Q: When an effect checks the difficulty of your revealed maneuver (such as Cova Nell’s pilot ability), do any effects that alter the difficulty of your maneuvers (such as R4 Astromech or Leia Organa [Resistance]) apply?

A: No. The difficulty of a revealed maneuver matches its printed color. The speed and bearing of a revealed maneuver also match their printed value and type, respectively.

Q1: So, if I pop Leia and reveal a physical dial red maneuver on Hera, I can then use Hera to switch to any white maneuver? (Or red too I guess)

Q2: As long as I dial in a physical dial blue maneuver on Hera, I can switch to any bank if Nien Crew is equipped?

Q3: Lando and Nien work because regardless of the physical dial, he executes a blue maneuver (when banking)?

27 minutes ago, JBFancourt said:

Q1: So, if I pop Leia and reveal a physical dial red maneuver on Hera, I can then use Hera to switch to any white maneuver?

Interesting but I don't agree. I think Hera's ' ...same difficulty ' has to relate to the Revealed Manuever .

27 minutes ago, JBFancourt said:

Q2: As long as I dial in a physical dial blue maneuver on Hera, I can switch to any bank if Nien Crew is equipped?

I think. This seems consistent with FAQ and the use of Revealed Manuever. The banks are blue. The just aren't revealed as blue.

14 hours ago, Sk3tch said:

Interesting but I don't agree. I think Hera's ' ...same difficulty ' has to relate to the Revealed Manuever .

I think. This seems consistent with FAQ and the use of Revealed Manuever. The banks are blue. The just aren't revealed as blue.

I feel like 1&2 are either both true or both false. There’s nothing in Hera’s ability that requires the chosen maneuver to be a physical dial difficulty. The only check is a difficulty check.

Yea? Nay? Am I missing something?

32 minutes ago, JBFancourt said:

Yea? Nay? Am I missing something?

You're missing a sensible rule that actually address this issue being given by FFG, instead of half-baked FAQ entry that tackles half of the issue at stake.

4 minutes ago, Ryfterek said:

You're missing a sensible rule that actually address this issue being given by FFG, instead of half-baked FAQ entry that tackles half of the issue at stake.

Pretty much. I've given up trying to work out how they think these things should work, because I honestly don't think they're thinking beyond the individual case they're ruling on (Cova/R4 in this case) to the wider implications of those rulings when they make them.

I know how I think they should work, I know how I expect the writers to rule them when they eventually get round to bothering to say anything, I know how I wish they would operate, but they're simply not writing the game we want them to writem, so... meh.

I've essentially given up the high level competitive game at this point due to lack of time and lack of income, so I'm a lot less invested in trying to make sensible rules happen than I used to be, and apparently, so are the writers.

2 hours ago, Ryfterek said:

You're missing a sensible rule that actually address this issue being given by FFG, instead of half-baked FAQ entry that tackles half of the issue at stake.

So... whaddya think of my questions? No?

Heck knows.

6 hours ago, Ryfterek said:

You're missing a sensible rule that actually address this issue being given by FFG, instead of half-baked FAQ entry that tackles half of the issue at stake.

I think this covers it. Nien and R4 Astromech used to be "always on." Now they are not and we do not now understand how and when to apply them. None of the change difficulty of a maneuver effects were given proper timing, triggers, or replacement effect wording at the outset of 2nd Edition. This is an egregious error simply due to all the difficulty these effects caused in 1st Edition. In light of these "revealed maneuver" effects "egregious error" feels like an understatement. Particularly so if these sorts of things were on the drawing board at the outset of second edition.

One could "fix" Nien by simply having worded him as "During the check difficulty step reduce the difficulty of your [bank] maneuvers." Same for R4 Astromech. If they wanted ships to be able to use them while stressed to reveal red maneuvers they could have added wording to that effect telling us when to apply it. They could have taken much more care with these change the difficulty of a maneuver effects.

And they certainly should have taken more care in correcting it. They shouldn't have tried to re-write the rules to avoid errata or nerf powerful combos or legitimize a spineless TO.

10 hours ago, JBFancourt said:

So... whaddya think of my questions? No?

I have no clue. As the local judge, I'll probably end up legitimising all of the combos in question, just because most of them are intuitive and CovaR4 has been straightforward legitimised.

That being said, this doesn't even come from much of a think-through process over the rules.

I know Leia is popular. I admit the effect seems strong, however, someone mentioned in a podcast that having Leia on the board for too long can be game swinging. Doesn’t seem like something that would lead to a win condition as it reads. What am I missing? What shenigans is she responsible for?!

9 minutes ago, K-2SO said:

I know Leia is popular. I admit the effect seems strong, however, someone mentioned in a podcast that having Leia on the board for too long can be game swinging. Doesn’t seem like something that would lead to a win condition as it reads. What am I missing? What shenigans is she responsible for?!

Well Rebel Leia by taking away red maneuvers is in a way "free" actions for the whole squad. The more uses she gets the more actions that would have been missed get taken. I do not see it as a win condition but four ships each use is potentially eight actions taken that might otherwise be skipped from stress just on two uses. Three uses is twelve and still in double digits of you lose a ship or two. I don't see shenanigans so much as really adding up.

Nobody knows, but it’s provocative.

I'm inclined to treat the R4/Cova ruling as having no impact on Hera's interaction. Hera and Nien and Leia never mention "revealed maneuver" so I think it'd be best to treat Hera with the old interpretations, until FFG says otherwise specifically.

12 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I'm inclined to treat the R4/Cova ruling as having no impact on Hera's interaction. Hera and Nien and Leia never mention "revealed maneuver" so I think it'd be best to treat Hera with the old interpretations, until FFG says otherwise specifically.

Ummm.....

(1) Hera says “Reveal”

(2) The point is that effects DONT change the difficulty of the physical revealed maneuver. So Hera can still reveal red maneuvers even if Leia is popped??? No?

right? ...... you know you wanna pick any white or red maneuver with Hera!!! Come on! Come on say it!! 😜

2 hours ago, JBFancourt said:

...... you know you wanna pick any white or red maneuver with Hera!!! Come on! Come on say it!! 😜

Not really. I personally don't think that makes any sense. I mean, Cova/R4 doesn't always make sense to me either.

At best, this Hera would be wicked rules-lawyer-y in order to get a massive advantage. That doesn't really sit well with me.

2 hours ago, JBFancourt said:

(1) Hera says “Reveal”

Terms are close, but not quite the same.

Some of this is an attitude similar to @thespaceinvader , throwing up my hands in frustration. I can't exactly figure it out, so sticking with the old interpretations until FFG tells us what they want us to do seems like the most modest and rational approach to it.

Personally, I'm inclined to believe that effects like R4, Leia, etc. only take effect when the ship is going to execute the maneuver. So If Hera reveals a red she can rotate to any other red maneuver on her dial, then she executes it as white. For the same reason, she wouldn't work with Nein, as when she reveals a blue, she can only rotate to another blue maneuver. I didn't initially feel this way, but it seems to be the only way to interpret R4 to have it work with Cova Nell. So things like Rebel Leia and Nein only change the difficulty while executing it.

36 minutes ago, SirToastsalot said:

Personally, I'm inclined to believe that effects like R4, Leia, etc. only take effect when the ship is going to execute the maneuver. So If Hera reveals a red she can rotate to any other red maneuver on her dial, then she executes it as white. For the same reason, she wouldn't work with Nein, as when she reveals a blue, she can only rotate to another blue maneuver. I didn't initially feel this way, but it seems to be the only way to interpret R4 to have it work with Cova Nell. So things like Rebel Leia and Nein only change the difficulty while executing it.

I like this view. 👆

It seems like the one most likely to cause the fewest problems for sure.

On 9/24/2019 at 11:42 AM, SirToastsalot said:

Personally, I'm inclined to believe that effects like R4, Leia, etc. only take effect when the ship is going to execute the maneuver. So If Hera reveals a red she can rotate to any other red maneuver on her dial, then she executes it as white. For the same reason, she wouldn't work with Nein, as when she reveals a blue, she can only rotate to another blue maneuver. I didn't initially feel this way, but it seems to be the only way to interpret R4 to have it work with Cova Nell. So things like Rebel Leia and Nein only change the difficulty while executing it.

This appears to be the correct interpretation!!! Kudos 👍 😜

If Leia is popped, and I dialed in a red, I can switch to any red then perform it as white.

Nein does not work with the Hera ability.

Hello all. Sorry for the ignorance.... I am new to x wing and this forum. Is this the official ruling for when card effects are supposed to go into effect, or is there an official rule somewhere that states that upgrade cards that don't state a timing, only go into effect when the card would be used? When I read the text "Decrease the difficulty of your bank maneuvers" and attach that card to my ship, I thought my ship had that new ability from the moment it was attached to my ship. My interpretation seems to be wrong, and I was looking for an official rule for this....... as it seems many were. Is the official ruling that a cards like Nien Nunb only go into effect while executing then?

@serlach21 The specific ruling is on the " X-Wing Official Rulings " post (page 2) at the top of this forum.

Quote

Q: How do abilities that alter the speed, difficulty, and/or bearing of a maneuver that a ship reveals during its Reveal Dial step and executes during its Execute Maneuver step resolve? For example, if Hera Syndulla [Attack Shuttle] is equipped with R4 Astromech and Seasoned Navigator, and also has the Damaged Engine Damage Card, what happens?

A: R4 Astromech and Damaged Engine (and other constant effects that alter the difficulty of a maneuver, such as Nien Nunb [Crew], L3-37's Programming, and Leia Organa [Rebel and Resistance, Crew]) apply only during the Execute Maneuver step and for effects that trigger after that ship executes a maneuver.

So, after Hera's dial is revealed, Hera's player may add Hera's pilot ability and Seasoned Navigator's ability to the ability queue in either order. Both abilities resolve, and if Seasoned Navigator's ability is resolved, the difficulty of the maneuver is increased during the Execute Maneuver step (i.e. the difficulty has not yet been increased when Hera's pilot ability is resolved).

Then, during the Execute Maneuver step, all abilities that alter the difficulty of the maneuver are cumulative as normal.

Note that abilities that alter a maneuver without causing the ship to select a new maneuver on its dial do not affect the ship's "revealed maneuver" as referenced by abilities such as Ric Olié's pilot ability.