran and returned to etc. Nym then came in with nice modded double shots on multi turn flight path for a great strafing run. Made a nice "safe" portion of the map for scum a strong hazard for the oppo.

I played a heavy Dengar and a light Dengar, the Hgar punched up, flew the whole board, disengaged/reengaged at will and was constantly threatening enemy ships with that counter shot. My oppo decline several shots where Hgar was the only option. The Lgar struggled the whole time because options were limited, couldnt dirty trick his way out of bad spots or "ambush" with contraband cybernetics, or really anything because the limitations of actions available and the lack of upgrades to shore up the weaknesses Scum likes options. Scum Needs options. I dont think the problem is the platforms, we lack the options to make a threatening build out of our uniques without crippling everything else in the list. I want a card pack of Scum only upgrades, EPT, Illicits, Special Weapons, Multislot like mods and illicits etc. It's the faction of dirty tricks, GIB DIRTY TRICKS.

Thanks for reading my stream of consciousness.

1 hour ago, Redd9 said:

The rise of Kad Solus. Try with elusive, such blatant synergy and it actually works harmoniously.

This is a thing.

I love Kad, especially with Elusive. But only 2pt less than Teroch is very meh at the list building stage. Particularly when naked Teroch is so viable.

I think the Recruit is fine at 44, Fenn and Teroch are fine where they are. The others could drop 2 and give us some actual decent choices at that mid range.

I've been looking at 3 Crack Vipers with a Fang. Kad misses out by a single point

Drop Crack and you can get Kad, but then also Teroch instead. The choices are not meaningful enough there, given the obvious benefits of I5.

Been flying Kad Solus with Elusive off and on since the early days of 2e. Love the dude. Terroch and Fenn Rau carry the list, but Kad always seems to contribute.

3 hours ago, Wiredin said:

snapshot up 2 points? are you mad?!

In which meaning of "mad" are you implying? Looking at how FFG has adjusted similar effects and the current draw and likely breadth of application of the upgrade I think 7 points will be considered too cheap by them come January...

1 hour ago, Hiemfire said:

In which meaning of "mad" are you implying? Looking at how FFG has adjusted similar effects and the current draw and likely breadth of application of the upgrade I think 7 points will be considered too cheap by them come January...

it's been out for 2 weeks, it hasn't really been causing cancer. why make the assumption that they need to adjust points? 7 points is pretty fair.

2 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Been flying Kad Solus with Elusive off and on since the early days of 2e. Love the dude. Terroch and Fenn Rau carry the list, but Kad always seems to contribute.

Well, all 3 ftw ofc

I've run a pair of Fangs in a few lists. I find it quite interesting that Swarm Fenn and a Recruit is only 1pt different to Fearless Old T and Elusive Kad.

2 very different dynamics.

No idea what bearing this has on pricing.....

30 minutes ago, Wiredin said:

it's been out for 2 weeks, it hasn't really been causing cancer. why make the assumption that they need to adjust points? 7 points is pretty fair.

You're misinterpreting my post...

22 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

You're misinterpreting my post...

enlighten me.

6 minutes ago, Wiredin said:

enlighten me.

I'm not asking or calling for these point changes, I would rather they did not happen. This is a list of what I suspect FFG will do to the cards and effects mentioned in my first post based on performance to date and power level of new ships/abilities that are centered on those effects applying what FFG has done in the last 2 biannual adjustments as a filter.

Storm crow, not stormcaller.

7 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

I think a lot of it is a "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink" sort of thing.

E-Wings went down NINE points on generics, 8 on Corran (and @RoockieBoy did very well with him), 7 on Gavin. I personally don't think folks the reason they don't see a lot of use is because they're bad, but just folks don't want to fly them.

I mean, I started off 2e with a massive win streak with TIE Defenders and a Palp OGP. These ships only ever got buffed, and didn't lose a game with them until after the buffs. Go figure.

E-Wing's cost to upgrade from Ini 2 to Ini 4 and talent is only 2 cost. For 56 cost with R4 you have all maneuvers on dial, Ini 4 and 3/3/3/3 stats, which is better than 58 points Ini 4 Tie Silencer. 58 points is also ini 4 with R3 and Crack Shot. It's funny that people don't play it. Seems like a good ship for it's cost.

1 hour ago, Boreas Mun said:

E-Wing's cost to upgrade from Ini 2 to Ini 4 and talent is only 2 cost. For 56 cost with R4 you have all maneuvers on dial, Ini 4 and 3/3/3/3 stats, which is better than 58 points Ini 4 Tie Silencer. 58 points is also ini 4 with R3 and Crack Shot. It's funny that people don't play it. Seems like a good ship for it's cost.

Double reposition is huge. Also, the Silencer can "link" to something other than a lock action. Those minor changes are big.

4 hours ago, Boreas Mun said:

E-Wing's cost to upgrade from Ini 2 to Ini 4 and talent is only 2 cost. For 56 cost with R4 you have all maneuvers on dial, Ini 4 and 3/3/3/3 stats, which is better than 58 points Ini 4 Tie Silencer. 58 points is also ini 4 with R3 and Crack Shot. It's funny that people don't play it. Seems like a good ship for it's cost.

Yeah, as @5050Saint says, the small differences wind up being pretty big. Experimental Scanners can be really good at setting up a hard-hitting round early in the game. Autothrusters, however, are just all-around good, and Silencers have the Blues to use them.

I mean, I like E-Wings, think they're decent enough.