I searched and nothing came up, so let me ask:

-Can you write down your opponents list before set up and or actually enter it into an app and refer to it during the game rather than having to constantly ask or squint across the table at their cards?

-Can you have a printed page featuring every dial in the game?

I’m thinking both of these are okay, and what they are trying to deter are actual notes about strategies and such like “when playing against a swarm, make sure to place the biggest rocks in the middle and line up your ships....”, but I wanted to be totally clear.

(puts on his Tournament Organizer hat)

By the strict letter of the law... everything you mentioned above is not permissible. Because they are not official game materials (rule book, rules reference, etc), they may not be used during a game.

In practice, the full contents of your opponent's list (including point values and half-points thresholds) are open information, as are the maneuvers available to any given ship. Having that material on hand in a physical or digital format is something most (but not all) TOs will rule as acceptable. To be safe, you should always ask your local TO how they will adjudicate such matters before an event.

One other consideration to keep in mind, though: continual reference to materials, including official documents like the Rules Reference (which are by definition legal to consult) could be construed by some judges as a form of stalling / intentional slow play, which could earn you penalty points. If something is slowing down the game, a player is perfectly within their rights to call a judge over to observe for instances of slow play.

Thanks for the detailed explaination! It never occurred to me that all of that could lead to slow play. Perhaps that’s some of the reason they aren’t permissible. I’d still like to quickly jot down what they’re playing, just for reference after the fact, but I guess I can do that after the match is over instead.

Ask your TO. They probably won't care as long as its within reason.

Quote

However, players may reference official rule documents or game components that do not contain hidden information at any time or ask a judge for clarification from official rules documents. Official rules documents include all rules documents and inserts available on the X-Wing page of our website, the official X-Wing Squad Builder, those found in an X-Wing product, or any portion thereof.

It has generally been accepted that "any portion thereof" means that you can have print outs of official material such as dials.

Alright, so I can always just print out the dials and if they say no, put it back in my bag. No harm/foul ect.

from tournament regulations, page 6:

"Taking Notes and Outside Material

Players cannot take notes or reference outside material or information during a tournament round. However, players may reference official rule documents or game components that do not contain hidden information at any time or ask a judge for clarification from official rules documents. Official rules documents include all rules documents and inserts available on the X-Wing page of our website, the official X-Wing Squad Builder, those found in an X-Wing product, or any portion thereof."

Actually, now that I read it again, if it’s in the squad builder app, which all card images and dials are, then it’s “inside”, so to speak and should infact he perfectly legal.

I believe especially if you use the official x wing squad builder you would fall in the rules of using official FFG stuff. That being said, when I started I used a printout of the dials and never once had an issue. Most TO's will inspect what you bring to make sure it doesn't bring any extra information and stuff. I've also never had an issue with a TO telling me I can't write down points as they are scored to help keep track of the game as well, especially when I put it where both players can see to have an easy look to see ships half points/ whats already be scored.

Yeah, totally. I actually forgot to even mention points. Playing a game without knowing your opponents half points is kinda crazy. I would volunteer that information of my squad to an opponent up front.

25 minutes ago, K-2SO said:

Yeah, totally. I actually forgot to even mention points. Playing a game without knowing your opponents half points is kinda crazy. I would volunteer that information of my squad to an opponent up front.

That's where having a physical printout of your list really comes in handy for tournaments. It's easy for both you and your opponent to cross-reference points, and know where you stand in the middle of a fight, without having to muddle through an app to get the points.

There's also an app called high ground in both app stores. You just punhc in your list and what their points are and your opponents ships and points and you click for half damage and click again for full. Has a running scoreboard and a timer on it so it's super convenient.

21 hours ago, SirToastsalot said:

There's also an app called high ground in both app stores. You just punhc in your list and what their points are and your opponents ships and points and you click for half damage and click again for full. Has a running scoreboard and a timer on it so it's super convenient.

That's all well and good, but being an unofficial, unsanctioned app, it technically runs afoul of the rules being discussed in this thread. A much better (and guaranteed legal) resource is the actual official app, and print outs generated from that web version of the app.

I highly recommend just using paper to record the point costs of your opponents ships and having your own available for the opponent (and yourself) as well.

Way better than running out of battery on your phone.

On 9/21/2019 at 11:53 PM, emeraldbeacon said:

(puts on his Tournament Organizer hat)

By the strict letter of the law... everything you mentioned above is not permissible. Because they are not official game materials (rule book, rules reference, etc), they may not be used during a game.

This is a misreading of the rule

Quote

Taking Notes and Outside Material

Players cannot take notes or reference outside material or information during a tournament round. However, players may reference official rule documents or game components that do not contain hidden information at any time or ask a judge for clarification from official rules documents. Official rules documents include all rules documents and inserts available on the X-Wing page of our website, the official X-Wing Squad Builder, those found in an X-Wing product, or any portion thereof

bold emphasis mine - this means as long as the source of the information is an official document/component, it doesn't actually have to be that exact document/component.

You are allowed to have reference material as long as it contains information found in an official document/component and that information is not hidden information (i.e. a dial set in the planning phase) - this includes items found in X-Wing products (e.g. maneuver dials). This means you need to make sure that any reference you bring only has official document/component information though - you couldn't bring a cheat sheet that listed ship dials (fine) *and* had notes about your opening sequence or whatever (this sort of reference is what the rule is preventing).

Your opponent's list (complete with points breakdown by ship with half points and threshold value) is open information.

Further, you are allowed (encouraged!) to have your opponent and/or the judge clarify any game state/interaction/etc. that you don't understand. And any attempt to obscure information/misdirect you would be a violation of the sportsmanship rules.

22 minutes ago, Transmogrifier said:

...this means as long as the source of the information is an official document/component, it doesn't actually have to be that exact document/component...

...which is itself, technically an inaccurate reading of the rule. You're allowed to use the official documents, or any portion of those documents. That is not the same as information taken FROM that document and reformatted to your preference. You're allowed to have the document/app/etc or parts of that document... making a full printout of enemy dials is technically not the actual rules documents. Your opponent's list and point values are open information and should be accessible, but keeping a running tally of current-points-destroyed is technically running afoul of the rules.

Now, I know that I'm splitting hairs here and being ultra-conservative in my reading of the rules... what you're describing is, in my opinion, absolutely reasonable to bring to the table. I would simply rather be a insufferable rules lawyer here in rules theory space, and get an absolute definition now, than run the risk of running afoul of a zealous judge, throwing out penalty points for ticky-tack rules violations.

I think it’s definitely possible to quickly walk over to your opps side of the table and build their squad in the official app. This will give you ALL the pertinent info you needed. What the cards do, how many points each ship is, their thresholds and their dials.

As far as slow play is concerned, the only risk is during planning and having to scroll and click on each of their ships to reveal the dials otherwise you can check abilities and points at any time your opp is activations their ships ect.

2 hours ago, emeraldbeacon said:

You're allowed to use the official documents, or any portion of those documents. That is not the same as information taken FROM that document and reformatted to your preference.

This is nonsense. "Any portion thereof" means exactly that. You want to try to insist that anything that isn't literally printed and distributed by FFG is not allowed? That somehow taking information from an official document and reproducing the information exactly as provided by FFG is somehow illegal, just because the format changes? Ok, then all the information that you have in your brain that you've memorized? Not an official document. Can't reference it. A fanatical judge might catch you thinking about X-Wing and issue penalties.

Official documents include "those found in an X-Wing product". The dial for a ship is included in an X-Wing product. The dial for a ship is an official document. You are allowed to reference an official document. You are allowed to reference any portion of an official document.

As far as point values of ships and upgrades, the total point value of a ship with included upgrades, the half point threshold of a ship/upgrades, and the half point value of a ship/upgrades, all of this is also part of an official document: The official squad builder. The squad builder contains and displays these values (build a squad, click share, click PDF). You are allowed to reference an official document. You are allowed to reference any portion of an official document.

End of story. Putting several official documents next to each-other on a single page does not change that. A theoretical fanatical judge giving penalties for something that isn't actually against the rules doesn't change that.

2 hours ago, emeraldbeacon said:

...which is itself, technically an inaccurate reading of the rule. You're allowed to use the official documents, or any portion of those documents. That is not the same as information taken FROM that document and reformatted to your preference. You're allowed to have the document/app/etc or parts of that document... making a full printout of enemy dials is technically not the actual rules documents. Your opponent's list and point values are open information and should be accessible, but keeping a running tally of current-points-destroyed is technically running afoul of the rules.

Now, I know that I'm splitting hairs here and being ultra-conservative in my reading of the rules... what you're describing is, in my opinion, absolutely reasonable to bring to the table. I would simply rather be a insufferable rules lawyer here in rules theory space, and get an absolute definition now, than run the risk of running afoul of a zealous judge, throwing out penalty points for ticky-tack rules violations.

The problem is that this sort of internet rules lawyering serves no purpose. You admit that you're arguing for a position you don't agree with - why? There may be people who earnestly believe what you're saying *should be* the interpretation of the rules, but let those people speak for themselves. You don't need to propagate a position that only has a basis in a super literal interpretation of the text and, if accepted as the correct interpretation of the text, accomplishes nothing other than letting you say "gotcha!" to a hapless player who is just trying to understand the game state. If you are encountering local judges who assert this 'ultra conservative reading', you should be pushing back and asking them to be accountable for the very real impact this sort of thing has on the community. Let's work from the assumption that the rules permit you do things that don't hurt other people.

23 minutes ago, Transmogrifier said:

The problem is that this sort of internet rules lawyering serves no purpose. You admit that you're arguing for a position you don't agree with - why?

Because understanding the arguments both for and against gives everyone the proper intellectual ammunition to effectively argue their point, just in case it comes up in the real world. It's precisely because of the possibility of "local judges who assert this 'ultra conservative reading'," that I want to be ready to argue the case.

I know I'm the bad guy here! I'm trying to be the bad guy. I'm trying to find every legal loophole I can, so that others can provide sound arguments within the rules to effectively close those loopholes.

For context at the System open in Australia it is was specifically asked of the organisers before the event if using High ground or taking written notes to track scores during the game was allowed.

The response was that each player had to have a printed copy of their squad list with full and half points of each ship available for their opponent at all times and that the use of high ground and taking notes "Should not be done".

It can sometimes be hard to do the mental arithmetic in your head while trying to focus on a game, sadly for me I ended up losing my bubble game because I got the math slightly wrong in my head and ended up losing the game by 3 points when I thought I was winning.

Basically it depends on who's running the event and what they are OK with.

On 9/24/2019 at 7:26 PM, SirToastsalot said:

That being said, when I started I used a printout of the dials and never once had an issue.

I used to do the same when I started out. Had printouts of all the dials, and before game made certain I had the correct ones. But I had the opposite experience. Several players looked at me like I'm crazy or cheating when I explain that I have print-outs of all their dails available. And I did have to call a TO once or twice to explain that I'm not cheating.

On 9/22/2019 at 5:53 AM, emeraldbeacon said:

One other consideration to keep in mind, though: continual reference to materials, including official documents like the Rules Reference (which are by definition legal to consult) could be construed by some judges as a form of stalling / intentional slow play, which could earn you penalty points.

As a relatively casual player I find that it saves time. Without my dial printouts I now have to ask my opponent on occasion to see their dail. I believe this is a legal thing to do. Basically I would, at the start of the Planning phase, say something like: "Just a sec, before you place your dial can I see it please." (Typical scenario would be if an opponent's ship is stressed and I need to see the blue moves available. I don't play enough to know all the dials off by heart)

But it is really much faster to just consult a printout than stalling my opponent's planning. Even worse, asking for the dial usually disrupts their thinking process.