1 hour ago, CoffeeMinion said:

I definitely appreciate the responses here!

So as a first-time Pod user, I guess what I’m hearing is that Heroic Finn might still have his place, but I might be better off running him light at 30 points rather than loading him up to 41+, because it’s less certain that he’s going to recoup those.

I think I can live with that.

I think you might be overestimating how squishy he is.

The double token stack goes a long way even with strain. Strain is a penalty to be sure, but it is not something you have to shed immediately. With PA especially, it's often worth holding onto strain because you get superior positioning.

2 hours ago, CoffeeMinion said:

So as a first-time Pod user, I guess what I’m hearing is that Heroic Finn might still have his place, but I might be better off running him light at 30 points rather than loading him up to 41+, because it’s less certain that he’s going to recoup those.

As @Octarine-08 says, be careful not to underestimate Finn's durability, but also remember that his offence is completely intact. With 2 Focus and Optics, your average roll at range 2 or 3 is 2.996 hits, while at range 1 its 3.857. By way of comparison, an X-wing with Focus & Lock averages 2.8 and 3.75. The little guy literally hits harder than the T-70s flying beside him.

You guys are right if we look at a single shot. But every list has at least two ships, and Finn just plops now against two attacks.

Two 3dice focus shots have 37% to deal 3 and 68% to deal two damage.

I don't know why people were playing the 30pt version, but the other is dead.

31 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

You guys are right if we look at a single shot. But every list has at least two ships, and Finn just plops now against two attacks.

I don't believe you? The fully-loaded version will tank 2 shots just fine, unless I've input something wrong there.

EDIT: Yep, we did. Strain gives -1 dice, Drac, not +1. Link is fixed now.

Still don't really believe you, though... seems perfectly fine to take 1 damage from 2 Focused shots.

You know what? Time to do some science:

43-point Perceptive Copilot build can realistically expect to survive three Focused 3-dice attacks.

36-point C-3P0 build has about 50/50 odds.

30-point Heroic build expects to die to three Focused 3-dice attacks, but it's only 60-40 so he also survives it a significant amount of the time.

And that's all assuming there's no range 3 and/or obstruction, and doesn't account for the worlds in which the first attack whiffs or Finn natties his way through it, so all of those simulations are probably slightly weighted against him. That all looks perfectly okay to me; he won't laugh off a full round of shooting anymore, but he's perfectly capable of wearing a reasonable amount of hate.

What a weird debate. Just put him on the table and find out.

12 minutes ago, DR4CO said:

can realistically expect to survive three Focused 3-dice attacks.

He slugs away on 1 hull and has no relevant offense anymore. And he can survive, but 25% to die happens... 25% of the time.

The other two plop.

Now of course, why shouldn't he. But look at other 43pt ships, like Duchess, Iden, 104th, Backdraft, Ric etc... They have the dial and initiative to dodge a full round of shots, or the hp/abilities to tank it.

10 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

What a weird debate. Just put him on the table and find out.

I played him enough that the situation came up some few times where he had a strain at the start of the attack - and then he just plopped. Every time.

Also keep in mind that he won't just face 3 dice focus attacks, but instead lock force jedi, or proton torps, or whatever else is in fashion. The 3 dice focus attack is the absolute baseline, and even there the fully loaded 43pt version just survives 75% of the time, locked into horrible blue maneuvers and without any offense.

Dealing 3 damage effectively removes him from the game, and that is now quite easy. Sure it takes shots, but so does every other ship.

5 hours ago, Tvboy said:

What a weird debate. Just put him on the table and find out.

And risk losing a game while at the bottom of the learning curve??

Are you mad!!??

5 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

I played him enough that the situation came up some few times where he had a strain at the start of the attack - and then he just plopped. Every time.

Also keep in mind that he won't just face 3 dice focus attacks, but instead lock force jedi, or proton torps, or whatever else is in fashion. The 3 dice focus attack is the absolute baseline, and even there the fully loaded 43pt version just survives 75% of the time, locked into horrible blue maneuvers and without any offense.

Dealing 3 damage effectively removes him from the game, and that is now quite easy. Sure it takes shots, but so does every other ship.

I think the other thing to consider here is that on top of the change to Finn's defence, it will greatly impact his offense. Given that he's Initiative 2, Finn is often shooting after taking a shot or two. This means he will already be strained before taking his shot. He can of course add an eyeball to his attack, but two strain is basically a death sentence. 43pt Finn (Perceptive Co-Pilot, Pattern Analyzer, Heroic) would frequently k-turn and having the strain around his neck severely limits his dial.

I think the change was necessary as he was exceptionally good, but this also pretty much removes him from most lists.

My thought is that Finn is now a lot more balanced structurally, so it'll be a lot easier to give him a fair price. Finn was the most expensive Escape Pod, maybe he should now be the same as Rose or Vi.

23 minutes ago, Elbastido said:

I think the other thing to consider here is that on top of the change to Finn's defence, it will greatly impact his offense. Given that he's Initiative 2, Finn is often shooting after taking a shot or two. This means he will already be strained before taking his shot. He can of course add an eyeball to his attack, but two strain is basically a death sentence. 43pt Finn (Perceptive Co-Pilot, Pattern Analyzer, Heroic) would frequently k-turn and having the strain around his neck severely limits his dial.

I think the change was necessary as he was exceptionally good, but this also pretty much removes him from most lists.

Exactly, it‘s what I meant by „without any offense“ but you explained perfectly why that‘s a problem.

The other question for me is why people bring 30pt Finn.

20 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Exactly, it‘s what I meant by „without any offense“ but you explained perfectly why that‘s a problem.

The other question for me is why people bring 30pt Finn.

If you will look above at my previous posts, I gave my reasoning at least.

40 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

The other question for me is why people bring 30pt Finn.

I think he has a place in some lists. Especially in Chewbacca + Pods lists.

14 hours ago, CoffeeMinion said:

Today’s rules update lets some air out of the Finn Pod’s tires. Question is, is he still worth his space-salt under the New Rules Order?

I ask in part because I’ve been looking at some Transport + Pod lists. It’s cool that Cova/R4 is now decidedly a thing, but I’m honestly starting to eye BB-8 instead of Finn in the Pod.

I'm unclear as to what effect Finn has suffered from the rules update. I'll confess, I don't quite understand the ability queue, if that's the one we're talking about.

13 minutes ago, feltipern1 said:

I'm unclear as to what effect Finn has suffered from the rules update. I'll confess, I don't quite understand the ability queue, if that's the one we're talking about.

By strict, "Do what the rules say, not what any sane person would think*," Finn used to immediately remove the strain he got when he added the focus on defense. This has been corrected so he now only gets to remove the strain if he rolls the reduced number of dice.

*I don't intend this as an attack against anyone who played Finn the way the rules said to. That is just following the rules, after all. Without a TO overriding the rules, that is how he should have been played in tournament games. I am a little skeptical of anyone who thought this was how Finn was supposed to work, though.

1 hour ago, Squark said:

I am a little skeptical of anyone who thought this was how Finn was supposed to work, though.

There are several reasons that made it likely:
1. Adding a blank has literally no effect besides the 14% chance of using heroic/elusive at an extra cost. That would be hilariously bad because he has no evade action or way to use that blank.
2. But adding a blank on offense has an effect because he can have a target lock, adv optics, Rose, etc.
3. To make the defensive use good, you have to add C3PO or PC, for 6 or 8 pts. That's a huge increase of 21 or 28% of his base cost and roughly equivalent to adding LukeGunner to Han.
4. It is also not too good in comparison to other ships. Concordia faceoff can add an evade on every attack. Finn can do it once, or twice if you invest a lot of extra points. Similarly, Rose can reroll on every roll.
5. Not removing the strain would effectively remove the whole "when defending" part from his ability. It means he will explode on the next attack.

I had written the above list some point during summer, and I was now shown wrong by FFG. we'll see if point 5 will be correct.

(Edit2: the reason I even mention this is because Finn was not an NPE but seriously undercosted. It seems like a wasted opportunity to use a rules adjustment on something like this when a simple points increase was enough. I hope FFG is as willing to adjust rules on more pressing issues.)

2 hours ago, SabineKey said:

If you will look above at my previous posts, I gave my reasoning at least.

I saw, but I don't understand and thus I disagree.

Finn adds a focus on defense OR offense. That turns him into a just slightly better Wampa offense wise, and roughly equal defense with 3agi 3 hull vs 2agi 4 hp, IF he is not attacked. If he is attacked - as wampa - then he's a slightly more durable Wampa. Finn takes 1.94 damage (50% of HP), Wampa takes 1.55 damage (50% of HP). Wampa has a higher chance to explode, but also a higher chance to take 0 damage.

Don't get me wrong, that's ok, Wampa can be made good by Iden and swarm tactics. But Finn, too, then needs other parts to make him really worth it. Otherwise he's always pushed aside by better pilots.

(edit: And that's IMO the case in the tidepod list with Chewie)

2 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

There are several reasons that made it likely:
1. Adding a blank has literally no effect besides the 14% chance of using heroic/elusive at an extra cost. That would be hilariously bad because he has no evade action or way to use that blank.
2. But adding a blank on offense has an effect because he can have a target lock, adv optics, Rose, etc.
3. To make the defensive use good, you have to add C3PO or PC, for 6 or 8 pts. That's a huge increase of 21 or 28% of his base cost and roughly equivalent to adding LukeGunner to Han.
4. It is also not too good in comparison to other ships. Concordia faceoff can add an evade on every attack. Finn can do it once, or twice if you invest a lot of extra points. Similarly, Rose can reroll on every roll.
5. Not removing the strain would effectively remove the whole "when defending" part from his ability. It means he will explode on the next attack.

I had written the above list some point during summer, and I was now shown wrong by FFG. we'll see if point 5 will be correct.

I saw, but I don't understand and thus I disagree.

Finn adds a focus on defense OR offense. That turns him into a just slightly better Wampa offense wise, and roughly equal defense with 3agi 3 hull vs 2agi 4 hp, IF he is not attacked. If he is attacked - as wampa - then he's a slightly more durable Wampa. Finn takes 1.94 damage (50% of HP), Wampa takes 1.55 damage (50% of HP). Wampa has a higher chance to explode, but also a higher chance to take 0 damage.

Don't get me wrong, that's ok, Wampa can be made ok by Iden and swarm tactics. But Finn, too, then needs other parts to make him really worth it. Otherwise he's always pushed aside by better pilots.

I believe I addressed this when giving my example of a list I used him in.

In the Chewie list I mentioned, Finn acts as bait. You shoot him and kill him, Chewie gets an action and a bonus attack (which has thus far proven quiet effective, though testing is on going). Shots at Finn bring a Chewie double tap closer, and are shots not taken by my more valuable ships. Even the other end of the spectrum of people ignoring Finn is acceptable because he can hit harder than his weight class and get some damage in. In one of the test games, my opponent went after my A-Wings and Chewie, leaving Finn alone. Because of this, I could use his ability and focus on offense, leading to Finn providing the most consistent damage, thus leading to victory.

I have a bit of a problem with you using Wampa as a comparison. Not to say I am doubting your figures, but it misses a very key distinction between the two ships: I can’t take Wampa in my Resistance lists. I know you dislike looking at things along faction lines, but it is necessary when you are discussing list building. Up until the release of the pod, the cheapest ship was the Blue Sqaudron Recruit, currently at 33 points. As I pointed out above, that’s 4 more points than Finn naked. I was frequently frustrated by the lack of filler in my Resistance lists because I’d end up being a couple of points under what I needed for a Blue Recruit. The Pod helped in this regard and I’m hoping the Fireball does as well. For “filler” points, I can get a ship in the Resistance who can hit a little harder and be a little tankier than other options open to Resistance for the price and I still stand by my comments earlier that I consider Finn a decent option over a Blue Recruit if I want those points for other purposes.

16 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

and I still stand by my comments earlier that I consider Finn a decent option over a Blue Recruit if I want those points for other purposes.

I would never tell you not to use him, not at all! If you're happy with his output/role in your list then that's great. 2.0 is narrow enough to give many ships a place even if it's not as obvious as pre-nerf Lulo or Finn.

However, I still disagree, I don't see his worth and I would say that a list with him should maybe consider different options (or factions if it's a playstyle you're after). But that's fine

2 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

My thought is that Finn is now a lot more balanced structurally, so it'll be a lot easier to give him a fair price. Finn was the most expensive Escape Pod, maybe he should now be the same as Rose or Vi.

I don’t agree about the “balance structurally”. GreenDragoon has made enough good points about why Finn worked okay in the old ruling.

If FFG wanted to up the points on him that would of been fine, but now he’s relegated to being confined to the same issues the other pods have.

Which is a clear lack of roll within the faction. They are a 4 HP, 2 agility ship with a poor dial and have no offence. So they cannot, tank/absorb fire or avoid it, nor can they impose a threat to keep it at bay.

Then you might suggest they are supposed to be support ships, lagging back. However they lack any inherent support feature and most actions are red, limiting the dial further. Plus none of the crew cards in the Resistance have any area effects for support role either. The ships abilities are seemingly there to mitigate their lack of durability but none of them are likely to endure multiple 3 dice attacks.

I certainly agree Finn needs a points decrease now he’s been reduced to mediocrity. It also might be true for all of the pods. If they are simply filler than price then as such.

11 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

I would never tell you not to use him, not at all! If you're happy with his output/role in your list then that's great. 2.0 is narrow enough to give many ships a place even if it's not as obvious as pre-nerf Lulo or Finn.

However, I still disagree, I don't see his worth and I would say that a list with him should maybe consider different options (or factions if it's a playstyle you're after). But that's fine

Okay. But if you would indulge me, I would be curious as to what you would present as other options. My Chewie list can comfortably afford 31 points for the ship slot Finn is currently in. Not really willing to sacrifice more as I believe the other pieces are working as intended and fear further strip downs would have negative impacts as a whole. If you feel Finn isn’t worth it, then what is a better Resistance piece for the 31 point budget?

26 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Okay. But if you would indulge me, I would be curious as to what you would present as other options. My Chewie list can comfortably afford 31 points for the ship slot Finn is currently in. Not really willing to sacrifice more as I believe the other pieces are working as intended and fear further strip downs would have negative impacts as a whole. If you feel Finn isn’t worth it, then what is a better Resistance piece for the 31 point budget?

I'd like to see that list - seems like it'd be an interesting one to try, and I've been thinking about building a Chewie list for a while.

10 minutes ago, feltipern1 said:

I'd like to see that list - seems like it'd be an interesting one to try, and I've been thinking about building a Chewie list for a while.

Certainly!

Chewie’s Swarm 2

(43) L'ulo L'ampar [RZ-2 A-wing]
(1) Heroic
Points: 44

(68) Chewbacca [Scavenged YT-1300]
(9) Rose Tico
(14) Rey
Points: 91

(29) Finn [Resistance Transport Pod]
(1) Heroic
Points: 30

(33) Blue Squadron Recruit [RZ-2 A-wing]
(1) Heroic
Points: 34

Total points: 199

56 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Certainly!

Chewie’s Swarm 2

(43) L'ulo L'ampar [RZ-2 A-wing]
(1) Heroic
Points: 44

(68) Chewbacca [Scavenged YT-1300]
(9) Rose Tico
(14) Rey
Points: 91

(29) Finn [Resistance Transport Pod]
(1) Heroic
Points: 30

(33) Blue Squadron Recruit [RZ-2 A-wing]
(1) Heroic
Points: 34

Total points: 199

Rose as a pod is equally viable in this list. Arguably more than her crew card on chewie to be honest.

You could put PerCo on Chewie and now have 6 points spare.

That might be a Greer instead of blue squad. Alternatively advanced optics for her or blue squad.

53 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Certainly!

Chewie’s Swarm 2

(43) L'ulo L'ampar [RZ-2 A-wing]
(1) Heroic
Points: 44

(68) Chewbacca [Scavenged YT-1300]
(9) Rose Tico
(14) Rey
Points: 91

(29) Finn [Resistance Transport Pod]
(1) Heroic
Points: 30

(33) Blue Squadron Recruit [RZ-2 A-wing]
(1) Heroic
Points: 34

Total points: 199

I'm kinda tempted to try that swapping Lulo for optics Greer/Tallie and put Optics on the Blue.